You WILL get cut if someone has a knife. I disagree....

[Jimmythebull]

Maybe watch this chaps

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I pretty much wrist lock throw/strip everything. Or kotageshi everything So it doesn't matter if I have any sort of intimate knowledge of what I am grabbing.

I disarmed a guys packet of cigarettes once thinking he was going for a knife.

Mabye not kotageshi. Whatever the one is where you go under the arm.

My thought on basic firearm training is mostly so they don't get one in their hands and accidentally fire it. Mind you, it's a pretty unlikely circumstance, but has a big enough downside and obvious mitigation.

I'm having trouble picturing the lock you're talking about. When you say "under the arm", are you stepping under with a pivot to make a twisting lock?

 

[drop bear]

My thought on basic firearm training is mostly so they don't get one in their hands and accidentally fire it. Mind you, it's a pretty unlikely circumstance, but has a big enough downside and obvious mitigation.

I'm having trouble picturing the lock you're talking about. When you say "under the arm", are you stepping under with a pivot to make a twisting lock?

Yeah. Because the elbow flares and gives you that gap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. Because the elbow flares and gives you that gap.

That brings it to two I can think of off the top of my head. I'll try to find a video with both - curious about your live experience with one or both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That brings it to two I can think of off the top of my head. I'll try to find a video with both - curious about your live experience with one or both.

Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:

I can't find a video of the other. Most arts would consider it a variation of kote gaeshi - it's basically the same, except done from the outside of the hand (you're grabbing the hand with the fingers aimed at you, rather than back at them) with a pulling motion to activate the twist at the end, and can be reached by stepping under the arm (which helps extend the shoulder). I don't know if that description helps at all. If I find a video of this version, I'll post it.

Of course, if you can find a video of the version you're talking about, I'd love to see it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:

I can't find a video of the other. Most arts would consider it a variation of kote gaeshi - it's basically the same, except done from the outside of the hand (you're grabbing the hand with the fingers aimed at you, rather than back at them) with a pulling motion to activate the twist at the end, and can be reached by stepping under the arm (which helps extend the shoulder). I don't know if that description helps at all. If I find a video of this version, I'll post it.

Of course, if you can find a video of the version you're talking about, I'd love to see it.

Do the hand transfer without the step through just a slight 45 step in the direction he moves.
Bring their hand into your chest. It avoids exposing the back / neck that many have issues with for this type of technique.

 

[Holmejr]

My instructor does not allow videos. But man, some of those posted videos are are dangerous. If you don’t stop momentum, control the weapon and beat the crap out of the assailant you’re opening yourself up for disappointment. The assailant(s) also have other weapons that you still have to isolate or nullify (hands/feet,etc). We do some hard knife speed training, sometimes with baby oil to simulate sweat and it’s radical even with a aluminum practice blade.

With that said many if not most FMA videos just show a small segment of the total technique or encounter. They’re a paranoid bunch LOL!

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, CA

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do the hand transfer without the step through just a slight 45 step in the direction he moves.
Bring their hand into your chest. It avoids exposing the back / neck that many have issues with for this type of technique.

We practice that version, as well. With the step-under, you should have control of the arm before stepping, which would lock the shoulder. If the shoulder's locked, there's not much they can do with your back. If you don't feel that control, the step shouldn't happen.

 

[skribs]

I think a lot of these things are blanket statements that are helpful to some, harmful to others, and most free-thinking people will be relatively unaffected. Let's take for example: "If you try to disarm someone, 100% chance you get shot."

Some people talk on the internet or at the bar like they're a Jet Li character brought to life, just because they learned a gun defense last Thursday and were able to disarm a compliant partner. These people probably don't have full confidence in their ability (and are just boasting), or at the very least aren't planning on going to the bad side of town and picking fights with gangsters. However, they might need a bit of a reality check.

Some people might hear this and believe it. And then in a situation where someone is going to kill them, they don't fight back, because they've been conditioned that it's going to fail no matter what. Alternatively, you have people who believe it's impossible to train for, but also they'll be able to do it (without any training). Oh, and they'll be better because any training in gun defense is bad, so they're better off without it.

I think most people are going to recognize that gun defense is a low percentage situation, but sometimes low percentage is all you have. Avoid and de-escalate if possible. (Have your own weapon if possible). And if you feel it will lead to the safest outcome, then comply. But if you think the other person is going to shoot you even after you comply, then you should go for a disarm, and that disarm will be better if you have some training in the techniques and concepts that make it work.

The idea that statements need to be targeted is based on another pair of statements I would make a lot in class as an instructor: "Relax, it's okay to make mistakes," and "You need to take this more seriously, because you're making a lot of mistakes."

There were a few students that were incredibly hard on themselves if they made a mistake. One girl in particular sticks in my mind. If she messed up in class, she would get frustrated. Then she was paying more attention to the previous mistake than on what she was doing, and it would just be a downward spiral. She needed to chill out a bit. One thing that I enjoyed about teaching her is that she would come back the next class and have it fixed. I knew she practiced and worked hard. But she had a real problem getting out of her own head sometimes.

Many kids had the other problem - they're just there to hang out, and they don't put much effort in. They're not trying to improve. They've been working on a form for months and still don't even have the moves memorized. They'd rather chitchat than do repetitions.

The girl in the first group needed to be told to relax. If I tell the class to take things more serious, she might hear that and think, "I thought I was taking it serious. I need to be more serious?" If that's her takeaway, she may get even more high strung. On the other hand, if I tell the class it's okay to make mistakes, then those who are already carefree may take it as a license to mess around, because it's okay to make mistakes, right?

One of my challenges was trying to make sure that both messages got to the right kids.

 

[Alan0354]

Idle speculation with no basis in any actual data.
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured once. I was completely uninjured the other two times.
That's a sample size of one, so it proves nothing. But at least it's something other than pure speculation.

You "Supposed" to be a master, right? You still got injured one out of 3 times. You sure you did not got slight cut the other two times. Saying one won't get even a slight cut is not believable.

If OP said no serious cut, maybe it's more believable, but not even a small cut? I cannot even say I won't cut myself shaving for sure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You "Supposed" to be a master, right? You still got injured one out of 3 times. You sure you did not got slight cut the other two times. Saying one won't get even a slight cut is not believable.

If OP said no serious cut, maybe it's more believable, but not even a small cut? I cannot even say I won't cut myself shaving for sure.

“For sure” is a pretty high bar. I can’t say for sure I won’t trip walking down the stairs to my basement. But it doesn’t happen every time.

 

[Oily Dragon]

What if your opponent has one of these.

 

[Alan0354]

What if your opponent has one of these.

View attachment 28915

Are the few of the pictures you posted supposedly Japanese? I could swear they are all Chinese as I recognize the characters. I just forgot most of them after being here for 49 years and never use Chinese.............More that I was very bad in Chinese even when I was in Hong Kong!!! Believe it or not, as bad as my English writing, my Chinese writing is 10 times worst!!!

That said, I can recognize every single word on all the pictures, I can still read "ropes", "hook", "knife" those kind of simple words. I am pretty sure Japanese writing are not exactly the same, all these are "traditional" or classic Chinese writing, the modern writings in China is actually different and they look more Japanese than anything to me and I cannot for the life of me read those. They eliminate this kind of writing, only the old farts like me still know(should) these.

Like in this picture, it said fly-sky-spirit-fire-poison-dragon-gun. It's like " spiritual flying poison dragon spear " from my understanding.

Ha ha, I think there are other Chinese on this forum that can read better than me. But I am pretty sure this is in Chinese.

 

[drop bear]

Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:

I can't find a video of the other. Most arts would consider it a variation of kote gaeshi - it's basically the same, except done from the outside of the hand (you're grabbing the hand with the fingers aimed at you, rather than back at them) with a pulling motion to activate the twist at the end, and can be reached by stepping under the arm (which helps extend the shoulder). I don't know if that description helps at all. If I find a video of this version, I'll post it.

Of course, if you can find a video of the version you're talking about, I'd love to see it.

That's it. Without the outrageous set-up. I just duck under and hand fight.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Not a knife & i doubt if anyone runs around with this but... not long ago i saw on tv that a guy attacked someone with a samurai sword in the streets.
Imagine this weapon

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's it. Without the outrageous set-up. I just duck under and hand fight.

Agreed. There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups. They serve a different purpose today than they did when they were used against swordsmen.

 

[Jimmythebull]

There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups.

what exactly ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

what exactly ?

So, a lot of how those are set up was built around dealing with a swordman - either having a sword in-hand or to keep them away from drawing one. With that concern, some of the setups make far more sense than in a modern context. But they aren't taught that way.

Most - if understood well - can be adapted as tools for hand fighting and other situations. But if they are taught as rote, you just learn some overly convoluted ways to get to the techniques, without setting them up as well as you could.

 

[Jimmythebull]

So, a lot of how those are set up was built around dealing with a swordman - either having a sword in-hand or to keep them away from drawing one. With that concern, some of the setups make far more sense than in a modern context. But they aren't taught that way.

Most - if understood well - can be adapted as tools for hand fighting and other situations. But if they are taught as rote, you just learn some overly convoluted ways to get to the techniques, without setting them up as well as you could.

i agree on that & that´s why i say a knife attack never happens like in a Dojo. exactly what Emin Boztepe was saying in the video i posted. A slight change of an angle ..you´re cut. This is why i now am looking more at escrima.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Are the few of the pictures you posted supposedly Japanese? I could swear they are all Chinese as I recognize the characters. I just forgot most of them after being here for 49 years and never use Chinese.............More that I was very bad in Chinese even when I was in Hong Kong!!! Believe it or not, as bad as my English writing, my Chinese writing is 10 times worst!!!

That said, I can recognize every single word on all the pictures, I can still read "ropes", "hook", "knife" those kind of simple words. I am pretty sure Japanese writing are not exactly the same, all these are "traditional" or classic Chinese writing, the modern writings in China is actually different and they look more Japanese than anything to me and I cannot for the life of me read those. They eliminate this kind of writing, only the old farts like me still know(should) these.

Like in this picture, it said fly-sky-spirit-fire-poison-dragon-gun. It's like " spiritual flying poison dragon spear " from my understanding.

Ha ha, I think there are other Chinese on this forum that can read better than me. But I am pretty sure this is in Chinese.

Yeah, it's definitely from a Chinese version of the Wubei Zhi, these are some of the oldest extant illustrations (hundreds of years). (Hand-drawn, mind you) Copies of the Bubishi tend to age a little newer. There are also many Japanese versions of the work (Bubi shi), so there are a mix of hanzi and kanji, Chinese/Japanese figures out there depending on the exact reproduction. Illustrators have often replaced bald Asian guys for Asian guys with long, flowing hair. Little differences.

That's a Chinese fire lance, there are a lot of different versions. Basically flamethrower on a stick.

I just thought it was a funny play on the topic, what if it's not a knife, but an M80 on a stick or something more fun. Weapons make everything more dangerous.