Self defense against a knife

[TKD_SBK]

The problem with unarmed vs. knife defense training is that it's boring. I used to train weapons once a week as part of a Jiu-Jitsu program. During sparring, I would slash and stab the instructor (cop, 2nd dan) many, many times with a rubber knife before he's able to grab and disarm me. And I wasn't very good with my boxing footwork as I am now. When it was my turn, I can't get him unless he slows it down significantly and just eventually gives me his hand with the knife so I can do the move that he just taught beforehand. Yea, practice makes perfect, but it was just too boring.

MMA works so well nowadays is because there's actual competition that makes it fun and rewarding. Punching and kicking people in the head and KO'ing them during hard sparring is fun. You move up the pecking order of your gym, scare people, earn their respect, etc. Winning trophies, belts...maybe go Pro. Everybody looks up to you in the dojo, etc. You can't get this from play fighting vs. rubber knives, so most people won't become even close to being good enough at disarming someone with a knife in real life.

My knife defense = punching them in the face until they get KTFO. This is what I already enthusiastically train at, punching people. Why not do what I'm already good at? Someone stunned or wobbling towards KO-city is not going to be stabbing much.

 

[frank raud]

The problem with unarmed vs. knife defense training is that it's boring. I used to train weapons once a week as part of a Jiu-Jitsu program. During sparring, I would slash and stab the instructor (cop, 2nd dan) many, many times with a rubber knife before he's able to grab and disarm me. And I wasn't very good with my boxing footwork as I am now. When it was my turn, I can't get him unless he slows it down significantly and just eventually gives me his hand with the knife so I can do the move that he just taught beforehand. Yea, practice makes perfect, but it was just too boring.

MMA works so well nowadays is because there's actual competition that makes it fun and rewarding. Punching and kicking people in the head and KO'ing them during hard sparring is fun. You move up the pecking order of your gym, scare people, earn their respect, etc. Winning trophies, belts...maybe go Pro. Everybody looks up to you in the dojo, etc. You can't get this from play fighting vs. rubber knives, so most people won't become even close to being good enough at disarming someone with a knife in real life.

My knife defense = punching them in the face until they get KTFO. This is what I already enthusiastically train at, punching people. Why not do what I'm already good at? Someone stunned or wobbling towards KO-city is not going to be stabbing much.

I think a large part of the problem is using a rubber knife as a substitute for a knife. It wont hurt you if you get slashed or stabbed, so there is no great incentive to treat it seriously. Watch the difference when you show somebody a technique with a rubber knife, then when they get comfortable, switch to a wood or aluminum/metal trainer. They will be a lot more focused with the metal trainer.

If your idea of knife defense is you can punch someone in the head while they are stabbing or slashing at you, be prepared for a surprise. If you dont control the knife hand before you start punching their lights out, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways? There are several MMA based systems that work in weapons, not dedicated a separate night to weapons and calling themselves "integrated"

 

[Josh Oakley]

That is why i prefer steel blanks, or better yet, the shock knife.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[TKD_SBK]

I think a large part of the problem is using a rubber knife as a substitute for a knife. It wont hurt you if you get slashed or stabbed, so there is no great incentive to treat it seriously. Watch the difference when you show somebody a technique with a rubber knife, then when they get comfortable, switch to a wood or aluminum/metal trainer. They will be a lot more focused with the metal trainer.

Dude, this rubber knife hurts. It's hard, solid rubber. I'm actually trying to not stabbing him too hard, let alone with full force. I can easily poke out his eyeball with it at 20% power if I'm not to careful. We are treating the knife like it's real. This is why I can cut the instructor multiple times, because he's trying not to get slashed. If he broke the illusion that it's a rubber knife, then he'd just charge right in without any worries and subdue me.

If your idea of knife defense is you can punch someone in the head while they are stabbing or slashing at you, be prepared for a surprise. If you dont control the knife hand before you start punching their lights out, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways? There are several MMA based systems that work in weapons, not dedicated a separate night to weapons and calling themselves "integrated"

If your idea of knife defense is to control the knife hand, be prepared for a surprise. If you don't punch them in the face to KO them, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways?

See the point here? You can fail at grabbing and controlling their knife hand just the same as I can fail catching them in the KO zone with my fist and we both get stabbed. You chose to go for their fast moving hand holding the knife while I chose to punch them repeatedly in their slow to non-moving face.

So from my standpoint, should I train at knife defense which I find awfully boring and would have to start from near the beginning....including constant, dedicated training to become proficient at it in order to be worth something in a real knife attack? Or should I do what I'm already good at? Which is to punch my attacker in 'da face, which I greatly enjoy training at? About 10-12 hours religiously, every week including hard sparring for KO's and ring fights....therefore, I'm confident in my striking skills already and have tested it out quite often by knocking down or out, other trained fighters.

And another point being, I have tested out my striking abilities. While rarely have many experts really tested out their skills against a knife wielder in real life or death situations. Maybe some have, but how many times? 1? 2? 3? While I've been in thousands of 2-3 minute rounds trying to KO my opponent and vice versa.

 

[frank raud]

How many of those thousands of rounds have been against someone with a knife?

 

[frank raud]

So from my standpoint, should I train at knife defense which I find awfully boring and would have to start from near the beginning....including constant, dedicated training to become proficient at it in order to be worth something in a real knife attack? Or should I do what I'm already good at? Which is to punch my attacker in 'da face, which I greatly enjoy training at? About 10-12 hours religiously, every week including hard sparring for KO's and ring fights....therefore, I'm confident in my striking skills already and have tested it out quite often by knocking down or out, other trained fighters.

And another point being, I have tested out my striking abilities. While rarely have many experts really tested out their skills against a knife wielder in real life or death situations. Maybe some have, but how many times? 1? 2? 3? While I've been in thousands of 2-3 minute rounds trying to KO my opponent and vice versa.

So, part of your training is for ring fights, that's great, it takes a lot of guts to step into the ring. What's your knockout record? What's your knockout record before the other guy has landed a punch?

Your screen name refers to TKD, but you reference using your hands a lot. Have you switched to another art, boxing perhaps?

As I am an old, decripit guy with way more expereince in jiu jitsu and judo than boxing, would you be confident to step into a ring, bareknuckle, you with just your fists and me armed with pushdaggers? You obviously have way more experience than me in the ring arts. I would concede to not attempt headshots, only to the body. You will attempt to knock me out,I will attempt to gut you. Seem reasonable? Like your chances? Now imagine if you didn't know the other guy had a knife.

A good friend of mine, with ring proven ability to knock people out with all 4 limbs(having done it 60 + times)over his professional career, does additional training for self defense (including knife and weapon defense) because it a different reality. In fact, when he was a professional fighter he was only a blue belt, after he retired from the ring, he continued his training and got his black belt. His name is Jean-Yves Theriault, you may have heard of him.

 

[TKD_SBK]

How many of those thousands of rounds have been against someone with a knife?

Bro, should read more carefully to understand what I said. The context of my comment was that I've already been diligently and continually testing my striking skills, not only against pads and bags but against equally trained opponents who are also trying to KO me in thousands of rounds throughout the years. Therefore, my skills for punching someone in the face far exceeds my skills of grabbing some guy's hand that's wielding a knife....although my wristlocks and throws are decent as I have about 1 years worth of traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and I'm a blue belt in BJJ (with a bunch of silver medals when I competed)....not bragging, just to qualify myself as someone who can, mix it up when it comes to standup grabby-time.

And the same question can be asked of yourself. How many times have you successfully disarmed someone with a knife in your lifetime so far? I bet it's 0-2.

 

[frank raud]

Bro, should read more carefully to understand what I said. The context of my comment was that I've already been diligently and continually testing my striking skills, not only against pads and bags but against equally trained opponents who are also trying to KO me in thousands of rounds throughout the years. Therefore, my skills for punching someone in the face far exceeds my skills of grabbing some guy's hand that's wielding a knife....although my wristlocks and throws are decent as I have about 1 years worth of traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and I'm a blue belt in BJJ (with a bunch of silver medals when I competed)....not bragging, just to qualify myself as someone who can, mix it up when it comes to standup grabby-time.

And the same question can be asked of yourself. How many times have you successfully disarmed someone with a knife in your lifetime so far? I bet it's 0-2.[/QUOTE

No problems with my reading comprehension. You are apparently good to excellent at striking someone, including others who are trying to do the same. But the subtext is you havent the same level(or apparently any, as you avoid the question) of experience sparring against a knife, which somehow makes you an
authority on knife defensee . Please correct me if I'm not understanding what it is you are saying.

I have successfully disarmed someone of a knife once. It wasn't glamorous, it sure wasn't pretty and it largely involved dumping him into a pond.

 

[TKD_SBK]

So, part of your training is for ring fights, that's great, it takes a lot of guts to step into the ring. What's your knockout record? What's your knockout record before the other guy has landed a punch?

In the ring, I'm fighting against equally trained opponents with a ref to officially start the round. In the streets, it's usually going to be against some untrained bozo who can't fight nor know what to do. Obviously, his having a knife helps him significantly. I would probably back out, apologize, or w/e. I might even turn and run.

But if I'm cornered, in prison, too pissed off, or w/e.....then I'm gonna suckerpunch his *** as soon as I see him reaching for something or the actual knife. If I don't KO him, I'll at least stun him and follow up with more punches. Someone wobbling on queer street is not going to be doing much stabbing. Especially someone who's not a trained fighter.

Your screen name refers to TKD, but you reference using your hands a lot. Have you switched to another art, boxing perhaps?

It's a secret.

As I am an old, decripit guy with way more expereince in jiu jitsu and judo than boxing, would you be confident to step into a ring, bareknuckle, you with just your fists and me armed with pushdaggers? You obviously have way more experience than me in the ring arts. I would concede to not attempt headshots, only to the body. You will attempt to knock me out,I will attempt to gut you. Seem reasonable? Like your chances? Now imagine if you didn't know the other guy had a knife.

OK. Let's do this. Can you come to Northern Virginia, 22041?

A good friend of mine, with ring proven ability to knock people out with all 4 limbs(having done it 60 + times)over his professional career, does additional training for self defense (including knife and weapon defense) because it a different reality. In fact, when he was a professional fighter he was only a blue belt, after he retired from the ring, he continued his training and got his black belt. His name is Jean-Yves Theriault, you may have heard of him.

That's awesome, he's a Black guy right? Name sounds familiar. And maybe he's doing knife & weapon defense for more money/niche, w/e. Although, I'd probably not go to him for such because that's not even his specialty. Most so-called experts haven't even been in real hand vs. knife situations. If they have, I'd like to see their cut scars to prove it.

 

[TKD_SBK]

No problems with my reading comprehension. You are apparently good to excellent at striking someone, including others who are trying to do the same. But the subtext is you havent the same level(or apparently any, as you avoid the question) of experience sparring against a knife, which somehow makes you an
authority on knife defensee . Please correct me if I'm not understanding what it is you are saying.

I have successfully disarmed someone of a knife once. It wasn't glamorous, it sure wasn't pretty and it largely involved dumping him into a pond.

My bad, I thought I answered it. But my number is ZERO. I've never went up against anyone who pulled a knife on me. I always carry a gun wherever it's legal. I'm one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom b/c I don't want to get surprised while taking a dump. I answer the door with a gun. I water my garden with a gun. I just feel real naked w/o it. And my backup is a knife. It's sucks while jogging though, as it feels like a ton after 4 miles.

And I was pretty close at guessing your number being 0-2. But my point was, I have trained such knife defense and found it way too boring. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it's riskier FOR ME, PERSONALLy, than to just try to punch his lights out. I don't want to spend thousands of hours trying to grab at a rubber knife. I'd rather spend my time training to strike better, spar hard and compete more. Then if the time comes, where I'm up against a knife and I haven't shot the fcker yet....or if I couldn't have my gun in that location, I'll pull out my own legal, 3" folding knife and try to back out of the fight. If no gun, no knife and must fight...then punching the face would be my choice. Yes, it's a risk. But so is trying to Ninja grab his knife hand.

I'm up for some friendly sparring if you'd like. Me with a rubber knife smeared with red paint and you try to disarm me with your techniques while I try to stab and slash you. I bet my hand speed and footwork can make plenty of contact. What area are you in? Make a believer out of me.

 

[rickster]

From the comments of the (above) video.
Go ahead try it... and of course... be realistic. Personally, I'd rather use a red sharpie... the marks stay longer and can't be washed off easily... kinda like an actual knife wound... permanent.

Dang. We have use a red sharpie and old clothes for knife defense workouts over "eons" ago.

It started when one of my teachers saw I and a few students, before class, trying to mark each other with regular ball-point pens. He had noticed, we tried every evasive contorting body manner and blocking to avoid from getting "inked" (This was about 40+ years ago when i was 10-12 tears old). A childish game turned into a knife evading/parrying practice

I even thought of making a defense knife with a built in ink-pad acting as a blade to make the appearance more menacing than a pen

 

[K-man]

Perhaps another member here may give more of an "outsider's" point of view as to how we do things, as they attended a class of me teaching this subject (amongst one or two others) a few months ago, but I'll leave it to them if they wish.

Sorry Chris, I missed this thread when it first started and it had obviously submerged while I was away.

There is a big difference in the things that you can teach at a seminar and the things you can teach in a regular class. At Chris' seminar the emphasis was on 'get away', and obviously that is the primary advice we all should give. Because in a seminar we always try to give people something of value to 'take away', we tend to teach a specific defence against a specific attack. Of necessity, in a seminar situation the attacks are not normally realistic because we are trying to teach someone a technique they possibly haven't seen or tried before. So, in Chris' seminar we tried various defences that I honestly can't remember, but as practical self defence they were sound.

The reason I can't remember the moves Chris taught is that my teaching style is slightly different. I teach principle based self defence. Every attack will be slightly different so for me to teach a specific defence might not always be the right defence to use. There is likely to be slight confusion in a defender's mind if they need to, one, identify the attack and two, determine the most suitable defence. So I don't expect any of my guys to use the same defence twice because they have never learnt a specific combination. I teach a number of traps, locks, holds and disarms. I teach moving off the line of attack, protect the vital areas and I teach all the offensive moves like knees, elbows punches etc.

I don't teach any defense that catches the knife hand as number one objective. Sometimes the hand will be caught but that is a bonus. I teach deflection and never to stop the attack and I teach that, one way or the other, we must control the hand that has the knife. The deflections I like are based on reflex action that doesn't required fine skills.

So the attacker attacks, the student gets off the line and deflects the strike. Most times this ends up with the arm being restrained somehow. Then the student uses whatever strike to any available target to try to incapacitate. Then, and only then do they turn their attention back to the knife. They will use an appropriate lock or hold and remove the weapon. Because, through this process, relative body positions will change according to circumstance, the choice of technique will vary from one attack to the next.

Now, once again, I am trying to remember what Chris taught regarding getting the attacker to release he weapon. I have the feeling it may have been to hit the knife hand to get the release. I prefer to strip the knife and keep it. Two reasons for that. Firstly it gives me a weapon and secondly, my attacker or his mates are less likely to get the weapon back to use against me.

WRT the video of Emin Boztepe. I actually thought it was better than most I have watched. Sure it is greater distance than the real situation and it doesn't have the reality of multiple feints and stabs but if we accept it for what it is, then the principles aren't too bad. So the first 90 secs of that video is sound advice. A lot of what is commonly taught is covered in the first 60 seconds and dismissed. Around the 1.50 mark Emin is deflecting the arm to be able to get in and hit or kick. He is not focussing on the knife, he is trying to incapacitate the attacker. But what I really like is the bit with the stick. He shows that you can use a stick to nullify the knife, but he also demonstrates that you really need to know how to use the stick to avoid being killed. Unfortunately, a lot of people with a stick would think they can defend against a knife. Reality suggests otherwise. :asian:

 

[rickster]

In my limited experience once the person has started stabbing knife survival is composed of two parts.

Part one. Getting cut repeatedly while failing to grab and hold the knife hand.

Part two. Successfully grabbing and holding the knife hand and beating them with whatever you've got. (If the grip is lost then go back to part one).

You forgot;

Part Three.
The Intimidation, The Fear, The Pain, and The Shock of Blood/Blood Loss/Bleeding

Part Four: Nothing goes according to Part 1-3 or not goes "as planned"

 

[frank raud]

My bad, I thought I answered it. But my number is ZERO. I've never went up against anyone who pulled a knife on me. I always carry a gun wherever it's legal. I'm one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom b/c I don't want to get surprised while taking a dump. I answer the door with a gun. I water my garden with a gun. I just feel real naked w/o it. And my backup is a knife. It's sucks while jogging though, as it feels like a ton after 4 miles.

And I was pretty close at guessing your number being 0-2. But my point was, I have trained such knife defense and found it way too boring. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it's riskier FOR ME, PERSONALLy, than to just try to punch his lights out. I don't want to spend thousands of hours trying to grab at a rubber knife. I'd rather spend my time training to strike better, spar hard and compete more. Then if the time comes, where I'm up against a knife and I haven't shot the fcker yet....or if I couldn't have my gun in that location, I'll pull out my own legal, 3" folding knife and try to back out of the fight. If no gun, no knife and must fight...then punching the face would be my choice. Yes, it's a risk. But so is trying to Ninja grab his knife hand.

I'm up for some friendly sparring if you'd like. Me with a rubber knife smeared with red paint and you try to disarm me with your techniques while I try to stab and slash you. I bet my hand speed and footwork can make plenty of contact. What area are you in? Make a believer out of me.

So, in those thousands of rounds of sparring without an opponent with a knife, you have figured out the best knife defense for you? Awesome,very impressive. Without any actual practice or experience, you are capable of doing what multiple blade based arts cant do, successfully defend yourself(at least in theory) against a knife without making any attempt to control the knife. By the way, knife defense does not have to involve grabbing the hand. You are so confident in your abilities that rather than agree to my admittedly extreme scenario, you suggest that we spar with you having a knife, and me defending? Can you please explain how this will demonstrate the effectiveness of your advocated defense? Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm in Canada, come on up. Beer is cold, women hot and the exchange rate is pretty even these days.

 

[Josh Oakley]

In the ring, I'm fighting against equally trained opponents with a ref to officially start the round. In the streets, it's usually going to be against some untrained bozo who can't fight nor know what to do.

That's a dangerous assumption to make. Just because they don't have martial arts training doesn't mean they can't fight or know what to do.

A lot of kids these days that I have seen will fight each other out of boredom just waiting at the bus stop, and you would be surprised how well some of these kids can scrap. I always train under the assumption that the guy is stronger, faster, and at least as skilled as me. Because then it makes me a better fighter. It makes me think about the psychology of the fight. It makes me find weak spots that much quicker, because I HAVE to.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[rickster]

That's a dangerous assumption to make. Just because they don't have martial arts training doesn't mean they can't fight or know what to do.

A lot of kids these days that I have seen will fight each other out of boredom just waiting at the bus stop, and you would be surprised how well some of these kids can scrap. I always train under the assumption that the guy is stronger, faster, and at least as skilled as me. Because then it makes me a better fighter. It makes me think about the psychology of the fight. It makes me find weak spots that much quicker, because I HAVE to.

A teen with a knife is as dangerous like a baby rattlesnake, if not worse.

A baby rattlesnake is more deadly than its adults.....do you know why?

 

[szorn]

I realize that this is an old thread but thought I would add my thoughts...

First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault. Now, let me back track just a little...

The best technique for dealing with a weapon-wielding attacker is to simply run away. If escape is an option it should always be taken. If escape is not an option we should attempt to use environmental objects and improvised weapons to balance out the equation. Empty-hand skills should only be used as a last-ditch effort when no other options exist. Unlike what is ofetn taught in martial arts or seen in the movies, dealing with knife attacks is fast, brutal, and generally results in serious injury. It's not something that should be taken lightly.


Steve

 

[rickster]

I realize that this is an old thread but thought I would add my thoughts...

First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault. Now, let me back track just a little...

The best technique for dealing with a weapon-wielding attacker is to simply run away. If escape is an option it should always be taken. If escape is not an option we should attempt to use environmental objects and improvised weapons to balance out the equation. Empty-hand skills should only be used as a last-ditch effort when no other options exist. Unlike what is ofetn taught in martial arts or seen in the movies, dealing with knife attacks is fast, brutal, and generally results in serious injury. It's not something that should be taken lightly.


Steve

Go and reference Richard Prior's comedy skit "Macho Man". As funny as it sounds, it makes complete sense

 

[K-man]

First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault.

You are 100% right in saying that you must not fixate on the weapon, but you can't ignore it either. You must at least try to control the arm with the weapon while you are hitting. A lot of knife defence is taught at range where you can move out of the way but in reality, once the attacker commits to the attack you will be inside grappling range. In close it's knees and elbows, you won't get a clean strike. Sure it's going to be simple (gross motor), but it's not safe and it's not easy. If the knife arm is not controlled at that point you are in real trouble.

 

[DennisBreene]

As our Arnis class is moving into knife defence, I would like to beg everyones indulgence and try to reopen the dialog. I would like to hear about specific approaches in teaching this material that are "reality based", simple, and oriented towards maximizing one's survival. I also think it would be helpful to hear about real life situations and how they evolved. I'm hoping to find ways of increasing situational awareness as well as realistic defense techniques.