-What gives you that idea? Certainly Judo, Sumo, Boxing, and Wrestling look the same in training as they do in sparring/fighting! Does the Judo guy change the mechanics of his throws he practices in randori just because he is in a competition? Does the wrestler change the mechanics of his double leg takedown he has been practicing in training with his partner just because he is in a competition? Does the boxer change the mechanics of his punching developed from working on the focus mitts with his coach when he gets in the ring with an opponent? Geez! Use a little common sense here!
This is not what was said, I said the drill and the way it looks during drill is not how it looks during sparring or fighting. Drills are targetting specific areas to train, some may resemble sparring and others dont. For boxing a lot of it is maintained same behavior as fighting. Well at least for good schools, just punching bag workouts seem to done in a crappy non-realistic way for some schools but assuming a good class of course.
-Ok. So a boxer doing the speed bag does change his punching mechanics just for sake of working the speed bag. A boxer training cardio isn't going to use the same footwork with the jump rope that he will use in the ring. But those are small relatively insignificant drills compared to the entirety of a boxer's training. If the boxer loses his form in the ring that his coach has been working on in training you can bet he is going to hear about it after the fight!
We are not saying it is ok to lose form. I am saying it is not clear a form is lost just because you think it looks like kickboxing. The difference in that statement should be very clear to you.
A boxer has drills that are not using any techniques as they would be used in sparring or fighting, but boxing is an art that is in its core intended to be that you train exactly the way you fight. Very efficient. This is my belief that when it comes to punching itself a boxer will always become better at that part than any other art given the time investment and natural ability is somewhat identical.
-Again, it depends on who we are talking about. And, again....I never said I would expect Wing Chun in sparring to be "picture perfect" and look exactly like the forms and drills. I have simply been saying that some abandon the basic structure and mechanics of Wing Chun when sparring. And I wondered why that was, and why so many find that to be acceptable. Why do you find it acceptable? Do you agree with "Nobody Important" that Wing Chun structure and mechanics doesn't really work in fighting?
I am disagreeing that WC should look like forms or drills, because most forms or drills people refer to are those on YouTube that lack offensive intent and focuses on singular application or specific movements of body. I can move in other ways and still maintain mechanics, this is because I have been taught over and over that it is not about the techniques but rather to learn my body to move correctly.
Drilling techniques and doing forms teach me the mechanics and to follow them without thinking. It does not teach me how to move in a specific situation because the application drills usually are void of realistic offensive intent. When adding that intent the drill becomes more random in nature and my approach to it becomes something that stems from my training and the very foundation of my body seeking to maintain trained mechanics.
So once more, I am disagreeing that when it in your opinion does not look like the drills it is "sloppy kickboxing". Besides, no fighter will ever be doing WC. WC is a system you train but as for fighting we are not systems, we have a style that we maintain ourselves. It develops based on different systems we have been in contact with.
-If you aren't close enough to the opponent to reach him, then he isn't close enough to reach you! So what is there to be gained by standing sideways? If he is going to be launching a projectile at you, then yeah! I could see how you might want to make yourself a narrower target! But otherwise??? From a Wing Chun perspective when it is ever advantageous to be standing perfectly sideways to an opponent?? (other than when using the long pole)
You have never met a boxer of some kind? Or a taller guy? Believe me, range matters and a boxer will maintain a range for which he can hit you and while squared you will be unable to hit back. If we need to discuss the difference between preferred range of WC vs long range punching then I better just skip this discussion altogether because we wont be able to help each other find new things to think about.
-And again, how many times do I have to point out that I have never said that!!! Why are you putting words in my mouth? Either make a good point or don't. Don't trot out a straw man argument to make yourself feel better.
You are posting videos and stating things such as guard being incorrect, stance not being WC stance and so on. Then you have been saying that if we do not train the way we fight, why train WC at all. That sparring should look like our forms and drills otherwise we better train kickboxing if that is how we look when fighting.
So I turned the words and said the same thing but as a statement about your opinion. If you feel it is bad to train if we do not do sparring as we are doing drills and forms, then you think it is sloppy kickboxing as you call such appearance.
-Should I spell it out again? Geez, how many times do I need to restate this? Wing Chun has a specific core mechanics and structure for sending and receiving force. This is what is trained in the forms and drills and Chi Sau. That core mechanics is flexible enough to allow for some adaptation when needed. But when someone starts doing things like bending over at the waist bobbing and weaving, throwing wide punches by swinging the shoulders, bouncing around on their toes rather than using smooth gliding footwork, punching with their elbows flared outward, violating principles of facing by standing sideways to an opponent, etc....they have abandoned their core Wing Chun biomechanics. THAT is what I have been saying! So do you, Phobius, believe that someone can abandon those core mechanics and resort to "sloppy kickboxing" as I have just described and still be said to be doing Wing Chun???
First of all, bobbing and weaving or similar movement at least can be done while maintaining structure. It does however require practise. Do not assume a boxer has left his back and spine vulnerable because he is moving around. However it of course is not pure Wing Chun, pure Wing Chun is an advanced way of boxing that means you need to be master the elements such as bobbing and weaving to such a degree that you no longer need to use them. What that means to me is that if you can not control the situation you need to know how to bob and weave, and as much as possible try to maintain structure in such a way that you keep the upper hand.
You see, there is a basic knowledge of fighting required in order to be better than it. Not the other way around saying you know no fighting and can train something more advanced to beat regular fighting.
Wide punches are usually a reaction when sparring is failing. Not proper structure but a fighter that is pressured and probably hurt or beat. Usually seen done more often when a fighter is A. believing he is just about to win. or B. in pain and ready to give up, holding on to his last straw.
Swinging shoulders to some degree having a long range punching ability is part of weapon forms in WC. However it is very important to not overdo that movement, same thing applies to most martial arts. Beginners tend to often overdo it and it usually has a punishment attached to it.
Bouncing around on toes I think is a point sparring kind of habit. Often seen introduced I believe (not verified, just my personal theory) when sparring does not have enough offensive intent but becomes more a friendly game of touch. Smooth gliding footwork? Can be steps as well, as this is not a movie. It is not the movement but rather the structure and ability to change path midstep that is important.
Punching with elbows faced outwards is not the same as flared outward. If it can be avoided that is great but for long range punching it might face outward more often than not. Flaring outward however is just sloppy unless doing round punches and in that case those are techniques not taken from WC but rather something the fighter has brought into the game to mix things up.
-Huh? You need to explain that one a little further! As far as whether it is good Wing Chun, you'll have to take that one up with Juany118, because all of the examples I noted as pretty good were all TWC!
It was not the lineage that made them bad, it was the way they were done. It is not even possible to say that it was because the teacher was bad or the student. Could simply be that it was an early phase and they have now improved. Or perhaps it was simply the way they wanted to train that specific day. In some cases they also may not want to relay the proper way of doing sparring because it might be giving too much away in terms of information and rather point to some warmup session or something.
-So you are saying that ALL of the videos were examples of "crappy Wing Chun"????
There is no such possibility of saying something is "crappy Wing Chun". There are just systems people train and then they get a different level of skill based on how much and how they train. So some videos do contain quite a bit of beginners. Others contain people that have spent a lot of time in their life training other arts, leaving it unclear how long they trained Wing Chun and for what purpose they are training it. As such their style may incorporate Wing Chun in exactly the way they wish for it.
