Wing Chun and sparring - staying true to techniques

[DanT]

At my school students start light sparring after a few months. Usually when I introduce sparring I just tell them "okay, I'll attack you, you just block and evade, try to use either lap da or gan da when you can." And then after a couple rounds we rotate (they attack). After about a year, we gear them up (mouth guard, cup, headgear, and gloves) and increase the intensity, and make it more attacking eachother at the same time. I think the key is not making them go crazy, start slow, start smooth, and then eventually increase the contact so that within a year they can spar hard and not get hurt.

-also I have a vid of me sparring, I'll upload it when I have my laptop.

 

[Juany118]

I agree, but my question is to wing Chun people, how true do you stay to your "core" hand techniques (lap, pak, tan, gan, etc) when sparring?

Pak and lap are easy for me to maintain, pak is an instinctive defense and lap is for me as well, perhaps too much because I am so damned used to transitioning to control techniques due to my occupation. Beyond that I will admit I tend to find myself using bil sau more than say a tan sau and if I bong it is usually a jamming bong during an entry. I will inadvertently do tan if my strike is intercepted by an opponent's strike but it's not something I instinctively do in and of itself. I am also find myself using a chuen sau quite liberally on entry as it can jam and cover simultaneously. In short I use many WC techniques but I have practiced to, for the most part, use the ones that are more compatible with natural human reactions.

As for when one should start sparring in WC it all depends on how one is trained in my opinion. Example, if one has adequate drills/san sik, the right students imo can start sparing before CK. YM himself said that a student competent in CK should be able to defend themselves and so at a minimum a student should indeed be sparing before BJ imo.

It is, imo, important to have students start at least "light sparing" when, as an instructor, you believe the student has two things. 1. Simply a solid foundation
2. Adequate control so they can indeed spar "lightly."

Doing the forms, drills, etc do not train the proper reflex reactions, they teach the skills that will be used when the proper reflex reactions are developed. You only develop the proper reflex reactions necessary for a fight under pressure in a dynamic environment and this requires sparring.

 

[drop bear]

Wing chun does spar. Just not until later in some schools

Do you have an example of that?

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Do you have an example of that?

Example of what?

 

[Juany118]

How is there even a contradiction between being good at wing chun or good at sparring?

That is a false dichotomy. The issue usually comes from a few of the following ideas.

1. Like the OP says some of the WC techniques would involve actually maiming, killing an opponent. Ergo if you wish to keep these skills usable you can't spar. The thing is, in my experience, you can spar with using the really dangerous techniques, then when in a life/death situation still instinctively use them. There is something to be said for fearing for your life having you do a neck/throat shot, going for the eyes or destroying a knee with a kick, instead of just trying anoth palm strike that may or may not get the job done.

2. The idea that somehow it will hurt skill development. A lot of YM lineage schools no longer do the "practical drills" (read not lap or chi sau) that were part of YM's system. Recently I even saw people claim YM WC doesn't have such san sik and that is simply not true. So sub lineages I suppose eliminated them, but mine, and others I have researched still have individual and cooperative drills that teach footwork/skill integration and well as power generation, maintaining structure in defense etc.

As footwork doesn't get introduced in the forms until CK (in most YM WC, TWC has a 4th form with some that slots between SLT and CK) and is further added upon in both BJ and MJ, some thus feel you need to do most if not all of these before you can spar.

The thing is, as I said before, YM himself said that a student who is competent with CK should be able to defend himself. We have to remember that is in the context of the san sik he taught as well. Add to that the fact that, in my experience, you need to spar to be competent...Well you need to spar.

You have only to look at the people fighting in competitions who study WC but then look like "regular" kick boxers to see the price of a lack of sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.

actually it is, it's just not like boxing. The pivot is the kung fu way of "head dodging" It takes the head off the centerline. In Jow Ga kung fu, the students learn this early on, but we do not tell them that they are actually dodging. The dodging is built in to the technique so as long as they trust the technique and do the technique as it is trained and drilled then they will be dodging.

I understand why this isn't made clear in the beginning for beginner students, because the purpose of the movement it's to attack and not dodge. From what I understand about Kung Fu systems, they like to use movements that serve multiple purposes. For example, while a person is attacking they are dodging. While a person is dodging they are lining up for attacks. It's never really dodging without something in return. It's more like getting out of the way by stepping into a better position to attack. This doesn't make sense to beginners and if they think of it as a "dodge" then they will get out of the way without being in a position to attack.

Now with wing chun if you think of what the pivot is actually doing then you'll be able to see the dodge that it creates, as a WC student you don't see it as dodge because you were always taught that it was an attack. In your mind you say "this is how we attack" as you look deeper into the technique you will being to see the defensive portion of WC attacks. Technically it's a simultaneous attack and defense that only requires you to focus on attacking using the technique as it's drilled.

 

[drop bear]

1. Like the OP says some of the WC techniques would involve actually maiming, killing an opponent. Ergo if you wish to keep these skills usable you can't spar. The thing is, in my experience, you can spar with using the really dangerous techniques, then when in a life/death situation still instinctively use them. There is something to be said for fearing for your life having you do a neck/throat shot, going for the eyes or destroying a knee with a kick, instead of just trying anoth palm strike that may or may not get the job done.

Bollox.

Ok. Bare with me on this. You can't train kill moves realistically anyway. So i can't see how not including those moves in sparring effects your ability to use them.

If you didn't spar you would go straight from pads or air or however you trained these moves to a life or death fight.

If you did spar you would still go straight from pads to life or death.

So sparring has no negative effect on kill moves.

And i could argue it has a positive effect in regards to timing and movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's never really dodging without something in return.

The reason that you try to dodge are:

1. Your opponent's hay-maker (or hook punch) can be too powerful that you may not be able to block it with 1 arm. Of course you can block it with 2 arms. But sometime your other arm is not available.
2. You want to dodge your opponent's hay-maker (or hook punch) so you can counter back with an uppercut.
3. Sometime it takes less effort to move just the head than to move the whole body.
4. In throwing art, when your opponent's right hand grabs on your left upper collar, a "head leaning" can move your head to the other side of his hold and make his hold not effective.
5. Just dodge a high kick.
6. ...

 

[Juany118]

Bollox.

Ok. Bare with me on this. You can't train kill moves realistically anyway. So i can't see how not including those moves in sparring effects your ability to use them.

If you didn't spar you would go straight from pads or air or however you trained these moves to a life or death fight.

If you did spar you would still go straight from pads to life or death.

So sparring has no negative effect on kill moves.

And i could argue it has a positive effect in regards to timing and movement.

My point was that it is indeed bollox and that sparing without "kill shots" doesn't change the fact you can still use them effectively when needed. This is however used as an excuse by some instructors though to excuse why they don't use sparing. It's bollox but they still says it. If you want to learn to really fight you must spar.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.

Do you ever dodge a crescent kick, hook kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, or jumping kick to the head?

You may not use those kicks in WC but you can't prevent others from using those kicks on you.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

actually it is, it's just not like boxing. The pivot is the kung fu way of "head dodging" It takes the head off the centerline. In Jow Ga kung fu, the students learn this early on, but we do not tell them that they are actually dodging. The dodging is built in to the technique so as long as they trust the technique and do the technique as it is trained and drilled then they will be dodging.

I understand why this isn't made clear in the beginning for beginner students, because the purpose of the movement it's to attack and not dodge. From what I understand about Kung Fu systems, they like to use movements that serve multiple purposes. For example, while a person is attacking they are dodging. While a person is dodging they are lining up for attacks. It's never really dodging without something in return. It's more like getting out of the way by stepping into a better position to attack. This doesn't make sense to beginners and if they think of it as a "dodge" then they will get out of the way without being in a position to attack.

Now with wing chun if you think of what the pivot is actually doing then you'll be able to see the dodge that it creates, as a WC student you don't see it as dodge because you were always taught that it was an attack. In your mind you say "this is how we attack" as you look deeper into the technique you will being to see the defensive portion of WC attacks. Technically it's a simultaneous attack and defense that only requires you to focus on attacking using the technique as it's drilled.

Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike.

Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade

 

[Juany118]

Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike.

Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade

The only thing I would say is that while what you speak of is what we should do, there are times in a real fight when you have to say "screw it" and break the rules. I have come out on top in sparring more than once because someone insisted on keeping their head there when I managed to "set them up" in such a way that they weren't in a position to effectively counter my attack. Conversely I have been similarly "set up" and because I didn't mind "matrixing" while I release stepped the blow which would have rung my bell fell short.

Von Moltke once said "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.". I think when @Kung Fu Wang speaks about moving the head it is in those circumstances when the battle plan fails because of the dynamic nature of a fight.

 

[drop bear]

Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike.

Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade

Head doesn't really move independently of the body regardless of the system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But it is their art. They should be able to organise sparring in some manner that allows them to functionally aply it.

I mean capoeira spar. And they are as far removed from kickboxing as you can get.

Good point. I guess the way I'm looking at it is this: if delaying sparring allows a better focus on some of the principles of WC, then a focus on specifically getting good at sparring in a generic sense might override those principles. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm over-thinking this.

 

[KPM]

The "head dodging" doesn't exist in any of those 3 WC forms. Why?

Actually, it doesn't exist in any of the CMA forms that I know (except 2 men form). In other words, you can only learn "head dodging" through sparring.

Some lineages have "head dodging" in the last section of their Biu Gee form. Its actually "dodging" with the entire body because you lean back at the waist, but it is effectively the same thing.

 

[KPM]

What's your goal?

- To be a good general fighter, or
- To be a good WC fighter?

I can only speak for myself. I want to be a good general fighter. I don't want any MA system to tell me how I should fight. I'll use any technique, any strategy, from any MA system as long as it can help my fighting ability.

That was the question I asked in that other thread! .....Are you sparring to be good at sparring, or to be good at Wing Chun? If your goal is to be good at sparring, then why wouldn't you train one of the "tried and true" styles that dominate sparring contests? And that would be one of the kickboxing variations....American Kickboxing, Thai Boxing, MMA kickboxing, etc! You are wasting your time training Wing Chun or any traditional martial art if you entire goal is to be good at sparring.

Now, you actually said "general fighter vs. WC fighter." But what does that mean? Is sparring the sole representation of fighting? If someone can't keep their Wing Chun structure and technique during a sparring contest, then how likely are they going to keep it under pressure in a real fight? And if you don't see the WC structure and techniques as being applicable and workable in a real fight, then why are you training them?

Things fall apart under pressure, no doubt. But shouldn't the goal be to train to a level such that they fall apart as little as possible? Sparring is valuable in that regard. You put it all under the pressure of sparring and see what falls apart. Then you go back and work on that so that it doesn't fall apart!!! But IMHO, to just accept or expect those things to happen because its sparring and "Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when used for real".....is a load of BS and wrong thinking. Wing Chun people should NOT accept that a Wing Chun person sparring can look just like any kickboxer and be unidentifiable as a Wing Chun fighter. When I see a sparring clip that is labeled "Wing Chun vs. X" and I can't figure out who is supposed to be the Wing Chun guy...then something is wrong!

 

[drop bear]

Good point. I guess the way I'm looking at it is this: if delaying sparring allows a better focus on some of the principles of WC, then a focus on specifically getting good at sparring in a generic sense might override those principles. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm over-thinking this.

Ok. gumby capo sparring. They dont turn into kickboxers. They obviously dont have the principles down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. gumby capo sparring. They dont turn into kickboxers. They obviously dont have the principles down.

I think this actually gets to what I'm thinking. If someone wants to get good at sparring (in general) fast, then they'd need to abandon some of the principles and feeds you see in a roda. If they want to get good at Capo, they need to keep those things. I guess I think of "good at sparring" as being good at sparring with people outside your art. That might not be what others are thinking.

 

[DanT]

Pak and lap are easy for me to maintain, pak is an instinctive defense and lap is for me as well, perhaps too much because I am so damned used to transitioning to control techniques due to my occupation. Beyond that I will admit I tend to find myself using bil sau more than say a tan sau and if I bong it is usually a jamming bong during an entry. I will inadvertently do tan if my strike is intercepted by an opponent's strike but it's not something I instinctively do in and of itself. I am also find myself using a chuen sau quite liberally on entry as it can jam and cover simultaneously. In short I use many WC techniques but I have practiced to, for the most part, use the ones that are more compatible with natural human reactions.

As for when one should start sparring in WC it all depends on how one is trained in my opinion. Example, if one has adequate drills/san sik, the right students imo can start sparing before CK. YM himself said that a student competent in CK should be able to defend themselves and so at a minimum a student should indeed be sparing before BJ imo.

It is, imo, important to have students start at least "light sparing" when, as an instructor, you believe the student has two things. 1. Simply a solid foundation
2. Adequate control so they can indeed spar "lightly."

Doing the forms, drills, etc do not train the proper reflex reactions, they teach the skills that will be used when the proper reflex reactions are developed. You only develop the proper reflex reactions necessary for a fight under pressure in a dynamic environment and this requires sparring.

I agree, I primarily use Pak to block high straight attacks, Gan Da to block low attacks, and Tan Da to block high off angle attacks. When I close the gap I use lap da often, as well as tan da and occasionally pak da. I never use bong, ever. At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?

 

[Juany118]

I agree, I primarily use Pak to block high straight attacks, Gan Da to block low attacks, and Tan Da to block high off angle attacks. When I close the gap I use lap da often, as well as tan da and occasionally pak da. I never use bong, ever. At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?

ONLY if I am using it as what we call a "jamming" bong. It is far from traditional but essentially as you enter you "jam" the opponents limb with a quickly established bong. This leads easily into a lap da in order to trap and also, if it doesn't quite work, still has the bong limb in a good position to "cover" what else may be coming. I also use gan as you do BUT I tend to instinctively do a gum instead of gan for low arm strikes. For low kicks waist height and lower I actually tend to use my legs. I purposely trained this later part because my arms are... well damn skinny but due to all the running and cycling I do my legs are, not to sound immodest, very strong.