Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Brian R. VanCise]

Si-Je really the vast majority of people who practice BJJ are not arrogant anymore so than in any other system.

SteveBJJ is making some rather good points as no one can doubt that the UFC and BJJ have changed how practitioners of martial systems are studying.

 

[Si-Je]

Sigh. Okay. I specifically said "and other styles of grappling.". I take nothing away from judo, catch wrestling, sambo or any other grappling art.

In the first few sentences, I'm specifically addressing the place grappling had in the consciousness if MA practitioners before and after UFC 1. There is also the very real and undeniable impact BJJ has had on the popularity of MA in general and grappling specifically. That's not arrogance. In fact I take no personal credit or pride for any of it. It's not my art, simply the one in which I train.

If you choose to ignore the impact BJJ has had in recent history, since '93 in the world then it's you who isn't seeing things with an open eye.

That's fine do what you want. So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ? Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?

 

[The Last Legionary]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:

 

[Si-Je]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:

All I wanted was to hear a female point of view, not discuss whether a video was real or not or have the thread totally derailed arguing over who can post, that was not my intention. I never said men weren't "allowed" in, I simply asked for women to tell me what they thought.
But, whatever, the thread was hijacked, it's done. Take it off. I don't care what the ladies think about self-defense anymore, I'm totally discouraged from ever trying to bring it up again. From what I've read so far it's not really very impressive. Get over it, it's over. You won't hear anything about self defense from me again. Ya'll train what you want.

As for you, I have no interest in your statements or your cocky, rude attitude, and find your post akin to watching paint dry. lol!
You think I'm an *** hole, fine, that's your right to your own opinion. I'll keep the right to have my opinion too, and that stands on this topic several times throughout this board.
Teachers want to supplement WC with BJJ they don't need to be teaching WC, or anyother art for that matter. If you don't believe in the art your teaching, I don't see the point in teaching it other than to make a buck.
If you want to teach multiple arts, then teach MMA and stop calling it WC. Simple as that. That's how I feel about it, that's what I think about it, that's my opinion about it.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Ow. I pissed off the FemaNazi. Oooh. I'm a baad boy!
:bangahead:

Honestly chickiedee, your attitude in your postings is pretty "cult fanatic", and it's quite obvious what flavor your Kool Aid is.

:drink2tha

Here's some friendly advice.

1. If you want friendly replies, make friendly posts.
2. Use the IGNORE Feature to weed out those who give you a case of the vapors. You know, like me.
3. If you want a woman's perspective, there's a woman-only area. Post elsewhere, you'll get Male Polution. Like now.

For the record, I don't cuddle and I don't wax on or wax off. I shoot things from long range:snipe: Chi Sao and SLT give me gas. I think my Chi is bad. I blame Kim. :lfao:

But rather than butting heads like you are, maybe you want to report things to this sites staff. See, it's their job to keep things on track and keep things from going :flame:


As to the rest well, :sadsong:

 

[Mystic Wolf]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through. As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts. And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied. But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.

We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.

To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.

WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.

 

[Steve]

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynAfOSiqmg

I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy. I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard. I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions.

The first part of that video was essentially open guard. Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs. Open guard is simply a label for the position. Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent. A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees. Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.

Here's one version of an open guard pass. JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion. He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass.

The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant. If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them. What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs. Slapping his foot doesn't count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related

The above video demonstrates control of the knees. Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.

I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ. I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.

What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him. He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance. Position before submission. The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.

As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work. What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.

 

[Steve]

That's fine do what you want. So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ? Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?

LOL. I don't train WC. I was interested in reading from others how, or even whether or not, they would mesh. I don't see why they wouldn't, though. I mentioned in my last post how it seemed that Emin's demonstration exhibited more solid BJJ fundamentals than his "grappler" uke.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy. I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard. I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions.

The first part of that video was essentially open guard. Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs. Open guard is simply a label for the position. Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent. A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees. Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.

Here's one version of an open guard pass. JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion. He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass.

The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant. If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them. What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs. Slapping his foot doesn't count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related

The above video demonstrates control of the knees. Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.

I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ. I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.

What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him. He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance. Position before submission. The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.

As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work. What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.

To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.

 

[Steve]

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through. As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts. And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied. But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.

We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.

To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.

WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.

Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie! The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn. Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult. If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.

 

[Steve]

To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.

That may very well be true. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Right?

But it sure looks like basic open guard technique and fundamental positional control. I frequently work a guard much like that, although I would try if possible to control my opponent's arms and avoid staying so flat.

Edit: Just wanted to add, the post of mine that you responded to was less about Emin's technique than about his uke. To understand how his techniques might work, I would like to see them demonstrated counter fundamentally sound grappling technique, such as I provided examples of in my post.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie! The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn. Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult. If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.

Definitely in agreement here stevebjj.

BJJ is very difficult as is any really effective grappling system. To many little details are missed by not paying attention to the very fine points. That is what makes one grappling practitioner good and someone else just average at best. Unfortunately people are rushing in and missing a lot of those details,

 

[theletch1]

Attention all users!!!
This is the second warning in this thread to keep the conversation polite and respectful. This is the last warning which will be placed in this thread before it gets locked. I suggest that each and every person posting to this thread re-acquaint themselves with the general posting rules for the forum. If you are encountering problems with the posts of another member use the report to moderator function... do not reply to them in thread.
Attention all users!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mystic Wolf we are of course glad to have you here at MartialTalk!

 

[Mystic Wolf]

All I am saying, study the art you are in, disect each movement and work with the flowing of the movement. Do not stay to focused on one technique, flow on to the next.

What a lot of Martial Artist do is take a little of this and a little of that and do not take the time to learn the whole art and miss the big picture. Atleast stay with it till you make black belt before moving on to the next art, this will make you more knowledgable in Martial Arts.

 

[arnisador]

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through.

Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.

I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.

Thanks for posting!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I read your statement...you just validated what I said...You said you never say you kicked the **** of everyone you sparred. Thats something others say....

Well she is not saying she never been taking down or beat everyone she sparred...She is saying that her husband is the greatest...She falls under the other say those things not me...Her Husband never came on her bragging how he defeat all of us on here...

She thinks the greatest about her husband...She should...As should your wives...But to tell her not to think highly of her husband is just absord...Thats her man...


Of course she thinks there no one better its her husband...Give her a break in that respect.

LOL, dude are you serious here?? See, the difference is, I don't walk around thinking I'm a badass. I understand that I have weak areas, I understand that every art has a weak spot, I understand that theres always someone bigger and better. I strive to improve those areas.

But, you will not hear me say that I will never be taken down, that I've kicked the *** of everyone I've sparred with. Those are things that others say, not me.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?

Biased?? Thats an understatement! LOL! LOL! See, all I'm simply trying to do is get you to see what else is out there. Its clear that you dont want to, but like I said, its not good to be so blinded. Open your eyes for a moment, and look at how other arts deal with things. Like I said, NO art has all the answers. Not TKD, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and not WC.

 

[Si-Je]

She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?

Thank you Yoshi!
The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Wing Chun is an art that is always evolving, but it always stays within the 5 basic principles of Wing Chun. Utilizing sensitivity, spring energy, and rooting. I discect each movement of the forms of Wing Chun and apply them under different scenarios to see what flows best from one motion to the next. I do this while I'm standing, sitting, and on the ground. Utilizing all parts of my body.
By doing so, helps me obtain a better understanding of Wing Chun and how to utilize the techniques.
The goal I teach the students is they have 5 seconds to get off the ground once they're put there. This is our primary focus to get off the ground quickly.
Being on the ground is a dangerous place, especially if your fighting multiple attackers. And most confrontations I have been in there has always been two or more attackers.