Self defense against a knife

[Chris Parker]

@ Chris

I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.

Oh, I've seen far worse as well, that's for sure. And Emin is definately skilled in what he does; he's fast, explosive, relaxed, confident, all good things. But what was being shown was removed from the realities of knife defence in many fundamental ways. That's really all I was getting at.

Without getting into too much detail, here is the clip again, with some of the things I'm talking about highlighted:

Right. Straight off the bat he's talking about what "some other systems do", implying that some arts put the knife in a dangerous position (in front of the defender), and he's showing that by showing a very flawed grappling-style responce. That is his first trick, and is not the way things are done in such systems. Next he discredits the "grab the knife hand" idea by basically using a little trick, similar to sleight of hand. Ray Floro does a similar thing, and they're both pretty good at it, but it's not realistic at all. If you know what you're looking at, then this demo is nothing more than a way to put his own ideas over any others that may be around. Emin even goes so far as to say "Look, I don't even have to do it fast", which I find amusing as his method there (of changing his attack, including the angle, range, speed, and target) works much better for him when he does it slow. Basically, it's a trick, and it's not based in any form of knife defence reality.

His next comments that, if you can, run away, and only fight back if absolutely necessary, I agree with wholeheartedly. Same with the idea that it's better to take a cut to your forearms than a stab to the torso (although why he keeps showing the inside of his forearms I don't quite get). Then we get to something physical.

The first movement he shows is moving in to the inside, checking the attack with his rear hand (his left), and striking with his right. He accompanies this by saying that you should always use "straight shots", and not think about just going for the weapon (he then demonstrates grabbing at the wrist with both hands) because "he has asecond hand". Here's where all the disconnects happen.

Emin is not addressing any reality of what happens with both the attacker and the defender on a number of levels, most particularly psychologically, but also tactically. Psychologically speaking, someone attacks someone else when they feel they have an advantage, whether it is strength, speed, size, numbers, experience, skill, or, commonly, a weapon. And that is the situation we find here. The attacker is attacking with a perceived advantage, the weapon. In other words, the weapon is their "power", it is what is allowing them to be better, stronger etc. If you do grab their weapon (well, not the way that Emin showed here), then their immediate responce is not to strike with the second hand, it will be to try to retain/regain control of the weapon, ie their strength and advantage, their power. So what needs to be dealt with if capturing the weaopn hand is the immediate responce of trying to pull the weapon back.

With the defender, Emin is showing always moving forward into the attack, which is a high-level responce. In fact, I'd probably suggest that, if faced with an actual knife assault, Emin's immediate responce would not be what he is showing here, it would be a "fright" responce, in other words, a move back away from a sudden attack. Only after that would he possibly continue on to what he is showing here. So that's a lack of understanding, or at least addressing, of the realities of the psychological aspects of this situation.

The next gap in reality is in the attacks and defences, in terms of tactics. The attacks are from an unrealistic distance (the primary tactic for a knife assault is an ambush, close range assassination-style assault, not a lunging attack from a few metres away), fairly simple, telegraphed, and single attacks. Any cursory research into knife assaults show that this is far from the reality, and again is there to help Emin look good. His movements are tight, minimalist, skillful, explosive, relaxed, and fast. However, they are being applied against slower, bigger actions, commited to a single attack. This is further highlighted when Emin shows knife against stick, and asks for it to be done slowly, he regularly speeds up his responce to the slower attacks. Like I tell my guys, it's not really winning a race if you're in a Ferrari and the other guy is driving a go kart.

You said that:

I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.

The biggest problem I can see with what Emin is showing is that there is no control over the weapon at all. And, if you don't have control over it, then the other guy does. Add to that his habit of moving to the inside (where the weapon is strongest), which is also something I'd leave to a last resort tactic, and that's when you get cut. Bear in mind, I'm not advocating being defensive here, as that leads to being cut as well, but the flurries that Emin is showing would get him cut. A lot. Unless he was lucky enough to get a knockout straight away.

As you say, once a real blade is involved, everything goes out the window. I'd be willing to bet that once you saw the knife, your ability to consciously think through all the defences you have been taught suddenly became rather restricted. Emin's approach is to overwhelm, which can be effective if you get the other guy scared, but I'd still be rather unsure of it against a knife. The first thing that's going to happen if you get a knifeman scared is that they'll bring their knife up between their attacker (you, or whatever is making them scared) and themselves. So by coming around and not controlling the weapon, but trying to overwhelm, you are just letting them bring the knife back into play immediately. Not a good plan. And, for the record, Emin's young attacker is simply doing what many students do, being scared of his instructor, which is not giving the same result that a knifeman would give.

You also said that:

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.

I agree completely. But, and here's the thing, what Emin is showing is very much a skilled, fine-motor responce. The targeting is very fine motor, and under adrenaline is highly likely to have little effect, especially not the effect that he is showing here. The problem is that his actions do give an ability to strike back... and that strike is with a blade.

So, to sum up, the disconnects with reality are:

Distancing - too far out for the attacker.
Psychological understanding - there is no demonstrated understanding of the attacker or the defenders psychological realities.
Speed/timing - he's racing a go-kart in a ferrari.
Tactical use of the weapon - his knifeman is, frankly, not acting like a knifeman.
Tactics for the defender - rely on his size, speed, better reach, and the fact that his student will stop when he starts attacking.
Tactics for the defender - a huge gap in understanding about grappling responces, particularly when it comes to control of the weapon.

and more.

As I said, Emin is very good at what he does, but as this was presented as a very realistic approach, it should be countered with the fact that it really isn't. At all.

 

[MAist25]

The first aspect of any knife defense is recognizing the threat. I hope we both agree on that. And unfortunately this is usually the hardest thing to do, even harder than defending from the actual attack. If you are able to recognize the threat you can usually find some way to avoid it. You are right, many knife attacks are from close range and occur in rapid, savage-like attacks sometimes even until the person is dead. But the setting of where the attack takes place affects the psychology of the attacker a lot as well. If you are out in the middle of a field then the attacker feels no pressure from the possibility of being seen. Here he can stab you as many times as he wants because nobody is there to see/hear what is happening. If you are in a more populated area however, the assailant is much more likely to use a minimal amount of cuts in order to lessen the chances of being seen and to also make time for a getaway.

As for the aspect of distancing, it totally depends. Emin is facing attacks from far away. In my personal experience my would-be attacker came up very close. However, I was able to recognize the threat and CREATE distance between myself and the knife weilder. It was also apparent to me that my assailant was not experienced in knife fighting because of the fact that he showed me the blade. This is a common psychological attack used by thugs, but it is something that a trained martial artist can use to save his own life. A trained knifeman would NEVER show you his blade. He would walk close to you very naturally, concealing his weapon AND his intentions, and once he got close enough, do what he has to do. These are the attacks that are near-impossible to defend from simply from the fact that they are near-impossible to recognize!

As for the position of the knife during an attack, I think you are correct in that if you get your attacker scared then he will place the knife between himself and you. But, why would you try and scare somebody with a knife if you are weaponless? You should always try and make the person with the weapon feel in control because they are in control! However, I do believe that once that first strike comes in, that is your best chance for survival. As soon as that first strike comes in you need to block and counter and continue to counter until he physically cannot strike you again. Blocking the first strike is easy. Boxers never get hit with the first strike, MMA fighters never get hit with the first strike, and even when you spar I hope you dont get his with the first strike either. Blocking a first strike is pretty easy to do and that is why you need to capitalize on that opportunity. It is blocking the 3rd and 4th strikes that is extremely difficult to do and if you give your assailant the opportunity to deliver those 2nd, 3rd, 4th, strikes than you are a dead man.

As for the speed, I have no arguments with you there. I agree with what you say and I see it all the time in demonstrations. The attacker attacks in a half-*** way at half speed for fear of making their instructor look like a fool if their techniques dont work. The attacker attacks at half speed and the defender goes all out. This is just one of those things that you need to stress in a realistic training environment, but unfortunately many schools do not understand this concept. There really isnt anything that can be done about that on an overall level. It is just something you need to do in your own school because you actually understand this concept.

You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.

I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is offbalanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense.

To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.

 

[MA-Caver]

You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.

It is true that a good portion of people will try to flee if you start striking them. But if they're actually itching for a fight and are psyched up and ready to go then striking them could make them fight back harder. Gang members do NOT want to look cowardly in front of their peers and will continue a fight inspite of their own wounds/hurts. The concept of the "beat-ins" to be accepted into (most) gangs is the idea... will this person fight back? Cower and cringe, attempt to flee? Are you the badass that you think you are to join their gang? Lets find out.
So striking back hard and fast had better put them down and out the first time around because they may get back up and come at you harder and more determined. Likewise as you're opening the can of whup-*** on them they'll defend... they have a knife in their hands and warding and blocking puts the knife in your fist/foot's path.
An experience I had on the streets taught me this. A guy was opening proverbial can of whup *** on me, as I defended best as I could because the guy was going all out I managed to get my blade and started slashing at the incoming fists. The end of it resulted the guy having his knuckles torn open and from what I saw (attack was in daylight btw...something else to consider... not all (attacks) are in the darkest of nights), had slash marks on the back of his hands (probable tendon cuts?), to where he couldn't close his fists to strike anymore... the pain set in and he backed off and a couple of feints with my blade got him away with the obligatory verbal threats of "another time another day, watch your back, bla bla bla bla" (never saw that guy again).
Had that guy a blade himself, I sincerely doubt that I'd be here today due to the ferocity of his attack on me; sudden, without warning without any pretense. I was foolishly caught off guard and just plain lucky that day... and yes, I knew the attacker and didn't perceive them as a threat because of their mannerisms and outward attitude.

I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is off balanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense.

To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.

There are statements about grabbing and controlling the arm holding the blade. But as the Emin video stated, the attacker still has one other arm that is free. I've taught myself to toss my blade to my other hand quickly and without looking at it. Dangerous move to be sure but it's one that I practice a lot. Watch for that with anyone. Likewise watch for friends of the attacker as well.

 

[MAist25]

I completely agree that some people will certainly fight back. It is all about what is going on inside the persons head before he decides to attack. If he has it drilled in his brain that he wants to kill you and will stop at nothing to do it then yes, he will continue to fight back even as you strike him. This is when it might be a good time to try and gain physical control of the weapon. Even though he might try and strike you back, if you are relentlessly striking him it will most likely put him offbalance and in a position not optimal for returning a strike. This could allow you time to reach for and control the arm that is controlling the weapon.

As for the fact of the assailant having another hand as Emin points out, this is one point I do not totally agree with him on. I think that Chris is spot on with what he said on this matter. The weapon is this guys power. He will not even think about using his second hand, but instead focus completely on keeping control of his knife.

 

[Thesemindz]

Unless he's actually trained to use a knife. Which we have to assume. A significant portion of weapon training at our school deals with using the other natural weapons while holding a tool in your hand. We specifically teach our students NOT to fixate on the weapon. To integrate the weapon in to their established combat techniques, not to replace them with it.

Assuming that your opponent is an idiot is a good way to get yourself killed. He is, after all, smart enough to pick up a weapon when he attacks someone.


-Rob

 

[MAist25]

^ Definitely a great point.

 

[mook jong man]

As I see it there are two main methods you can use , they both have their upsides and down sides.
I don't think one is superior to the other , they are just two different ways of getting the job done.

The first one is deflect / block and simultaneously shut the computer down with a strike then grab the knife arm this is favoured in Wing Chun and Krav , the downside to this , is your only using one arm to control his arm.
The upside is , if you cause enough damage with your first strike you disrupt the multiple stabbing , piston action / sewing machine effect by the attacker.

The other method I learned in FFS is to block first with what is called a universal shield , it's just basically a double armed cover , but it protects a wide protective area.

But from this cover you can quickly control the knife arm by going into a double underhook configuration or single underhook with wrist hold , it doesn't matter the knife arm is locked in tight and can't move , then from there various strikes are applied.

You could say this is block first , then capture the knife wielding arm with both your arms and then shut the computer down.
The downside is the attacker might not get hit straight away unless with an elbow or headbutt as you are moving in , but the upside is you have a lot more control of the knife arm , and as long as you can go straight from arm capture in to blasting his base out with multiple knee strikes then there is not much chance of him using his other hand to attack you with .

I practice both methods , but from a teaching point of view if you only had 1 hour to prepare someone I would teach the universal shield then arm capture .
The simultaneous counter attack used in the first method is effective but requires a lot more training.

But whichever method you use if you don't move in fast and aggressively and keep forward pressure on the knife arm then it is simply going to retract and continue on its merry way puncturing you full of holes.

 

[Stealthy]

In my limited experience once the person has started stabbing knife survival is composed of two parts.

Part one. Getting cut repeatedly while failing to grab and hold the knife hand.

Part two. Successfully grabbing and holding the knife hand and beating them with whatever you've got. (If the grip is lost then go back to part one).

 

[MJS]

I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll comment on a few things. I'll comment on the Emin clip later, but here are some from a guy I mentioned earlier, Karl Tanswell.

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Something else to keep in mind....many times, when we see knife defense being done, we see large blades such as we saw with Emin, as well as in the Tanswell clips. Now, nothing wrong with this...hell, I have a few trainers such as we see in the Tanswell clip. But, IMO, I think its a very good idea to train with something smaller, such as pocketknife size. I have a few trainers this size. I like working with them, because IMO, alot of the time, it seperates the fantasy from reality. In other words, what you may be able to pull off, with a larger trainer, will go right out the window, when using a smaller blade.

 

[Chris Parker]

The first aspect of any knife defense is recognizing the threat. I hope we both agree on that. And unfortunately this is usually the hardest thing to do, even harder than defending from the actual attack. If you are able to recognize the threat you can usually find some way to avoid it. You are right, many knife attacks are from close range and occur in rapid, savage-like attacks sometimes even until the person is dead. But the setting of where the attack takes place affects the psychology of the attacker a lot as well. If you are out in the middle of a field then the attacker feels no pressure from the possibility of being seen. Here he can stab you as many times as he wants because nobody is there to see/hear what is happening. If you are in a more populated area however, the assailant is much more likely to use a minimal amount of cuts in order to lessen the chances of being seen and to also make time for a getaway.

Yep, agreed that recognising the threat is the beginning, that's why awareness and avoidance are the first things taught. But the rest here, no. Knife assaults are fast, sudden, and violent. They occur in public with people around with no real qualms whatsoever, so that part can be discounted.

You know what, I'm going to put a clip up here. I'm going to preface it by saying it's a little sensationalist and propaganda-driven, but the footage is genuine, and the final message is right on the money (about knowing about the way an assault happens). While no blood is seen, the knife assaults are real, so discression to be used when viewing:

As you can see, the environment isn't really that much of a consideration here, with people being assaulted in front of witnesses quite happily.

As for the aspect of distancing, it totally depends. Emin is facing attacks from far away. In my personal experience my would-be attacker came up very close. However, I was able to recognize the threat and CREATE distance between myself and the knife weilder. It was also apparent to me that my assailant was not experienced in knife fighting because of the fact that he showed me the blade. This is a common psychological attack used by thugs, but it is something that a trained martial artist can use to save his own life. A trained knifeman would NEVER show you his blade. He would walk close to you very naturally, concealing his weapon AND his intentions, and once he got close enough, do what he has to do. These are the attacks that are near-impossible to defend from simply from the fact that they are near-impossible to recognize!

I wouldn't necessarily say that someone showing you a blade means they aren't experienced with a blade, just that they are trying to scare money (or similar) out of you in this instance. Not saying that the guy was a stone cold killer, but recognising other reasons is important as well. What it does tell you, and what you can take with you, is that there is little reason to engage if there is no (immediate) threat to your life, so save yourself the potential injury and don't engage.

I would argue with your description of the more serious attacker as being a "trained" knifeman, as that's really not the case. What they are (in your description of the attacker there) is experienced, and committed to injury. Their "training" is street-level, brutal, effective, fast, and violent. But very removed from a "trained" action as might be expected from a martially trained person. And these types of attackers (the threatener in your story, the ambush assailant trained in a street-style, and a martial artist) are very different from each other. And the last one (the martial artist) is the one you will almost certainly never encounter.

As for the position of the knife during an attack, I think you are correct in that if you get your attacker scared then he will place the knife between himself and you. But, why would you try and scare somebody with a knife if you are weaponless? You should always try and make the person with the weapon feel in control because they are in control! However, I do believe that once that first strike comes in, that is your best chance for survival. As soon as that first strike comes in you need to block and counter and continue to counter until he physically cannot strike you again. Blocking the first strike is easy. Boxers never get hit with the first strike, MMA fighters never get hit with the first strike, and even when you spar I hope you dont get his with the first strike either. Blocking a first strike is pretty easy to do and that is why you need to capitalize on that opportunity. It is blocking the 3rd and 4th strikes that is extremely difficult to do and if you give your assailant the opportunity to deliver those 2nd, 3rd, 4th, strikes than you are a dead man.

Right. let's clear up a few ideas here. When I talk about "scaring" the attacker, what I'm talking about is hyping up their adrenaline with unexpected actions. Really, "fear" in this regard is high adrenaline with a negative emotional connotation (if the emotional connotation is positive, we call it "excitement"). So it's not a case of wanting to, or even trying to scare the attacker, more a recognition of what happens when you respond with an unexpected action which heightens their adrenaline levels.

In terms of making the person with the weapon feel like they are in control "because they are in control!" I don't agree with there. If it comes to physical action, and I leave them in control, with them armed with a knife, what do you think the result will be?

Next, I feel a little reality may be in order in regards to "first strikes". People are hit with the first strike all the time. Constantly. In fact, many fights are incredibly one-sided, with only one person actually doing anything offensive (hitting). There are a wide range of reasons for this, but the most important one is that people don't expect to be assaulted, hit, or stabbed. So they aren't looking for that first hit (as a boxer is, an MMA athlete is, and you are in sparring), and, as a result, get hit by it. The idea of the first hit being "easy to block" is a falacy brought on by not understanding the difference between real violence and sporting systems/sparring. They really are almost nothing alike.

As for the speed, I have no arguments with you there. I agree with what you say and I see it all the time in demonstrations. The attacker attacks in a half-*** way at half speed for fear of making their instructor look like a fool if their techniques dont work. The attacker attacks at half speed and the defender goes all out. This is just one of those things that you need to stress in a realistic training environment, but unfortunately many schools do not understand this concept. There really isnt anything that can be done about that on an overall level. It is just something you need to do in your own school because you actually understand this concept.

Ha, yeah. My guys get yelled at pretty quick if I see a Ferrari go against a Go-kart....

You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.

Now we're getting into some interesting areas.... Agreed that the brain controls the arm, but my question to you is, which part of the brain? Here's a clue, it's not the part you affect by hitting the head, unless you manage to knock the other guy out.

Okay, next let's deal with "Fight or Flight", as most don't really know what goes on in this process. "Fight or Flight" is a basic, primitive survival responce, and is there purely as an automatic, hardwired part of what has allowed human beings to survive for hundreds of thousands of years. It is not something that there is real control over, and which aspect gets triggered is not due to how someone's emotional state is. In fact, there are two dominant factors in this responce: Adrenaline, and Distance.

In short, if you have a sudden, massive adrenaline surge, and the cause of it is a distance from you, the immediate, and uncontrolable survival instinct will be to "flight". However, if you experience a sudden, massive adrenaline surge, and the cause of it is close, the overwhelming instinct is to "fight" (interestingly, if there is nothing in the unconscious that is felt, or believed to be "strong" when it comes to fighting, then that's where you get the third option, "freeze"). So the reality is that if you had started hitting this kid, he would have been unconsciously, instinctively, naturally driven by his generations old survival-driven primal brain patterns to fight. And he has a knife, something that is felt and believed to be pretty damn powerful. His initial desire to not injure you really doesn't come into it, there are plenty of cases (countless, really) where people with no intention to do harm use a weapon and injure or kill. They are crimes of passion, or put down as 'accidents', or simply recounted later as "I didn't mean to do it! I didn't mean to shoot!" etc. So why do they if they had no intention? Simple.

They were given an adrenal surge and were close, so they instinctively went to the most powerful thing they could, and used it. It may have been a use out of fear, or anger, or anything similar, but that doesn't matter. Kicking off the adrenaline by attacking will put them in a "fight" mode. So if you kick off their "fight" responce without controlling the weapon, you may as well have just stabbed or cut yourself, frankly. You try to overwhelm them, and they will employ their blade, even if just to get you back.

I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is offbalanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense.

Yes, control of the weapon is control of the weapon (physically). Hitting the head, unless getting a knockout straight away, just isn't going to do what you think it will here. This is where you will get killed, because you have just given them a bigger dump of adrenaline (making the faster, stronger, feel less pain), allowed them to keep control and use of their weapon, and, if you've knocked them back a little bit (quite likely) given them distance to launch a very fast, and powerful attack.

Here's another thing to understand, though. The natural, instinctive responce to a sudden fast action towards you is to grab at it (in order to control it, both physically and psychologically). Going against that is actually going against your instinct. And, honestly, grabbing it is a hell of a lot safer than hitting first, and then trying to catch it. MJS's clips are good examples of that, by the way.

To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.

Glad you're getting some value out of these! I do so enjoy intelligent conversation.

I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll comment on a few things. I'll comment on the Emin clip later, but here are some from a guy I mentioned earlier, Karl Tanswell.

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Something else to keep in mind....many times, when we see knife defense being done, we see large blades such as we saw with Emin, as well as in the Tanswell clips. Now, nothing wrong with this...hell, I have a few trainers such as we see in the Tanswell clip. But, IMO, I think its a very good idea to train with something smaller, such as pocketknife size. I have a few trainers this size. I like working with them, because IMO, alot of the time, it seperates the fantasy from reality. In other words, what you may be able to pull off, with a larger trainer, will go right out the window, when using a smaller blade.

Hey Mike,

Yeah, we use a much smaller blade ourselves, as folders are much more common. And these clips are much closer to what I have been talking about.

 

[MJS]

The Emin clip ( I didn't watch the entire thing) from what I saw, wasn't all that bad, but I do agree with alot of what Chris said. Anything can be made to look bad, and in this case, we see that, with Emin basically setting the technique up to fail. He talks about the things you shouldnt do, because it can be countered. Well, of course he's countering it, if he's telling the guy to do something specific.

Chris said:

"The next gap in reality is in the attacks and defences, in terms of tactics. The attacks are from an unrealistic distance (the primary tactic for a knife assault is an ambush, close range assassination-style assault, not a lunging attack from a few metres away), fairly simple, telegraphed, and single attacks. Any cursory research into knife assaults show that this is far from the reality, and again is there to help Emin look good. His movements are tight, minimalist, skillful, explosive, relaxed, and fast. However, they are being applied against slower, bigger actions, commited to a single attack. This is further highlighted when Emin shows knife against stick, and asks for it to be done slowly, he regularly speeds up his responce to the slower attacks. Like I tell my guys, it's not really winning a race if you're in a Ferrari and the other guy is driving a go kart."

I agree with this. A prison style attack is a good example. But OTOH, a knife could be pulled during a verbal confrontation, thus leading to the lunging attack, vs. the assassination style that we'd see in a prison.

When he picked up the stick...well, thats certainly a good equalizer, something that I mentioned earlier. But, I'd still rather go for the control of the weapon. Parrying, deflecting, etc, is not a bad option, but IMO, its not really doing anything to eliminate the threat. The badguy still has the blade. He also mentions the BG's other hand. Yes, this is something that is important to take into consideration. Of course, as we saw in the clips that I linked, if you're moving the guy around, its going to be hard for him to get a serious hit in, and if he does hit you, there's probably not going to be much steam behind it.

 

[Stealthy]

.....without controlling the weapon, you may as well have just stabbed or cut yourself, frankly.

QFT

A recurring theme I see watching real knife assault videos is the repetitive nature of the attacks. Most defenders even after being stabbed multiple times still vainly rely on the hope that the attacker will stop. In most cases it is not over until they take control of the weapon, succumb to the wounds or get outside help.

I think one of the problems many martial artist have with understanding knife survival is the idea that skill can overcome speed and power. While this may hold true in an unarmed confrontation, when facing a stronger and faster opponent who is also wielding a knife skill alone is not enough.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and develop speed, grip strength and power to go along with all the fancy moves.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife? do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent? the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.

i pray this never happens for their sake.

i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do. i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one. A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.

many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent. thoughts?

I'm a Boatman edged weapon defense instructor. It is based on gross motor skills and has been street-proven to be brutally effective. I do not teach the 'in a knife fight your going to get cut' routine. I believe that is negative training. Instead I explain that yes, the possibility is there but regardless of whether you are or aren't you continue to defend yourself until the threat has ceased or you've escaped.

I think most edged weapon defenses are pure crap and give people a very false sense of security. Many require refined motor skills that won't be useable under duress. Bottom line is that fancy/refined = crap and brutal/simple = effective. Also the main mistake of edged weapon defense (or any defense) is the student stopping when they've failed in practice. They don't pull off the defense, stop and then reset so they can 'try it again'. That is crappy training. If you fail to make a proper defense you immediately go into something else until you've succeeded. There are no 'do-overs' in the street. The mission is survival and the method is whatever it takes to accomplish the mission.

Also, students need to know their options in an altercation. Do they immediately go into the movement? Or do they scan their surroundings for cover, concealment and/or improvised weapons? Edged weapon defense can be as easy as stepping through a door and locking it. Or putting something big (like a car, a wall etc) between you. Or creating distance that the attacker can't close to effective range.

Things to think about.

 

[Stealthy]

...putting something big (like a car, a wall etc) between you. Or creating distance that the attacker can't close to effective range.

That's the gold right there if you ask me, I've used all of these to great effect. Furniture is equally as awesome, people tend to back off if an attack means climbing over a table or sofa.

As for creating distance, two years ago I had a gang of 5 guys(all in their twenties) try and ambush me. There was no single trigger to what was going on but rather a few minor inconsistencies. One guy was being friendly(for no reason) while another was incapable of masking his hatred, while pondering the paradox and getting concerned about how close they were(right in my face) another two guys disappeared out of my peripheral vision, one other side and both moving behind me, what really spooked me about it was the syncronicity with which they moved as in both guys simultaneously went out of view traveling at the same speed and the same distance away...Put all of this together and it equals Danger!!!

The instant the red flag went up I shot straight back faster than the guys behind me had time to fully close in(though I did brush shoulders with both of them on the way), the fellow in front had already thrown a kick at this time but I didn't even know until it hit my trailing leg(with no effect since my weight had already left it). Within a second I was five steps away staring them down and they decided I wasn't worth the hassle so they left. A few minutes later a guy wandered past me with blood pouring from every part of his body....unlucky for him but good thing it wasn't me.

Whether one of them had a knife or not I could not say but the point is a little bit of distance and removing the element of surprise can be enough to send even such a large group looking elsewhere.

 

[jasonb]

A master of the knife gives his opinion on this question.

 

[billc]

I have heard countless times the warning "you are going to get cut." I have to say that instructors who use that phrase need to amp it up more. In a beginners mind, they think cutting themselves when they are cleaning vegetables, and don't realize what "getting cut," in a real situation implies. I once suggested to a friend who was an aikido instructor that he should tell his students when they face a knife armed attacker that they may be "permanently maimed or disfigured," in an attack. I would also send them to photos of people who have survived knife attacks in the real world. I think those two things might get their mind right about how effective a weapon a knife really is. You could also point them to all the stories of untrained, violent criminals killing people with knives. That might also increase their understanding of why they need to run, rather than fight against a knife.

 

[Carol]

I have heard countless times the warning "you are going to get cut." I have to say that instructors who use that phrase need to amp it up more. In a beginners mind, they think cutting themselves when they are cleaning vegetables, and don't realize what "getting cut," in a real situation implies. I once suggested to a friend who was an aikido instructor that he should tell his students when they face a knife armed attacker that they may be "permanently maimed or disfigured," in an attack. I would also send them to photos of people who have survived knife attacks in the real world. I think those two things might get their mind right about how effective a weapon a knife really is. You could also point them to all the stories of untrained, violent criminals killing people with knives. That might also increase their understanding of why they need to run, rather than fight against a knife.

Something that really stuck with me was watching Survivng Edged Weapons and seeing the pathology photos of knife wounds. Its humbling, especially seeing the smaller stab wounds. I'm sure there are other such photos online for someone motivated to search. Gruesome as it is, that gave me a new level of respect for the knife, and how important it is to block that fist punch away because you don't know if it contains a knife

 

[Chris Parker]

Another good example, particularly if you have any "squeamish" students, who wouldn't handle the actual images and footage is Michael Janich's "Pork Man". It's a good, immediate example of exactly what a knife can do, through clothing or not, even with a very small blade.

While this clip does provide some graphic imagery, it also gives you an example of making your own "Pork Man" if you want to do similar demonstrations for your class. Other versions that Michael does include wrapping the "Pork Man" in denim (simulating jeans for a leg cut), or other clothing, as well as adding to the amount of meat to simulate larger body parts, such as legs, and mounting it vertically rather than horizontally.

 

[lklawson]

Make them do the cutting themselves.

Get some turkeys, racks of pork, etc. Hang them from a tree or mount them on a stand, and do the cutting yourself. It seems to have a lot more impact than just looking at pics. Then you can pass some pics and throw in a speech of "imagine if this were your arm."

If you do it right, you can recover the cut up meat and do a BBQ afterward.

 

[chinto]

Well, IMHO, when it comes to the knife, there is alot of crap out there. Sure, alot of stuff will work when the 'attacker' is compliant, but try the same stuff on a resisting opponent, and you'll likely end up dead. Yes, of course one should expect to get cut. As for what to do when faced with a blade...well, of course, if you can get the hell out of the situation, do so. If not, I'd look for an equalizer....anything that I can grab and use, I'll do it. I look at it like this...the guy already upped the odds by using a knife, so picking up a chair is fine in my eyes. If something isn't available, and you must go empty hand, my thoughts are K.I.S.S....anything else, as I said, is asking for trouble. Control first, and then work for a disarm, all the while using your free limbs to punish the guy.

I basically agree, the one thing I would add is that you better get " Mad Dog Mean" and be looking to KILL! you must do Maximum Damage as quickly as you can while controlling the weapon! He has initiated Deadly force against you, and you must assume he will kill you if he can. the fight will be over in seconds and you want to be alive and as uninjured as possible, their survival is irreverent!