Hi Buka,
I like your post. Thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.
I agree with some of your points, and I would like to say some of the "bad" training could have been saved or beneficial if done differently.
I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldnāt wait to get to that part of my training.
It was cool I remember as well. I saw them in the mall years before I was able to train.
The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.
Yes, I have seen this as well (And it can be cool learning). And I acknowledge this is not best or bad for many if not all.
The Hard X gives too much resistance and feedback to the opponent.
I teach something very similar and it is for footwork and hand position .
if they stab the abdomen with the right hand, and you step left about 45 degree offline, and have your right hand come down and camber their thrust off line, you have only exposed your outside of one arm. This leaves the left available for counter attacks or for the awesome disarm as you stated.
After it is cam'd offline the left then falls on top and then the wrist lock to throw can happen with two hands.
They step back out. This creates space as well.
The point for that drill is not the Disarm (for me and my students) , The point is the step and deflect offline. Create some space.
Similar idea if one steps left with the same right arm stab. Different locks and also puts you closer to their off hand those possible strikes.
The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasnāt noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You canāt very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.
I hear what you are explaining here.
The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasnāt too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.
This one I call the OMG Block he is stabbing / striking down at me.
Left hand comes up as you step right foot forward or left foot backward to help create the cross body frame.
Once contact is made then parry it down and step back with the right leg.
If the Ice pick grip then the blade can drag across the back of your arm. And then sometimes if done right be disarmed.
Still not trying to say the point is the disarm.
Step and block then step back and create space. If in position to follow up do so.
Similar tactics for the rest of the obvious strikes.
It is about the distancing and passing / flowing and not being rigid and stationary.
If I may switch away for a secondā¦..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called āEdged Weapons.ā It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasnāt for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.
If it was this film I have seen a similar film. Yes, if not ready for it it can be an issue for some.
Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, itās what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasnāt anybody else there yet. Iād just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.
And I think highly of you for your dedication to your training. It might not have been what you wanted in the end, yet, I respect the mindset you had going in. To train and to train hard.
That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.
Experience is good and it taught by someone with experience and they they teach it without any real experience it can be learned, yet I agree it is very theoretical .
This type of training needs to be refreshed at least ever other generation of student if not each.
If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.
I had seen some, by untrained people.
I was also lucky when I started that the instructor would play / test after we learned the single or basic and then see if they moved as you moved what would happen. This helped a lot.
The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?ā
You recognized it and dealt with it. I respect that.
There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But theyāre all fairly basicā¦..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife itās either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still thereās only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on itās way to you. And thatās regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.
Yes, the assassination (unseen knife) is really hard to stop.
Yes there are so many lines.
And this is why I want some basics for defense for movement and space. and pivot/ parry / pass no hard stationary blocking.
I also have seen when some others taught it early it look liked they just painted with the blade. While the edge dragging can cut, it is not as effective.
On the side the beginners are learning some stick patterns and striking styles.
These styles also apply to edge.
This stops the total beginners walking in and just learning how to go kill people and leave.
I can get a feel for them and learn and trust them.
Later I show them the bladed connection and they make lots of progress, very similar in technique you list below.
I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I donāt have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times Iāll get lucky in training, but most times not. Itās one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes Iām wearing or even if Iām in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.
I like your preparedness.
Once you do some good knife training itās a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.
This is where those striking styles come in and now the student is not just painting with the flat of the blade they are using the edge and point.
They are should be using the basics discussed above about stepping and creating space.
The use of the hand without the weapon to parry , which could be a cross body parry. A lot more difficult than an outside one, especially for beginners.
So here is where we align and I agree
While Above I think it was just your experience and I respect that it was different.
But the thing youāll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.
Yes it does.
If youāre training self defense moves against the knife when you donāt have one, youāll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.
Yes Sir.
Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
Itās, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming theyāll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.
So with knives I believe the average person has held a knife , at least a steak knife once in their life and understand the point is sharp and the edge cuts and they have that exposure from normal culture.
Firearms, are not part of the normal everyday every sit down restaurant.
So I agree and would hope that some exposure and training with a firearm would occur before training.
And as I have stated elsewhere. Use a cheap water gun with multiple shirts. People argue the paint (exploded in air) or bb bounced off and not sure if a real hit or not.
Wet is wet.
Get good with the slow reaction of water and then move to other more expensive devices to continue the training.
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Once again thank you for sharing, which gave me a chance to reply as well.
