Understanding the knife encounter.

[MJS]

YOur absolutely correct. The bottom line is that it is whatever works. In reality if you grab the knife hand, and take the guy down or break his arm, or go for injuries and break the guys arm, I guess in the final analysis if it gets the job done, and you get to go home safe, it's the best in the world. At least for you, cause you got to go home, and the other guy got to go for a ride.

****Note: The following Clip has strong language****

I came across this clip. Personally, I like the way Rich closes the gap, gains control of the weapon, and is still in a good position to punish the other guy with strikes.

Now, just so I'm following your point of view here, you're basically saying that you would rather not work so much for control, but overwhelm the guy with strikes, so as to take him mind off of using the blade, and now putting him on the defensive due to your strikes?

As we said, whatever works so that we get home safe.

 

[dnovice]

Rarely does a knifer step to toe toe with the blade if full view

I disagree. From reading your post I deduce one source of your information: prison tapes or tales. Not sure of other sources.

Yes. If someone is intent on killing you, and is planning ways to do so way ahead of time. sure. He'll ambush stab you. However, if the knife attack is a result of a robbery, or instantaneous passionate reaction then the weilder pulls out the knife in plain view.

On the street here... If someone wants to stab you they pull out the knife and let you see. They aren't necessarily trained in using knives. Maybe your neighbourhood has a navy seal like assasins.

Once again... understanding that there will be blood and cuts is paramount... but killers dont quit and neither should you.

This i agree with. A lot of people think they won't get injured in a knife or empty hand encounter. This is just not realistic. If you don't get hit count it as a blessing not the norm. lol.

 

[kaizasosei]

There was just a knifefight a short while ago here at a subway station. I read about it in the news and saw the knives used, both guys pulled a knife and started going at it. Apparently, both of them got stabbed and cut up pretty bad. one knife was this long thin stilleto, the other was a badass foldout cutter with some jagged saw teeth at the bottom.


j

 

[GBlues]

****Note: The following Clip has strong language****

I came across this clip. Personally, I like the way Rich closes the gap, gains control of the weapon, and is still in a good position to punish the other guy with strikes.

Now, just so I'm following your point of view here, you're basically saying that you would rather not work so much for control, but overwhelm the guy with strikes, so as to take him mind off of using the blade, and now putting him on the defensive due to your strikes?

As we said, whatever works so that we get home safe.

Good vid man. That is basically what I'm saying, but it's not just about overwhelming him with strikes, but targeted strikes. Where it hurts and you get a reaction that normal people are going to give you. You can hit a guy all you want, but if it doesn't cause damage, it does no good. Getting the injuries will help alot. Also when somebody attacks you with a knife, they don't expect you to move in on them and just attack them. They assume you will do what everybody else does, and either move back, like the guy in the video was demonstrating, or try to get the knife away. They don't expect, ( at least I don't think), you to charge them. It's not a normal reaction to a guy brandishing a knife. I think that anytime that we do something out of the norm, it's gonna give us that extra "oh ****" factor. It's going to take there brain time to process what's going on, and if were smart we'll capatilize on it, and put injuries on this dude, so that he can't collect himself. Till he's unconscious or non-functional, you don't stop. But yeah basically what you said.

LOL!

 

[BLACK LION]

I disagree. From reading your post I deduce one source of your information: prison tapes or tales. Not sure of other sources. I have been stabbed in the back before. Your deduction is incorrect. My source of information comes from actuality, not from some george foreman cook book. If you also notice the term KNIFER...meaning skilled-experienced-tactical end user... not some piss pant meth head wanting money for a tall can.

Yes. If someone is intent on killing you, and is planning ways to do so way ahead of time. sure. He'll ambush stab you. However, if the knife attack is a result of a robbery, or instantaneous passionate reaction then the weilder pulls out the knife in plain view. Not always. And to bank on this would be catastrophic. I would pray that someone intent on stabbing me would brandish his tool in hopes I will copitulate... this is the scenario we dream of... a far cry from an ambush and assassination attempt with an object you cannot see...

On the street here... If someone wants to stab you they pull out the knife and let you see. They aren't necessarily trained in using knives. Maybe your neighbourhood has a navy seal like assasins. I live in a place where people actually use thier knives to kill people... not some punk whos never seen the inside or never put the metal to flesh... A real knifer is going to assassinate you... there are times when a knifer may brandish to get you to copitulate so you let your gaurd down only to assassinate you... they may ask for a wallet or money but dont really want it, they just want you to reach for it so they can stab you.


This i agree with. A lot of people think they won't get injured in a knife or empty hand encounter. This is just not realistic. If you don't get hit count it as a blessing not the norm. lol.

I agree...one can essentially mitigate the damage. I would rather get a cut on my neck than a blade though my carotid artery. I would rather get shot in the shoulder than the head etc.

 

[Langenschwert]

Knife encounters are perilous, make no mistake. W.E. Fairbairn said that "an unarmed man has no sure defence against it."

People often underestimate what weapons actually do. Controlling the weapon arm/hand is of vital importance, usually combined with a joint lock, break or throw if possible. Most authorities advocate this approach, and have for centuries (see Fiore, Meyer, and other medieval manuscrpits). Sometimes all you can do is bat it out of the way. That's all well and good, but it's not the end of the story. The simple fact of the matter is that even the best knife defences easily countered by a canny knife fighter. One of the simplest things is to transfer the knife to the other hand and continue the attack. Many modern defences assume the knifer won't be smart enough to figure that out. The reason for the uncertainty of knife defence is that the defence against a knife almost always has to be a "double time' defence... a cover followed by a counter. That gives the BG time to recover. Good defences attempt to be as close to a "single time" counter as possible so that the cover flows into the counter seamlessly. Easier said than done, of course. Knife defences must be drilled CONSTANTLY to become effective, but even then, there is no guarrantee.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[BLACK LION]

I am an advocate of utilizing a check hand which is kept close to the torso and blocking the vitals from immediate impact. That check hand is there regardless of wether I am unarmed or firing a pistol. The only time it is not there is when utilizing a rifle or long gun. I dont seek to defend gainst it rather than deflecting the "killing arc" if getting out of the way is impossible. I have found that its simultaneous in its execution which is paramount.... any type of checking or deflection should be coupled with a strike...never should one just try to check or defelct without striking simultaneously.... I dont consider blocking becuase a skilled end user can easily drag the blade down the blocking medium and open it up. checking or deflecting is more viable in that the killing arc is being rerouted away from the original point of impact and if you are rotating to the outside while deflecting then you find yourself at a vantage point.

this is why I say... if they reach drop em... if they flash, drop em... if danger is imminent shut them down asap but keep the tool in check... you will get cut ot poked but they are goona die....

 

[lklawson]

I often see references of knife encounters as some sort of deul in which two opposing forces face off in some sort of sanctioned death match...

It happens still sometimes. Yes. However, there's an old saying, "Show-ers don't cut and Cutters don't show." So, yes, attack from ambush is a long standing, well known, highly effective technique. But it's not 100% of the time. Claiming otherwise is ALSO a modern myth. It DOES happen that sometimes (yes, only sometimes) you know that he's got a knife and can enter on an equal (or superior) footing. It's happened to friends of mine.

This is far from actuality and possibly stems from unharnessed fear or misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of a knife attack itself and how a person that wishes to utilize a knife must act in order to be successful....

Nope. It does still happen that way from time to time. But if your point is that failing to accept and train for the possibility of attack from ambush is stupid and a huge gap in your training, then sure, I agree 100%.

I belive it also stems from various media and mediums that have subliminally domesticated violence in its entirety to where we actually behave like we see in the movies or video or what have you... It seems many have been inadvertently trained to accept a knife attack exactly how it does NOT happen....

Basing your martial training around what you see in the movies or on TV is foolish. TV is entertainment not reality, duh. If I wanted reality, I'd turn on the evening news. When I want to have a hero and watch him win, I go to a movie. Good guys dying in ambush is reality and I can read that in the paper. But it makes SUCKY movies. Once we all understand that Billy Jack was nothing more than an entertaining story we can all move on past this self-evident point.

I also see references of knife attacks in which the would be victim attempts to adorn themselves with some sort of deterrent like a briefcase or a jacket or belt etc. in an attempt to prolong the innevitable or somehow prevent it...

I very much disagree. Puncture and slash resistant vests and clothing are par for the course for correctional officers and historically knife fighters used these measures all the dang time. Navaja fighters in Spain would wrap their lead arms with cloth as would some rapier fighters. A very old prison technique was to stuff magazines or periodicals into the waistband. Shields, both light and heavy are the norm for riot police and improvised shields, even as small as those such as books, have proven effective. Recently here in Ohio a Minister was shot to death. He deflected the first of the bullets with his Bible.

Another major reference I have come across is "disarming techniques" in which the would be victim attempts to perform specified techniques in order to strip away the blade and or avoid being stabbed or cut by utilizing various techniques...including but not limited to all out grappling matches with the tool or device...

Well, gee willikers friend. Of COURSE disarming techiques are dangerous and comparatively "low percentage." But for crying out loud, it's better than crying like a little girl and crapping in your panties!

A knife for example is most often employed or deployed as a menas of assassination by ambush...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I wonder if you have any statistics on this. FBI report or the like? The reports I've seem generally indicate that most of the time a knife attack is with a kitchen knife, from the front, against an unarmed victim (frequently a spouse or S.O.). I'm truly interested in your source.

hence the term "felt not seen"... rarely if ever will an end user brandish the blade and wave it around like some trinket in some hypnotic ritualistic fashion... they will pull and crash into you wile stabbing perfusely in any spot they can get it into...

Sure. Show-ers don't cut and Cutters don't show. Brandishing the blade is silly. It has a lot of intimidation factor, no doubt, but as a general rule of S.D., if you're gonna pull it, then get to work because you can't count on the other person trying to "merely intimidate" you.

The surprise is overwhelming...even in prison footage this fact remains the same...

That's the POINT of an ambush. And it hardly applies exclusively to the knife. People who are "sucker punched" are always surprised. People who are tackled from out of the blue are always surprised. Ambush with a weapon is no different in this regard. The weapon simply makes the ambush more deadly.

Rarely does a knifer step to toe toe with the blade if full view in order to secure thier needs... they will exploit ever opportunity of surprise to their advantage.... they also understand the fear associated with being stabbed and use that as a tool to further thier agenda...

Well, that kinda depends on the nature of the attack. If they're just out to assassinate you then you'll "see" (hahaha) some sort of modified Folsom "hidden knife" type technique. If it's a "Crime of Passion" (as many are) a raging lunatic will frequently be beating the piss out of the victim or yelling and gesticulating wildly and then just grab the handy butcher knife from the knife block on the kitchen counter. It's still surprising but it ain't exactly an assassination from icepick grip stab to the kidneys as you're waking by a random stranger.

This sort of behavior is also typified by attacks with "knife-like objects" held in reverse grip as well. I was reading a few months back about a Perp who attacked his own lawyer in court with a sharpened pencil he grabbed from the table. He held in in reverse grip, capping the eraser, and making a single direct-line stab to the chest.

Its important to understand that there are only 2 "safe" places when faced with the blade... 1.far far away from it 2.the attacker rendered nonfunctional.... option one may or may not involve being cut or stabbed while option 2 will involve being cut or stabbed... you may not have to sacrifice any blood or tissue to escape but you will if you agress to protect yourself or others.... there will be blood... regardless

Maybe yes, maybe no. There are times when the defender simply will not get cut, through either good luck or skill. However, from a psychological perspective, it is very important for the defender to accept that "he will get cut." That way if it does happen he won't be paralyzed by the psychological impact of the injury. If it doesn't happen, well, then it just doesn't happen. Good for him.

Once again... understanding that there will be blood and cuts is paramount... but killers dont quit and neither should you.

Sure they do. You just can't count on it that's all. Some do, some don't and you can't guess which will and which will not. Guessing wrong will be much more likely to get you dead. Further, from both a moral and legal perspective, if you use Deadly Force in Self Defense, and make no mistakes, deploying a knife IS Deadly Force, then you'd better be darn well justified in using Deadly Force. In such a circumstance, there is no reason to hold back until the attack on you is stopped. You simply cannot cut once and admire your handiwork. Keep cutting and stabbing until the attack on you stops. When it stops it will be because either the attacker has quit or he is no longer physically able to continue the attack.

Understanding the use of the knife tool and how to access targets and vitals with it is also paramount... if you become the end user you want to ensure success and it needs to be immediate... understanding what eefects slashes get as opposed to thrusting the blade into a vital... what makes more blood...what makes less... and so on...

I've been told there is a great book out now. Something like "Human Anatomy for the Martial Artist" or the like.

Most often people in training do not realize that if you attack correctly by utilizing the proper principles the knife itself becomes inert... most "disarms" come not by technique but after injuries are affectuated and the knife is dislodged from impact or trauma or inability to use it from nonfunctioning parts....

They don't? I find that amazing considering that attacking the weapon bearing limb is one of the primary targets for pretty much every melee weapon system I've ever seen.

Most often people in trainin do not realize that attacking the tool itself wont stop the job from getting done...

I really can't agree. I've never seen a S.D. technique shown against a knife attack, even really, really, REALLY bad ones that do not in some way include a follow up attack to the attacker or an immobilization or incapacitation of the weapon-bearing limb or the attacker as a whole. People may be dumb but, as a general rule, they ain't THAT dumb.

stop the living breathing thinking being behind the device and the threat ceases to exist... there is no deuling or fancy techniques that get this done... just sheer agressive or egressive precision and decisive execution on the real targets and thats the operationg system of the machine(s) you are up against...not thier extensions

Again, I must disagree, at least in part. Aggressive and decisive action are a must, I completely agree. However, simply going "Cave Man" won't necessarily get the job done. And you absolutely MUST deal with the weapon in order to deal with the weapon's operator. In historic fencing, this is (sometimes) called "Passing the Point." You must somehow render the weapon ineffective against you before you can render its operator hors de combat. Perhaps that means getting off line of the weapon and then attacking the operator. Perhaps that means preemptively attacking the attacker before the weapon can be brought into effective play. Perhaps it means "defanging the snake" to take the weapon out of action. Perhaps it means entering in closer than the effective range of the weapon and grappling the weapon limb to render the weapon inoperable against you. Heck, perhaps it means having a gosh darn longer range weapon. But in any and every case YOU MUST DEAL WITH THE WEAPON IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE ATTACKER. Ignoring the weapon in order to attack the "operating system of the machine" is a sure recipe for catastrophe.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Carol]

That's the POINT of an ambush. And it hardly applies exclusively to the knife. People who are "sucker punched" are always surprised. People who are tackled from out of the blue are always surprised. Ambush with a weapon is no different in this regard. The weapon simply makes the ambush more deadly.

Well said.

"The punch that knocks you out is the punch you don't see."

 

[MJS]

What a great post from lklawson!! 2 thumbs up!! Its always nice to see another point of view, because after I read your post, things that I missed in the post you quoted, came to light more.

To summarize the post....

I agree, depending on the situation, that will determine how the knife is presented. A prison attack will most likely be the case where the other guy doesnt see it until its too late. Standing at the ATM will most likely result in the blade being shown for intimidation or pressed up against us.

As far as using a tool to aid in your defense...damn right I'm going to use something, and if someone thinks thats foolish, oh well. First thing, you should try to get the hell out of the area, but if running/escape isn't an option, yes, I'm going to pick something up and use it. A chair, something I can throw at the person to momentarily distract them, something that I can hit them with, whatever it takes. All else fails, then I would engage empty handed. Standing at the ATM, well, probably isn't going to be a chair nearby, but in a bar, damn right I'd pick up a beer bottle, chair or ashtray.

Disarming techniques...yes, there are many that I've seen...some of which would probably get you killed, and others that stand a pretty good chance of working. However, just like our empty hand vs. empty hand techs. they are designed to teach you principles and ideas. Will I pull off that textbook move? Probably not, but thats not my goal. Control, counterstrike.

We're probably going to get cut, but for myself, I would like to minimize that as much as possible, therefore, even if I'm hitting good targets, to cause pain, ie: groin, eyes, etc., I do not want to rely on those and assume that by hitting those shots, that alone will work. I want to gain control of that weapon, and at the same time, punish the person. Its not a difficult concept to grasp, although I think some here may have a hard time seeing this. Its all what and how you train.

 

[lklawson]

I would disagree with you on your number 1. I don't think it's important to grab the knife hand. Most people can't and won't grab the knife hand. I think your main focus should be to turn the brain off. If you turn his brain off you accomplish all of your objectives and do so at once. 1) he is no longer a knife wielding attacker. and 2) he is no longer a threat.

No. You must "Deal with the Steel" in some way or another. That doesn't always mean grabbing the weapon bearing limb but that is certainly one way to do so. You simply can NOT ignore the weapon. There is only one way in which to instantly "turn the brain off" in the attacker and that is a CNS hit. The problem is that the CNS is comparatively small and is very well protected by dense bone. One-punch K.O.'s, though nice, are rare, even by people who are known to have great skill and capacity in that regard.

Nope. Gotta find some way to deal with the weapon, even if it just means being able to counter-attack at a range greater than the effective range of the attacker's weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And I disagree with you. There is no magic switch you can just reach out, push and "turn the brain off."

Sure there is. All you have to do is sever the spinal cord above the arms.

I'll get back with you when I find a safe, quick, and efficient method of doing that which doesn't involve a sniper or a guillotine.

Seriously, a CNS hit can achieve the desired result. The problem is that getting a CNS hit is kinda like winning the Lottery and a one-punch K.O. is kinda like winning the local Boy Scouts raffle. When all it costs me is $1, sure I might play. When it could cost me my life, I think I'll look for better odds.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I had a very long response to your post and I've just decided to answer it this way. Your very luck you've never been knocked out. You obviously haven't met the man that could do it yet. I applaud you for superior toughness and resilience. While you must protect yourself however you feel is appropriate. I personally feel that the safest way to end the threat of the knife, is to end the real threat which is the person weilding the knife. That being said, I feel that it absolutely will work if and when I ever need it too.

The number of times I've seen someone knock out another fella without that other fella getting in a few licks can be counted on one hand. The number of times that has happened when the other fella is the initiating the attack... none at all.

Knock outs are NOT a magic wand against an attacker with a weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[BLACK LION]

The CNS is the brain and spinal cord and there is no magic to causing trauma to it.... CNS injury is either a brain or spinal injury. They are quite common...a lil' too common.

 

[lklawson]

The CNS is the brain and spinal cord and there is no magic to causing trauma to it....

Yes, I know. That's why I said what I did about it.

CNS injury is either a brain or spinal injury. They are quite common...a lil' too common.

Severe trauma is necessary. One common method is trauma to the back of the head or top of the spine due to falling such as after a judo/aikido style throw or being knocked off the feet and hitting the back of the head on concrete. Again, this necessitates putting yourself in range of the weapon, thus in danger, by closing the gap with the attacker. Unless you're planning in him slipping on a bannana peel that is. There is no magic off switch that can be flipped safely without the use of distance weapons or prior restraint.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[BLACK LION]

No matter how one wishes to "deal with the steel"... One better be causing injuries and denying that piece of meat its function...

I train to shift the POI by rotating outside the LOF or killing arc... the safest place against a blade is outside its range wether its straight or circular. Getting inside to control or combat the tool leaves the solution to the equation up to whos the stronger hungrier killer rather than whos more tactical and assertive... You get inside to shut em off not to combat the tool.
If its extreme close quarters or imminent contact then that check hand should be ingrained along with a simultaneous strike,rotation and follow through...continuing the chain of trauma in this fashion till there is no threat.

I like to do actuality drills in which I attempt to assassinate co workers out of the blue with a rubber blade and they do the same. The elevator has became the proving ground one day. Even though I had placed myself in a good position ini the corner, a much shorter co-worker was in front of me and he turned and tried to get me center mass and that check hand came to the rescue while striking his neck...it deflected to the side and grazed my ribcage... he would have been out and I would have been cut.... but alive... my focus was not on the blade but at the same time I wont deny its there... thats why I train the check hand to deal with the inside while I cover the outside...

 

[BLACK LION]

Yes, I know. That's why I said what I did about it.

Sever trauma is necessary. One common method is trauma to the back of the head or top of the spine due to falling such as after a judo/aikido style throw or being knocked off the feet and hitting the back of the head on concrete. Again, this necessitates putting yourself in range of the weapon, thus in danger, by closing the gap with the attacker. Unless you're planning in him slipping on a bannana peel that is. There is no magic off switch that can be flipped safely without the use of distance weapons or prior restraint.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The CNS response was to the part where it was referred to as a small area and that attacking it successfully was akin to winning the lottery.

evasion and escape would be much easier than agressing the threat...

One can evade and/or escape and remain completely outside its "range" or one can agress and yet still remain outside its "range" if you shift or rotate outside the line of fire or killing arc... its not a gun... it must be swung,thrusted or thrown and there are only so many physiological variances in how this is done... by understanding this one can train to shift the point of impact by rotating ... once the blade is out there it must complete its cycle before its retracted...

wether you agress or egress you are taking a chance but thats what you train for....

 

[zDom]

Severe trauma is necessary. One common method is trauma to the back of the head or top of the spine due to falling such as after a judo/aikido style throw or being knocked off the feet and hitting the back of the head on concrete.

Most of our Bang Chang Kum (defense against knife) set of techniques in Moo Sul Kwan hapkido involve exactly the components described above:

a "check hand" type block with an immediate/near simulataneous "judo type" throw;

a couple move outside the arc, then enter and destroy attacking arm.

 

[GBlues]

No. You must "Deal with the Steel" in some way or another. That doesn't always mean grabbing the weapon bearing limb but that is certainly one way to do so. You simply can NOT ignore the weapon. There is only one way in which to instantly "turn the brain off" in the attacker and that is a CNS hit. The problem is that the CNS is comparatively small and is very well protected by dense bone. One-punch K.O.'s, though nice, are rare, even by people who are known to have great skill and capacity in that regard.

Nope. Gotta find some way to deal with the weapon, even if it just means being able to counter-attack at a range greater than the effective range of the attacker's weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't believe I ever said that I was or believed that I could get a one hit knockout. Nope I didn't. As far as dealing with the steel. The bottom line is if your in a knife vs no-knife situation, your going to get cut or stabbed. YOu just have to figure that your going to, because the odds are greatly in favor of it. That being said, if you know your going to get cut or stabbed what does it matter if he gets one or two on you, if you rupture his testicles, break both clavicles, snap his ankle, and crush his windpipe? Not much. I guarantee if I landed all of those attacks and got all of those results my odds of surviving that encounter are now a lot better than his, and guess what, I shut his brain off. He's now non-functional. I'm going to get a trip to the hospital to get sown up, he's probably going to the morgue. See the difference? It's not about grabbing the knife, if you feel comfortable with that, do it, it's about ending the attack so he can't continue to stab and slash and cut you. He who gets the first injury wins my friend, and dinking around getting cut up ain't getting it done. It's just getting you cut up. You have to remember when a man pulls a knife on you, he has one goal, and that is to end your life. Dancing around outside of knife range is prolonging the inevitable fact that you are going to have to get inside, and get injuries, the longer you wait the more time you spend trying to control the steel, the longer he gets to practice till he finally puts an injury on you, and then your all his. Be the one to get the injury first. Just hit the guy, but break something when you do.

 

[lklawson]

if you rupture his testicles, break both clavicles, snap his ankle, and crush his windpipe? Not much. I guarantee if I landed all of those attacks and got all of those results my odds of surviving that encounter are now a lot better than his, and guess what, I shut his brain off.

Perhaps a different terminology would be in order. "Shut the brain off" doesn't generally mean "I broke his ankle" to most folks. Maybe something along the lines of "Get him thinking about something other than stabbing you" would be more appropriate and help prevent future misunderstandings?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk