Understanding the knife encounter.

[BLACK LION]

All of those options come to fruition once you injure them. the control or "defanging the snake" or whatever terminology that could be used to describe the "de-tooling" or "disarming" process... sometimes striking is simultaneous with control or disarming like a knife to the throat... sometimes deflection and striking is simultaneous, like a knife to the back ... sometimes is just striking... but never should it just be about control or disarming the tool....

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ok, once back in my more foolish and drunken days before I started training martial arts (we won't go into the details ...), I had a HUGE bouncer (6 foot 3 inches or so, athletic build of about 260) do exactly what you are proposing.

He TRIED to kick me in the nuts. His foot stopped in its upward arc about an inch below my testicles. His eyes bugged out in complete surprise for the millisecond before I punched him square in his teeth.

I was later informed by law enforcment officers that that bouncer ended up in the hospital. What if I had been a knife wielder instead? That one stab to the face would have been the end for him.

You can't depend on a kick to the nuts. Ergo, trading nut kicks for stabs banking that you are going to end the fight with said kick is a BAD idea.

I've been struck in the testicles on several occasions.......yeah, it hurts.......but it's an interesting sort of pain that can be ignored until business is finished many times. Adrenaline is a funny thing.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ain't that the truth. So much modern knife defence is wishful thinking. You simply can't ignore the weapon. You'll get killed, plain and simple. In FMA, there's the admonition to "defang the snake". If you don't, you pay the price. The same techniques were used in medieval Europe. I'm sure you'll recognize them zDom. Take a look at these plates from Talhoffer's 1467 manual:

http://www.schielhau.org/taldagger.html

And his Ambraser Codex from 1459:

http://www.schielhau.org/talhoffer1459_ac_dagger.html

And Hundfeld: http://www.schielhau.org/hundfeld-dagger.html

Here's Fiore dei Liberi from 1410: http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/wildRose/section2.html

Note the principles involved: control the dagger at all costs to ensure safety and then kill the guy ASAP. Note the prevalence of joint locks. The difference between Talhoffer's techniques and those of some modern "experts" is that Talhoffer and his contemporaries are people who actually fought with knives, not modern armchair martial artists who've never been in a knife fight. I know people who've studied the medieval masters and who have used their techniques on the street in knife encounters and lived to tell the tale without a scratch (which is almost unheard of). The stuff works for real, it's been tested for real for centuries. Compared to those guys, we're a bunch of sewer snoids, and anything we think we know about knives (and fighting in general) doesn't amount to much in comparison.

Best regards,

-Mark

Exactly!

It's like training to fight a poisonous snake and being told to ignore the venomous fangs and attack the body.......it's all well and good until you get bit JUST ONCE!

I suspect that much of some 'theory' is being pushed by practitioners of non-weapon striking arts attempting to expand the applicability of their techniques to counter-weapon.......but a punch for a cut is NOT remotely a fair trade........boxers take punches to the head and body for 12 or 14 rounds........MMA practitioners take that kind of damage for 3 or 5 rounds..........throw a knife or two in the mix and the fight would be over in SECONDS!

The weapon changes everything!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Exactly!

It's like training for fight a poisonous snake and being told to ignore the venomous fangs and attack the body.......it's all well and good until you get bit JUST ONCE!

I suspect that much of some 'theory' is being pushed by practitioners of non-weapon striking arts attempting to expand the applicability of their techniques to counter-weapon.......but a punch for a cut is NOT remotely a fair trade........boxers take punches to the head and body for 12 or 14 rounds........MMA practitioners take that kind of damage for 3 or 5 rounds..........throw a knife or two in the mix and the fight would be over in SECONDS!

The weapon changes everything!

Very well put sgtmac_46.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Now I will say that working the streets i've seen real world examples where unarmed subjects fought off knife wielding subjects.......by punching and kicking the guy with the knife. In several cases aggressive actions forced the knife attacker to retreat and disengage the attack.......but in EVERY case I can remember, the unarmed guy ended up in the hospital, in several cases needing surgery, and the knifer was relatively unscathed.

Now, that suggests that fighting the knifing attacker off is superior to doing nothing.......but I do not see trading knife for blow as remotely optimal, not when there are better options.......the best bet being to avoid the situation and/or have a weapon of your own to counter with.

 

[MJS]

Now I will say that working the streets i've seen real world examples where unarmed subjects fought off knife wielding subjects.......by punching and kicking the guy with the knife. In several cases aggressive actions forced the knife attacker to retreat and disengage the attack.......but in EVERY case I can remember, the unarmed guy ended up in the hospital, in several cases needing surgery, and the knifer was relatively unscathed.

Good point, and I believe it was the gun thread in which you said that you'd be willing to take a punch, as long as the other person was willing to trade that for a shot from the gun. So, in a sense, that applies to what you just said...while the knifer may have a few bumps and bruises, it was the other guy who ended up with the short end of the stick.

Now, that suggests that fighting the knifing attacker off is superior to doing nothing.......but I do not see trading knife for blow as remotely optimal, not when there are better options.......the best bet being to avoid the situation and/or have a weapon of your own to counter with.

Agreed, and that would be my first choice as well. I'd rather avoid the situation, but if not possible, find something to use as a weapon. If all else fails, empty hand defense is all thats left.