Youth Black Belts

[Daniel Sullivan]

We go way above and beyond the KKW test requirements

That is not difficult, and I would gather that most schools do. The KKW requirements are just enough to insure commonality between KKW schools. They expect the individual schools to add to it.

more mass means more power but most of the kids I see test have better snap than the adults. The kids usually perform a much more technically correct kick than the adults.

Most adults find the test more difficult then the children. I am not sure why there is this under estimation of what a child is capable of. When it comes to pure physical testing, children have more endurance than most adults. Yes an adult can lift more and punch and kick harder but that is mass and weight not physical ability.

I find this to be, well, weird. I believe you; you are there to see it and I am not, but my experience has been different. Most kids are usually less precise than the adults. In terms of endurance, it depends greatly on the kid and the adult, so depending upon the mix, I could see that, though again, that has not been the norm in my experience.

I did not quote the rest of your post; my only comment is that it sounds like a respectable test by any measure.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.

I would definitely not go that far.

Way too many variables to make a statement that general. Starting young does not mean much if they only go to class a couple time a week and do not practice in between, take lengthy breaks along the way (not uncommon, as kids have a good amount of their time spoken for for much of the year) or are never challenged to any great degree. Starting at a young age is an advantage, but only if the child trains consistently and correctly and is challenged appropriately along the way.

By the same token, an athletic adult who trains hard and focuses on the details, practices hard outside of class, and has the right instructor can most certainly surpass someone who has had lackluster training since they were eight.

The biggest thing that I notice about practitioners who started young and really took to it is that everything they do is very, very relaxed and natural, while those who start later in life have to work very hard to be anywhere near that relaxed and natural, and even then generally do not achieve it to the same degree. Note: that does not make them an inferior practitioner; there are a lot of other factors beyond just that.

In this, I speak from experience. I started at seven and Jet Li, I am not.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sure with punch/kick material.

You can't teach much more than that to a child because their tendons and joints are not properly grown yet and they're just not bodily aware yet to avoid serious injury to themselves or to others.

This is probably my biggest reason for being against pushing a child to a BB level before they are ready.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

I would definitely not go that far.

Way too many variables to make a statement that general. Starting young does not mean much if they only go to class a couple time a week and do not practice in between, take lengthy breaks along the way (not uncommon, as kids have a good amount of their time spoken for for much of the year) or are never challenged to any great degree. Starting at a young age is an advantage, but only if the child trains consistently and correctly and is challenged appropriately along the way.

By the same token, an athletic adult who trains hard and focuses on the details, practices hard outside of class, and has the right instructor can most certainly surpass someone who has had lackluster training since they were eight.

The biggest thing that I notice about practitioners who started young and really took to it is that everything they do is very, very relaxed and natural, while those who start later in life have to work very hard to be anywhere near that relaxed and natural, and even then generally do not achieve it to the same degree. Note: that does not make them an inferior practitioner; there are a lot of other factors beyond just that.

In this, I speak from experience. I started at seven and Jet Li, I am not.

Daniel

Yes I have to agree with you here. I am talking about the kids that starts at 4 and took no time off. The kids that in part are the masters sons or daughters. The kids that are in the dojang from open to close just about everyday. Not the kids that come twice a week for 45 minutes those two days. Not the kids that don't practice at home. Not the kids that take off from age 7 then get back into at age 20.

I will admit that I am at the extream end or the exception to the rule type kid. I will agree that most of what eveyone states is true for the most part. But just like eveything in life there are exceptions. 10 year old college students. 12 year old music geniuses. Tiger woods type golfers that were playing adults at 10 and 11 on adult courses. All I am trying to get across is that there are some out there that are way above the curve.

Yes most kids fall in that WTF (and I don't mean World Taekwondo Federation) was that?! But just about every dojang/dojo has one special above the norm kid. Now it is weather they develope or hinder such kid. If all think like most on here then such diamond will be lost. I think more people should help promote kids not hold them back. Kids are capable of way more than we give them credit for.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I will admit that I am at the extream end or the exception to the rule type kid. I will agree that most of what eveyone states is true for the most part. But just like eveything in life there are exceptions. 10 year old college students. 12 year old music geniuses. Tiger woods type golfers that were playing adults at 10 and 11 on adult courses. All I am trying to get across is that there are some out there that are way above the curve.

Yes most kids fall in that WTF (and I don't mean World Taekwondo Federation) was that?! But just about every dojang/dojo has one special above the norm kid. Now it is weather they develope or hinder such kid. If all think like most on here then such diamond will be lost. I think more people should help promote kids not hold them back. Kids are capable of way more than we give them credit for.

You just sumarized a good portion of the reasons why I do not believe in child BB's. Yes, I do feel that there are exceptions, and those exceptions should not be held back due to their age. But they are still the exception.

On the other hand, I am also a very firm believer in childrens' programs. Childrens' programs should have their own set of belts and be geared towards basics, self confidence, respect, and age appropriate physical developement, all of which can involve games and fun exercises that will build up the child and be fun. A good childrens' program benefits the child, the parents, the school, and ultimately, the community. A childrens' program should be a childrens' program. If you have a Martial Mozart, he should be shifted to a regular class. Kids graduating from the childrens' class and moving into the regular class should then start at whatever belt comes right after white belt and should start getting a traditionally structured MA class with tighter discipline, greater regimentation, and a focus on technical execution of the material.

On the subject of a regular class, I feel that once kids get about middle school, they should be in an age appropriate regular class. By regular class, I mean a rigorous class, the same that I would expect a twenty year old to be in. By age appropriate, I mean from about 6th grade through about freshmen year of high school. Sophomore year, kids are either fifteen going in, or will be fifteen that year and should be in with the older teens and adults.

My reason for an age appropriate class is that tweens and high school freshmen can still be held to the same standard as the adults, but can be worked with to help bring up their maturation and also not be subjected to a level of sparring for which they are not physically ready. Mentally though, middle schoolers and freshmen are ready for a regular class.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Another skill set children have trouble with: kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc. Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.

I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?

But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools. There are some exceptions, thankfully.

Has this topic been addressed in MT before? I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?


Has this topic been addressed in MT before? I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.

Sounds like a good idea for a new thread to distract us all from the recurring theme of kiddie belts, though it is certain to creep into that topic as well.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?

I think it's too much at once to take in. Keep in mind a big of part of martial arts is learning to move and strike with your whole body while maintaining a concept of self in the center (dan tien, whatever). Now you want to add in a weapon that will extend that concept of centeredness into a potentially much bigger zone? How do you even explain concepts like centering and rooting to a child without dumbing it down to where the discussion is at a pointless level and where you in fact start introducing incorrect elements because you are trying to use other words? Moreover, where do you get correct, scaled down versions of the weapons for children without selling the farm? The foam trash for sale is a non-starter in my opinion as they actually promote WRONG technique because of their weight and lack of resistance.

Has this topic been addressed in MT before? I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.

I learned the bo and the nunchaku at my "Texas Tae Kwon Do" school, but the teacher pulled the material from his studies in karate. Luckily he taught me rather well, so when I later hooked up with a kobudo teacher from the Taira lineage my prior learning served me well.

I understand Mr. Kim Soo's Chayon-ryu system also contains weapon work. If you backtrack through his lineage and find other Korean teachers that still practice the pre-Kwan unification curricula, you will likewise find what exists as kobudo inside tae kwon do.

 

[miguksaram]

I think it's too much at once to take in. Keep in mind a big of part of martial arts is learning to move and strike with your whole body while maintaining a concept of self in the center (dan tien, whatever). Now you want to add in a weapon that will extend that concept of centeredness into a potentially much bigger zone? How do you even explain concepts like centering and rooting to a child without dumbing it down to where the discussion is at a pointless level and where you in fact start introducing incorrect elements because you are trying to use other words? Moreover, where do you get correct, scaled down versions of the weapons for children without selling the farm? The foam trash for sale is a non-starter in my opinion as they actually promote WRONG technique because of their weight and lack of resistance.

Age does play a factor. We have found that younger kids tend to take a while longer to figure things out. It happens, but just at a slower pace. You can get smaller weapons for the kids. Century makes bo, sai and kama on smaller sizes and they are not the padded ones.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up

I wish that Bob was halucinating, but he is right. It is everywhere. And in some cases, worse than what he described.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Worlds apart from "real" kobudo practice, ATC. I understand you've been exposed almost exclusively to sport weapons work...If you're that interested do some research into traditional weapon work, the grips, the weight of the weapon, etc. The pretty twirling you see with the ultralight staves at those ISKA tournies just can't be done with a bo of the correct weight and dimensions, unless you're a big strong man with super strong wrists and fingers.

Aside from that, look at the TECHNIQUE of the staff wielder. It's obviously just fast and flashy and would not stand against someone wielding a staff AGAINST them. The blocks wouldn't hold, the strikes couldn't pop, and so on.

Not trying to be rude, but come on. ISKA?

I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since Gorilla started this thread and his son is twelve, and as the age of twelve has been mentioned several times on this thread as too young for a first degree BB, I would like to point out that twelve is a bit of a nebulous age in regards to kids' first degree black belts.

Here is a scenario to consider:

At Kim Norris Lee's Traditional Taekwondo Academy (does not exist, but it sounded cool), two students join one Friday night in 2007.

Student 1: A lady five feet, two inches tall who weighs 108 pounds joins the school at the age of twenty. She wants to be able to feel more secure on campus as a young lady away from home (she just transferred from a community college to a larger university to finish her degree work and is away from home for the first time).

Student 2: A ten year old girl who is teeny tiny and cute as a button. There have been reports of gang activity in the area and the parents want their little girl to be able to defend herself. Both go to class four days a week and practice in between classes. Both attend seminars when available, compete (and do well) in tournaments, work their backsides off and really do well.

Two years go by.

The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing. It is a good day; they have both worked hard and looked forward to this day. Both have improved tremendously since starting. Both attended the same class. Both are equally good in any visible way. Only one thing has changed significantly: when the little girl started, she was teeny tiny and came up to the twenty two year old's shoulder. Now, at twelve, she is five foot three, weighs 110 pounds, and can really take it to her twenty two year old counterpart.

They test, they both test well, they spar the same selection of opponents. They spar eachother. The test ends. Both students pass. Teach presents them each with their certificates and a black belt. The twenty two year old has a certificate that reads, "First dan" while the twelve year old has one that reads, "First poom."

Now, the twenty two year old and the mom of the twelve year old have become good friends and join Martialtalk and post about spanking new black belts!! The twenty two year old is given a whole host of congratulatory replies. The mom of the twelve year old gets a few of those, but also gets a few of these:

"Your kid is twelve. She is not a real black belt."

In what way is that twelve year old girl's black belt any less real or less earned than the twenty two year old lady's in this scenario?

Before you say that I have come up with the one scenario that would be the exception, it is not that uncommon. I could easily substitute twenty two year old woman with twenty two year old male college student and a twelve year old junior high student who are of equal physical stature and began training at the same time. And yes, I have seen it happen minus the Martial talk part.

Yes, I do feel that twelve is too young for a third degree, both poom or dan, but for a kid to earn his or her first black belt, there are twelve year olds who certainly can make the cut.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Age does play a factor. We have found that younger kids tend to take a while longer to figure things out. It happens, but just at a slower pace..

How young are we talking about? 2 - 7 maybe but 8 and up are pretty aware and pick things up quite fast. Most 10 year olds can be shown a form maybe twice and boom they got the basic moves. Yes the details need to be refined but I have taught full grown adults that have taken quite a bit more time than my 10 - 14 year olds do.

 

[dancingalone]

I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.

You do realize that plenty of common household items can be reappropriated as a weapon, I hope. Shovel or rake = bo. Hand trowel = sai. Toy rifle = tonfa. And so on.

You're mistaken if you don't think kobudo practice leads to relevant weapon skills even if we don't walk across Asia in sandals carrying swords and wearing topknots. There's a whole universe of goodies out there in the traditional martial arts.

 

[ATC]

You do realize that plenty of common household items can be reappropriated as a weapon, I hope. Shovel or rake = bo. Hand trowel = sai. Toy rifle = tonfa. And so on.

Sure I do. But again you can't use them to defend yourself. I know I spent 30 days in a cell for doing such. Even though the guy I cracked with a pizza peel came into a place that I was working at used a beer bottle as a weapon demanding money. Also most times there won't be such items around. I only can name the one time and I was at a place of work. The other 100 plus fights I was in over my life time had nothing around to use but my hands.

You're mistaken if you don't think kobudo practice leads to relevant weapon skills even if we don't walk across Asia in sandals carrying swords and wearing topknots. There's a whole universe of goodies out there in the traditional martial arts.

No I am not. I have been in some real down and dirty stuff over my life time. Most I am not proud of as I was really out of hand in my younger days. Even spent time in jail for some of my stupid acts and very rarelly were there ever any practical objects that could use in a traditional MA sense. Maybe a chair and even then the action is so fast and furious that most of what is taught in a MA weapons class won't work. No one swings and then recoils when blocked and then strikes again. They just swing, push, kick and run into all at the same time.

I even use a pair of nunchucks on a guy once and split his head wide open. The guy kept fighting like nothing happened until the cops came, then when the fight was broken up and he calmed down he passed out from the hit. But he still fought like a mad man until the fight was broken up. If you think you are learning weapons to be on some battle field then you are mistaken.

Practice with a bow and then have to use a rake that you are not practicing with I bet you make a mistake just from the balance difference of the weapon. Even the any military practices with what they will use in a selfdefence situation. You can't practice with a nice weighted weapon, perfect leangth, then expect to pick up anything and use it as you think you will. Not in the heat of the momemt.

Plus all that is moot anyway cause unless your life is in danger and they better be pointing a gun or weilding a sword or stick at you, you can't use any weapon at all anyways.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot.

Not true. The JHU student who defended himself from an attacker with a nihonto, killing the attacker, was not charged so far as I know. Some state laws may actually allow for the carrying of a sword. Maryland law states that any blade over a specific length must not be concealed. Carry it openly and you may get heckled, but not locked up.

If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

I am sorry, but this is just ignorant. I could easily make the same arguement back with just a few slight changes:

If you are using your time to practice taekwondo for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any style of taekwondo in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

And if I made that comment then it would be equally ignorant.

Weapons training is only for show and nothing else.

Okay, I hope that you realize that you have just insulted everyone on this board who trains in a weapon art or weapon related koryo art.

I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.

I strongly disagree with you on this. I regularly see people around the neighborhood in the evenings who walk with sticks, from escrima stick size up to a hanbo. I am one of them. If you choose to to try to mug me, I will happily demonstrate that my skills with my weapon are most definitely not just for show. And those tonfas and short sticks the cops carry are not just for show either.

In any case, is not the whole point of learning a weapon to learn a weapon?

You do realize that in a real kobudo school, you learn to fight with those weapons, not just variations on baton twirling?

My experience with taekwondo schools is that weapons training is generally not on parity with what one receives in a formal kobudo program. There are exceptions, and in each and every one that I have personally seen, the instructor has had training in a traditional kobudo program.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.

Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here. What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.

In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques. Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.

I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful. But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so. The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it. They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities. Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.

Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.

 

[dancingalone]

The other 100 plus fights I was in over my life time had nothing around to use but my hands.

You're making an odd (and incorrect) assumption that one would not get into legal trouble from fighting barehanded. You in fact can, and there are plenty of examples of people spending their life savings defending themselves in the judicial system when they only made the error of fighting to keep themselves or their loved ones from harm's way.

If one is in imminent danger of losing one's life and one has access to something that can be used as a weapon, it seems obvious and necessary to defend oneself and worry about the legalities later.

Maybe a chair and even then the action is so fast and furious that most of what is taught in a MA weapons class won't work. No one swings and then recoils when blocked and then strikes again. They just swing, push, kick and run into all at the same time.

I think this speaks more to your incorrect conception of what staff work is than anything else. Youtube videos are a dangerous thing to view if you don't have proper context to understand what you're really seeing.

I even use a pair of nunchucks on a guy once and split his head wide open. The guy kept fighting like nothing happened until the cops came, then when the fight was broken up and he calmed down he passed out from the hit. But he still fought like a mad man until the fight was broken up. If you think you are learning weapons to be on some battle field then you are mistaken.

It sounds like you didn't have the emotional determination or the physical skill to strike this guy at the time. A nunchaku is a weapon with killing force. If you hit the correct areas of the head with a solid swing, the person attacking you will be incapacitated despite any adrenaline or drugs in his system. It's simply a function of one's body. Give enough trauma to the brain or nervous system and down he goes. You can absolutely kill someone with one blow from a nunchaku.

Practice with a bow and then have to use a rake that you are not practicing with I bet you make a mistake just from the balance difference of the weapon. Even the any military practices with what they will use in a selfdefence situation. You can't practice with a nice weighted weapon, perfect leangth, then expect to pick up anything and use it as you think you will. Not in the heat of the momemt.

I hope you mean bo and not bow as that would be different. And your premise is wrong. Practice occurs with ideal equipment. A beginner starts with as few variables as possible and then builds physical comfort and competence. He gradually grows in skill and learns more and more. This for example is why one generally starts with a bo and does not move to the eku (boat oar) until he is much more advanced, although the two weapons are essentially long sticks.

At advanced stages, one can and does adapt to the environment at hand, including the weapon. There are plenty of examples of lay people adapting something close by into a crude club and using it effectively. Why is it so incredible to think a skilled martial artist could do something similar within an activity he has spent thousands upon thousands of hours with?

Plus all that is moot anyway cause unless your life is in danger and they better be pointing a gun or weilding a sword or stick at you, you can't use any weapon at all anyways.

?

 

[ATC]

Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here. What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.

In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques. Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.

I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful. But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so. The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it. They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities. Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.

Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.

This makes sense.

 

[ATC]

Not true. The JHU student who defended himself from an attacker with a nihonto, killing the attacker, was not charged so far as I know. Some state laws may actually allow for the carrying of a sword. Maryland law states that any blade over a specific length must not be concealed. Carry it openly and you may get heckled, but not locked up.


I am sorry, but this is just ignorant. I could easily make the same arguement back with just a few slight changes:

If you are using your time to practice taekwondo for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any style of taekwondo in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

And if I made that comment then it would be equally ignorant.

Okay, I hope that you realize that you have just insulted everyone on this board who trains in a weapon art or weapon related koryo art.


I strongly disagree with you on this. I regularly see people around the neighborhood in the evenings who walk with sticks, from escrima stick size up to a hanbo. I am one of them. If you choose to to try to mug me, I will happily demonstrate that my skills with my weapon are most definitely not just for show. And those tonfas and short sticks the cops carry are not just for show either.

In any case, is not the whole point of learning a weapon to learn a weapon?

You do realize that in a real kobudo school, you learn to fight with those weapons, not just variations on baton twirling?

My experience with taekwondo schools is that weapons training is generally not on parity with what one receives in a formal kobudo program. There are exceptions, and in each and every one that I have personally seen, the instructor has had training in a traditional kobudo program.

Daniel

There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all. Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.

Flying Crane made the best point so far about the practicing of weapons to me.

Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here. What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.

In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques. Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.

I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful. But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so. The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it. They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities. Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.

Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.