Youth Black Belts

[dancingalone]

There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all. Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.

Have done, ATC.

 

[ATC]

You're making an odd (and incorrect) assumption that one would not get into legal trouble from fighting barehanded. You in fact can, and there are plenty of examples of people spending their life savings defending themselves in the judicial system when they only made the error of fighting to keep themselves or their loved ones from harm's way.

No assumptions made here as I have stated that I have been in trouble many times for fighting barehanded.

If one is in imminent danger of losing one's life and one has access to something that can be used as a weapon, it seems obvious and necessary to defend oneself and worry about the legalities later.

So true, but I have seen time and time again where ones weapon had been used againt him. Until you are in a real situation you really have no clue as to what your training will do. Unless you train for real. Meaning you really fight with your weapon as you would for real. I have seen some clubs train and practice this way. The Dog Brothers do this and have as real as you can get without killing someone tournaments as well.

I think this speaks more to your incorrect conception of what staff work is than anything else. Youtube videos are a dangerous thing to view if you don't have proper context to understand what you're really seeing.

Only only point out that you statement of kids not being able weild a weapon was not true and pointed to the YT vids as proof. Regardless of the application or practicality of the use the handleing of it is there. If they can do what is being displayed I am sure it can be translated into a more practical use.

It sounds like you didn't have the emotional determination or the physical skill to strike this guy at the time. A nunchaku is a weapon with killing force. If you hit the correct areas of the head with a solid swing, the person attacking you will be incapacitated despite any adrenaline or drugs in his system. It's simply a function of one's body. Give enough trauma to the brain or nervous system and down he goes. You can absolutely kill someone with one blow from a nunchaku.

No it sounds like you have not been in any real fights to understand that you will not alway hit what is moving in the exact place you want. Police can shoot a target standing still center mass almost everytime and practice to do so. But ask anyone that shoots how hard it is to hit a moving target.

I hope you mean bo and not bow as that would be different. And your premise is wrong. Practice occurs with ideal equipment. A beginner starts with as few variables as possible and then builds physical comfort and competence. He gradually grows in skill and learns more and more. This for example is why one generally starts with a bo and does not move to the eku (boat oar) until he is much more advanced, although the two weapons are essentially long sticks.

Yeah we were talking about the bow? Typing mistakes happen. As for you statement. I will wait until you have been it the situation. All I can tell you is that without the real experience you really no nothing. Even sports players need real sports situations to understand and apply their practice. Give my any boxer that only punches a bag and practices his skill,then put him in the ring with a guy that have been in several real matches. You guess what one will win. Practice all day with a bo then the boat oar. Does not mean you can weild a rake the same way. You yourself just stated that you have to move on to the next thing...bo to oar to something else. Well that something else better be a rake if you are going to use rake.

At advanced stages, one can and does adapt to the environment at hand, including the weapon. There are plenty of examples of lay people adapting something close by into a crude club and using it effectively. Why is it so incredible to think a skilled martial artist could do something similar within an activity he has spent thousands upon thousands of hours with?

people win the lottery every day. People make lucky guesses everyday. Lay people get luck with their swings too. Just becasue something happens does mean it will happen that way everytime. Sometimes stuff just happens. Well practiced people get beat by lay people everyday as well.

 

[ATC]

Have done, ATC.

Done what? Carried you weapon to class? Or you carry it around with you for protection on a daily basis? Or both? Then you are in the small percentage, You are either on one side or the other. I just walked around my office and not one person has anything on them. About to step out for lunch and I will let you know how many I see with a sword or bo or any weapon.

 

[dancingalone]

Ad hominem attacks. I'm disappointed. You lack substance, ATC, when you opine about kobudo. I'll let my prior responses (as well as yours!) stand.

By the way, "have done" means you should give up. It's clear from your last posts on this that you're more interested in arguing and saving face than learning or sharing anything. 'Have done' is the same as saying 'enough'.

 

[ATC]

Ad hominem attacks. I'm disappointed. You lack substance, ATC, when you opine about kobudo. I'll let my prior responses (as well as yours!) stand.

By the way, "have done" means you should give up. It's clear from your last posts on this that you're more interested in arguing and saving face than learning or sharing anything. 'Have done' is the same as saying 'enough'.

I have already stated that the person that made the most sense to me was Flying Crane. His point had merit and was practicle. To "me", yours was not.

As for the have done, I really did not know what you meant.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Anyone bother to read the first post in this thread. It is about youth black beltd not who carries what weapon or if anyone uses weapons practice for real. Please get back to the original subject of the thread. This thread is way to long for me to try to seperate it into a weapons thread and a youth black belt thread.
If you still want to discuss the weapons aspect start a thread and refrence posts in this one if you wish


that being said yes i do walk with certian weapons on me and yes walk with what can be considerd a bo staff at times. i live in a small country comunity and there are enough hills in it so no one thinks twice about someone with a large walking stick

Youth black belts well personaly I am against them but I have to say I judged with a 11 year old bb this last weekend and am happy to say he did extreemly well. A couple of us questioned his points on a certian Kata and he gave reasons "a - f" why he scored it the way he did. He was consistant in his scores and usualy right with everyone else in their evaluation of the compeditors. He asked questions before the weapons forms and empty hand forms and when with what he was told to look for. It was his first time judgeing and he did one hell of a good job.
I asked him some questions about his schoola nd association after we where done judgeing and he had the answeres and seemed to have more of a realistic view of the art then many adults

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all.

You could say the same thing about unarmed fighting. Out of the thousands of people studying TKD, most will never be in a real fight. and of those who have, there are plenty who have had it not work for them, so there iis no point making the distinction with weapons.

In any case, the weapons training grafted onto most TKD classes is generally of a much lower caliber than the TKD classes themselves and only serves to keep people interested and give them something new and cool to learn.

Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.

I see more people with sticks than I do with guns, but I am sure that you would not consider training in the use of a firearm to be a waste of time.

Having said that, every cop or security guard that you see carries a tonfa or a billy club or similar wooden striking instrument or a multi-cell flashlight of the same length. Every tow truck driver has a nice iron bar of approximately the same length. Last I checked, half the adult population carries a pocket knife.

The subject of improvised weapons has already been mentioned and you dismissed it because it did not work for you.

Effective weapons training is not about becoming expert in a specific weapon or weapon group, but about learning the principles of weapon use. If you effectively train in multiple weapons (as weapons, not as showmanship aids), the principles become clear. No swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's? How about newspapers? Magazines? Ever beat up someone with the New York Times? Rolled up a newspaper can be used as an effective weapon. How about that flashlight? How about a cane?

Very few people receive truly effective weapons training. Effective training means sparring. Free sparring. Unchoreographed sparing. If the program has no sparring or nothing but one steps, then it is not an effective program. It may be traditional and authentic to the extent that its practices are authentic, but without some kind of free sparring, it is ineffective for teaching you to use the weapon to defend yourself.

For those of us who do receive effective weapons training, I can assure you that it is not a waste of time.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anyone bother to read the first post in this thread. It is about youth black beltd not who carries what weapon or if anyone uses weapons practice for real. Please get back to the original subject of the thread. This thread is way to long for me to try to seperate it into a weapons thread and a youth black belt thread.
If you still want to discuss the weapons aspect start a thread and refrence posts in this one if you wish


that being said yes i do walk with certian weapons on me and yes walk with what can be considerd a bo staff at times. i live in a small country comunity and there are enough hills in it so no one thinks twice about someone with a large walking stick

Youth black belts well personaly I am against them but I have to say I judged with a 11 year old bb this last weekend and am happy to say he did extreemly well. A couple of us questioned his points on a certian Kata and he gave reasons "a - f" why he scored it the way he did. He was consistant in his scores and usualy right with everyone else in their evaluation of the compeditors. He asked questions before the weapons forms and empty hand forms and when with what he was told to look for. It was his first time judgeing and he did one hell of a good job.
I asked him some questions about his schoola nd association after we where done judgeing and he had the answeres and seemed to have more of a realistic view of the art then many adults

Sorry; you posted while I was typing.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

every cop or security guard that you see carries a tonfa or a billy club or similar wooden striking instrument or a multi-cell flashlight of the same length.

It's their job to carry these weapons, They fall into the exception group.

How about a cane?

Good one. Now that's something that a person (not all, but the ones that have to use one) will have with them all the time. They even have classes just for cane useage.

Very few people receive truly effective weapons training. Effective training means sparring. Free sparring. Unchoreographed sparing. If the program has no sparring or nothing but one steps, then it is not an effective program. It may be traditional and authentic to the extent that its practices are authentic, but without some kind of free sparring, it is ineffective for teaching you to use the weapon to defend yourself.

For those of us who do receive effective weapons training, I can assure you that it is not a waste of time.

Daniel

Now we are on the same page. I did mention this also and pointed to the Dog Brothers as one org that did such training.

 

[Gorilla]

Since Gorilla started this thread and his son is twelve, and as the age of twelve has been mentioned several times on this thread as too young for a first degree BB, I would like to point out that twelve is a bit of a nebulous age in regards to kids' first degree black belts.

Here is a scenario to consider:

At Kim Norris Lee's Traditional Taekwondo Academy (does not exist, but it sounded cool), two students join one Friday night in 2007.

Student 1: A lady five feet, two inches tall who weighs 108 pounds joins the school at the age of twenty. She wants to be able to feel more secure on campus as a young lady away from home (she just transferred from a community college to a larger university to finish her degree work and is away from home for the first time).

Student 2: A ten year old girl who is teeny tiny and cute as a button. There have been reports of gang activity in the area and the parents want their little girl to be able to defend herself. Both go to class four days a week and practice in between classes. Both attend seminars when available, compete (and do well) in tournaments, work their backsides off and really do well.

Two years go by.

The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing. It is a good day; they have both worked hard and looked forward to this day. Both have improved tremendously since starting. Both attended the same class. Both are equally good in any visible way. Only one thing has changed significantly: when the little girl started, she was teeny tiny and came up to the twenty two year old's shoulder. Now, at twelve, she is five foot three, weighs 110 pounds, and can really take it to her twenty two year old counterpart.

They test, they both test well, they spar the same selection of opponents. They spar eachother. The test ends. Both students pass. Teach presents them each with their certificates and a black belt. The twenty two year old has a certificate that reads, "First dan" while the twelve year old has one that reads, "First poom."

Now, the twenty two year old and the mom of the twelve year old have become good friends and join Martialtalk and post about spanking new black belts!! The twenty two year old is given a whole host of congratulatory replies. The mom of the twelve year old gets a few of those, but also gets a few of these:

"Your kid is twelve. She is not a real black belt."

In what way is that twelve year old girl's black belt any less real or less earned than the twenty two year old lady's in this scenario?

Before you say that I have come up with the one scenario that would be the exception, it is not that uncommon. I could easily substitute twenty two year old woman with twenty two year old male college student and a twelve year old junior high student who are of equal physical stature and began training at the same time. And yes, I have seen it happen minus the Martial talk part.

Yes, I do feel that twelve is too young for a third degree, both poom or dan, but for a kid to earn his or her first black belt, there are twelve year olds who certainly can make the cut.

Daniel

As I stated when I restarted this thread. The Master was going to put him through a 3 month testing period. We have spoken again and we both agree that moving forward with his 3rd poom at this time is a bit premature and that we will rethink this at 15. My daughter will move forward with her 2nd Dan she is 15. We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years.

The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age. My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD. They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's. Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians. Both wan't to own schools in their 30's. They see TKD as a life long adventure. I never have to tell them to get ready to train. They do it themselves. I would not have chosen Martial Sport for my kids. This was their choice. As a parent I support their passion because I see their dedication as rare and something that will be a great advantage as they move into adulthood. My daughter has given up soccer(ODP caliber) to pursue he dreams. I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age. I am not sure if their dreams will come true but the one thing that I am sure of is that they will put in the work to achieve them. In the end the most enjoyable part is to watch them grow into successful young adults.

 

[Flying Crane]

We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years.

The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age. My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD. They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's. Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians. Both wan't to own schools in their 30's. They see TKD as a life long adventure. I never have to tell them to get ready to train. They do it themselves.

in my mind, the question that rises is: if they are so dedicated and self-driven to train at such a young age, why do they need to be motivated with rank? If they are so in love with the art, then they ought to understand that their hard work and dedication is what is important, and rank will come later when it's more appropriate. But of course when the teacher is willing to give rank to youngsters, it sets the expectation.

I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age.

this was me, actually, in a different art and minus the Olympic issue and minus the desire to own a school.

I started when I was 13, and I trained like a maniac, without anyone telling me to. I just got up every day and did it, for hours at a time. Earned my shodan at age 16.

Gradually I drifted away from my original art and into different arts. I continued to train like a maniac, because I just love the martial arts. I received some other ranking along the way, but nothing higher than a shodan equivalent.

Eventually I drifted back to my original art, and completely retrained as an adult. I even tested for shodan all over again, under a new teacher. The years away meant that I had forgotten a lot of things, but I also suspected that I was a bit young when I first earned shodan, and maybe wasn't quite ready yet. I think my first teacher could have held back until I was a bit older, and I would have been better for it. But he didn't, and that's life.

At any rate, now it's been 25 years since I began, and I'm still a shodan.

Why are people in such a hurry to get rank? I don't get it.

 

[Gorilla]

in my mind, the question that rises is: if they are so dedicated and self-driven to train at such a young age, why do they need to be motivated with rank? If they are so in love with the art, then they ought to understand that their hard work and dedication is what is important, and rank will come later when it's more appropriate. But of course when the teacher is willing to give rank to youngsters, it sets the expectation.



this was me, actually, in a different art and minus the Olympic issue and minus the desire to own a school.

I started when I was 13, and I trained like a maniac, without anyone telling me to. I just got up every day and did it, for hours at a time. Earned my shodan at age 16.

Gradually I drifted away from my original art and into different arts. I continued to train like a maniac, because I just love the martial arts. I received some other ranking along the way, but nothing higher than a shodan equivalent.

Eventually I drifted back to my original art, and completely retrained as an adult. I even tested for shodan all over again, under a new teacher. The years away meant that I had forgotten a lot of things, but I also suspected that I was a bit young when I first earned shodan, and maybe wasn't quite ready yet. I think my first teacher could have held back until I was a bit older, and I would have been better for it. But he didn't, and that's life.

At any rate, now it's been 25 years since I began, and I'm still a shodan.

Why are people in such a hurry to get rank? I don't get it.

Like I said most people don't understand. They wan't to own a school and be able to give rank. If you are a 1st Dan you will not able to do that through a organization (kukiwon). I would not say he is motivated by rank more like competition at this point. I would say that rank is something that he wants for the future. The one thing that is for sure on most BBS you will find someone who will find the cloud in the silver lining.

 

[Flying Crane]

Anybody remember the documentary film BUDO? I believe it was filmed in perhaps the 1970s or so, about the Japanese martial arts. I recall portions of the film showed children training, and many of them were wearing black belts. I guess there is precedence for it.

I do not know how old the children in the film were. I haven't watched the film in 10 or more years, but my recollection is that they may have been early to middle teens. They did not look like young adults, say 17 or older.

I dunno. I saw a quality in their movement and attitude that was just very different from what I see in the vast majority of young black belts in this nation, in most of the very commercial schools. Of course it was a film and what I interpreted from my viewing isn't necessarily accurate. But that's what I recall. Hard to describe exactly.

anybody else see this film?

 

[Twin Fist]

Here is a scenario to consider:



Two years go by.

The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing.

two year BB's?

CRAP

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

two year BB's?

CRAP

Two years to BB is not ideal, but I picked the two year time frame because it is common in many TKD schools and because from ten to twelve, a kid can grow a lot, some to the size of some adults.

Also, unless the hypothetical gal actually came on and said, "I got a two year black belt," nobody on here would say anything but 'great job' to her.

I could easily alter the number for the little girl to five years; kid starts at seven, gets her BB at twelve, while the young lady starts at twenty and gets hers at twenty two, with nobody questioning her legitimacy to wear it.

In that instance, you have student with a longer training period, equal physical traits (height and weight), who is awarded a black belt with her poom rank. The two year BB gets a free pass to the black belt club here on MT while the twelve year old's mom is told that her daughter's BB is fake.

Personally, if it were my school (meaning the school I dream of opening one day, not the school where I train and teach kendo), I would put the twelve year old in a poom belt (BB is for dan ranks, period), and keep the twenty two year old around for at least another year (more than likely two) before even considering testing her for first dan.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As I stated when I restarted this thread. The Master was going to put him through a 3 month testing period. We have spoken again and we both agree that moving forward with his 3rd poom at this time is a bit premature and that we will rethink this at 15. My daughter will move forward with her 2nd Dan she is 15. We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years.

The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age. My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD. They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's. Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians. Both wan't to own schools in their 30's. They see TKD as a life long adventure. I never have to tell them to get ready to train. They do it themselves. I would not have chosen Martial Sport for my kids. This was their choice. As a parent I support their passion because I see their dedication as rare and something that will be a great advantage as they move into adulthood. My daughter has given up soccer(ODP caliber) to pursue he dreams. I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age. I am not sure if their dreams will come true but the one thing that I am sure of is that they will put in the work to achieve them. In the end the most enjoyable part is to watch them grow into successful young adults.

I understand finding one's passion at an early age quite well. Passion for the art and parental support is independent of what is appropriate with regards to rank.

Given that a first dan at fifteen would make third by the time they graduate high school, it is not exactly crimping their dream to wait until eighteen to have three stripes on their belt.

As it is, the Kukkiwon has no minimum age for any poom rank except fourth poom. That is eighteen, and in my opinion, too young for anything resembling a fourth degree.

Now, my opinion what rank is appropriate to what age is likewise, independent of whether or not a student is deserving. I do not feel that it is right to devalue the kid and his or her accomplishments. My criticism is aimed at the organization and school owners in general who have perpetuated the practice.

In no way am I putting down your kids.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

I would put the twelve year old in a poom belt (BB is for dan ranks, period),.Daniel

I am confused. The rank is poom that we all talk about weather we say BB or one not. Poom is the rank Black just happens to be the color of the belt choosen by the instructor to give out. But the belt says poom on it and so does the cert. So I am not sure if the problem is BB or Dan. Even if they wear the standard half red half black belt many still call it a black belt. Jr. is infered.

Even when you register for WTF sanctioned events they ask what poom and you put 1st poom on the application and then they say you fight black belt division, not poom belt divison.

Are we just arguing semantics here. Poom is not Dan we all agree. We also all agree that 10, 11 or 12, who cares could hold the rank of Jr. BB which is poom, but then we debate BB for kids. I think that Jr. is assumed when we say Black Belt because they are pooms and they are Jr's.

Also it is known in our Dojang that Dans have rank over Pooms. Pooms can not line up in front of Dans and Pooms are aware that they are Dan belts Jr.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am confused. The rank is poom that we all talk about weather we say BB or one not. Poom is the rank Black just happens to be the color of the belt choosen by the instructor to give out. But the belt says poom on it and so does the cert. So I am not sure if the problem is BB or Dan. Even if they wear the standard half red half black belt many still call it a black belt. Jr. is infered.

It is not a question of it being a problem or not. I feel that it cuts down on confusion. As I said, that is my school of thought. Keep in mind that when I started out, there were no junior black belts. First dan got a BB, everything below a colored belt of some kind.

when you register for WTF sanctioned events they ask what poom and you put 1st poom on the application and then they say you fight black belt division, not poom belt divison.

Given that the WTF regulates sport taekwondo, how they designate belt colors to rank is unimportant to me. But yes, you are correct.

we just arguing semantics here. Poom is not Dan we all agree. We also all agree that 10, 11 or 12, who cares could hold the rank of Jr. BB which is poom, but then we debate BB for kids. I think that Jr. is assumed when we say Black Belt because they are pooms and they are Jr's.

Also it is known in our Dojang that Dans have rank over Pooms. Pooms can not line up in front of Dans and Pooms are aware that they are Dan belts Jr.

Arguing? No. You and I are having a spirited but friendly discussion.

Yes, it is a bit of a semantic, but an important one. You and I are pretty much on the same page; the only area where we differ is on how a poom rank should be represented in terms of the belt.

Keep in mind that schools that use a black belt for the poom rank students are well within their rights to do so. It does not change the quality of training, be it good or bad.

A school could use poom belts and doboks, retest poom students when they are old enough for dan conversion, take four years to get to black belt, and seemingly have all of the details in place to mark them as 'not a McDojo' and still be a lousy school.

On the other hand, a school could have the very best teaching staff in the state, turn out the best students, and put BB's on ten year old pooms and have a BBC because it is the only way for them to survive in the market. It does not change the quality of the teaching. And while I would disagree with the belt practice, that is still the school that I would want to train at.

Really, all that I care about in a school is the quality of the teaching. If I am getting the best instruction possible, the rest is a matter of personal preference.

Daniel

 

[mango.man]

This might be a subject for another topic, but since it has been touched on in this thread, I will put it here:

If it is improper for the student to ask the master "When can I test?", would it also be improper for the student to tell the master "I am not ready to test."?

If the master wants to test a 9 year old for 2nd poom, who is that student to say "no, I'm only 9", just like a 9 year old student should not be pulling on the master's dobak every 10 minutes saying "when can I test, when can I test?"

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This might be a subject for another topic, but since it has been touched on in this thread, I will put it here:

If it is improper for the student to ask the master "When can I test?", would it also be improper for the student to tell the master "I am not ready to test."?

If the master wants to test a 9 year old for 2nd poom, who is that student to say "no, I'm only 9", just like a 9 year old student should not be pulling on the master's dobak every 10 minutes saying "when can I test, when can I test?"

I agree. The guy I started training with stayed at my belt level until 7th gup. Two weeks before he was due to grade he told our instructor that he didnt feel he was where he wanted to be physically to go to the next belt and he ended up skipping the grading. Some people didnt understand this as the instructor thought he was ready and he had waited the required time. He ended up skipping the grading and got his black belt after I got mine. He is a much better black belt for having been honest enough with himself rather than just grading because he could. I felt his actions were commendable and it would be better if more people shared his attitude.