Wing Chun Sparring

[KPM]

I posted this one before. This is labeled as "Wing Chun no MMA." Don't watch from the beginning. Skip forward to the 2 1/12 minute mark so you don't see the corner guys who give it away. Watch from the 2 1/2 minute mark and see if you can easily tell which guy is the Wing Chun guy.

Check out this one. This is a little better, but if it wasn't labeled as "Wing Chun" would you immediately recognize it? There is some nice straight punches. But styles other than Wing Chun use nice straight punches as well.

I don't see much Wing Chun structure in this one:

No Wing Chun structure here:

I'm still not quite sure which guy is supposed to be the Wing Chun guy in this one!

Now watch this one. This is Brian Desar. If I watched this video with no label I would have no problem saying "Hey, these guys are doing Wing Chun!" It isn't "picture perfect" Wing Chun, and I'll assume Brian would look at this and recognize areas were he could improve his Wing Chun from going back and watching the footage.

Wing Chun Sparring

Here is another good one from the TWC ranks. Now tell me, does anyone have any problem recognizing which guy is doing Wing Chun here? Shouldn't that be the rule and not the exception? Why is it that this guy can maintain pretty good Wing Chun structure under pressure when everyone here seems to think it can't be done????

Wing Chun v kick boxer

Here's another one from TWC. Anyone have any problems spotting the Wing Chun here? So obviously, IT CAN BE DONE....under pressure!

WING CHUN vs MMA

Even without the uniforms, would anyone have any trouble knowing who is who here?

Wing Chun vs Kyokushin Karate - Dojo Invasion Compilation


My point all along has not been that everyone looks like kickboxing when they spar with Wing Chun. My point has been why do we see it as natural and acceptable when someone resorts to looking like sloppy kickboxing when they spar? Why do we have so many people willing to shout out that "Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when you fight with Wing Chun!!!!" Really? I think the people in the last several videos above would disagree!!! Why is it that too many seem to have such a lower standard for Wing Chun in sparring compared to Wing Chun in training? (including people that have been responding to this discussion!)

 

[KPM]

Can you provide an example then that I can watch?

---Videos above!

Also I wasn't clear on your last response to Danny. Are you saying you think a round kick and a hook punch (as examples) go against WC principles?

---If you are bending over at the waist and swinging from the shoulders to do a hook punch...yes, you are going against Wing Chun principles. If you are leaning far backwards and trying to round kick a standing opponent to the head....yes, you are going against Wing Chun principles.


There is a big difference between the pressure applied in each. In the end when real pressure is applied all you really need to do is adhere to core principles, not appearance, and win.

---If you are adhering to core Wing Chun mechanics and principles it should somewhat resemble Wing Chun. The videos above show that. Again, the forms are a reference for how we move when we do our Wing Chun. Why should we be moving drastically different when sparring?? And if we aren't moving drastically different, why wouldn't it look like Wing Chun???? Why are people's standards so much lower for sparring compared to training?

 

[Juany118]

Can you provide an example then that I can watch?

---Videos above!

Also I wasn't clear on your last response to Danny. Are you saying you think a round kick and a hook punch (as examples) go against WC principles?

---If you are bending over at the waist and swinging from the shoulders to do a hook punch...yes, you are going against Wing Chun principles. If you are leaning far backwards and trying to round kick a standing opponent to the head....yes, you are going against Wing Chun principles.


There is a big difference between the pressure applied in each. In the end when real pressure is applied all you really need to do is adhere to core principles, not appearance, and win.

---If you are adhering to core Wing Chun mechanics and principles it should somewhat resemble Wing Chun. The videos above show that. Again, the forms are a reference for how we move when we do our Wing Chun. Why should we be moving drastically different when sparring?? And if we aren't moving drastically different, why wouldn't it look like Wing Chun???? Why are people's standards so much lower for sparring compared to training?

Well the first video is a bad choice in general. It is MMA after all.

The second video I saw it. The short guy especially largely kept proper upright structure I saw at least one lan sau into a fak used as a take down, I saw paks and tans my WC includes tight round kicks like you saw there etc. Was their "sliding" or "shuffling" foot work? No, not really but at the same time my school teaches us to be on the balls of our feet and to pick them up because it allows for quicker movement and direction changes in small spaces. A perfect example is this. Students of Ip Chun's Lineage when you turn, to either avoid an attack or to change your angle of attack, you pivot on the heel, Leung Ting Lineage they pivot on the balls of the foot, In Grand Master William Cheung's Lineage we actually lift our foot and step.

The black and white one is two guys screwing around.

The one vs TKD, the guy in the black shirt is the WC guy. Eventually he is holding his hands that way because the other guy keeps throwing low kicks, why not be ready? Would I do that? Maybe not, but it was pretty obvious to me at least.

The last one is actually the one when I was referring to what amounts to a demonstration fight

I never said you can't "look pretty" when under pressure. What I said was that under pressure you simply have to adhere to the core principles. What are the core principles? The three parts of Centerline theory, that I never meet force with force, that I simultaneously attack and defend, that I use economy of motion and that at the moment of attack or when I am deflecting blows I ensure I am grounded and using the centerline concepts to have my skeletal structure as the primary support for my attack and defense.

The trick is to learn how it "feels" in the "classic" stance, then you can "feel" the same way in modified stances that the dynamics of a fight may force upon you but the appearance has VERY little to do with adhering to the actual principles. Now if someone takes a modified stance too far, such as leaning forward in a modern western boxing pose, if they are throwing their weight behind strikes instead of keeping the weight behind them. I really don't see why its so hard to understand that the principles of Wing Chun still function when you don't have the "classic" stance.

Again will you use that stance in training? Yes, because you want to continuously remind yourself what it feels like to be properly grounded, to protect and attack from your centerline etc. However so long as you know what that feels like you can still apply those principles in what someone who say is not a "WC" stance. Now there are limits as I said but you don't have to dogmatically adhere to appearance to adhere to principles. Here is a full video that I think kinda proves my point.

Now maybe it's my Lineage, it's what Sifu Jerry teaches (I have actually studied under him a bit and he may be moving permanently to my school). Here is the whole fight vs the one little bit I showed earlier.

Is it pretty? Nope. Should that guy have been matched up against Sifu Jerry (ummm no, but thats unsanctioned "lets prove who the toughest is" round robin competitions.) The white shirt however was the guy always trying to look "Classic" WC. Sifu Jerry still consistently applied the WC principles BUT there were times he didn't "look" WC.

 

[wckf92]

---If you are adhering to core Wing Chun mechanics and principles it should somewhat resemble Wing Chun.

Well then, perhaps the issue here is that there are just so many different "wing chun's" out there and that is why everyone thinks what they are doing (forms, drills, applications, sparring, etc) are all correct(?). I mean, is it a simple case of 'truth is in the eye of the beholder' ?

 

[KPM]

Well then, perhaps the issue here is that there are just so many different "wing chun's" out there and that is why everyone thinks what they are doing (forms, drills, applications, sparring, etc) are all correct(?). I mean, is it a simple case of 'truth is in the eye of the beholder' ?

I don't know about that. In the videos I posted you have a range from Ip Chun Wing Chun to William Cheung Wing Chun, which are fairly different. Yet they were both recognizable as Wing Chun. There may be many different "wing chun's" out there, but they all still stick pretty close to a core biomechanics.

 

[KPM]

Well the first video is a bad choice in general. It is MMA after all.

---True! But the video is labeled "Shaolin Wing Chun no MMA." And this is one of those times when the question is asked "But where is the Wing Chun?" and people get all butt-hurt and come back with "but Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when you really use it! Why are you so stuck on appearances?"


The second video I saw it.

---Then it was pretty crappy Wing Chun! Is that Ok? Again, do we have a lower standard when it comes to Wing Chun when sparring compared to Wing Chun when training? Why is that?


The black and white one is two guys screwing around.

---Yeah, but if you look for other videos of him talking about sparring or demonstrating, he has no Wing Chun structure in those either.


The one vs TKD, the guy in the black shirt is the WC guy. Eventually he is holding his hands that way because the other guy keeps throwing low kicks, why not be ready? Would I do that? Maybe not, but it was pretty obvious to me at least.

---So you're saying Wing Chun has no answer for low kicks? Again, no Wing Chun structure or mechanics there. Why did he feel the need to abandon his Wing Chun mechanics just because the other guy was throwing low kicks? He had no confidence in his Wing Chun?



The trick is to learn how it "feels" in the "classic" stance, then you can "feel" the same way in modified stances that the dynamics of a fight may force upon you but the appearance has VERY little to do with adhering to the actual principles.

---Its more than principles. Its structure and mechanics as well. Did you have any trouble picking out the Wing Chun guys in those last videos based on appearance alone? If you are adhering to Wing Chun mechanics, it can't help but look like Wing Chun. If you are abandoning Wing Chun mechanics (not individual techniques), then it likely won't look much like Wing Chun.


Now if someone takes a modified stance too far, such as leaning forward in a modern western boxing pose, if they are throwing their weight behind strikes instead of keeping the weight behind them. I really don't see why its so hard to understand that the principles of Wing Chun still function when you don't have the "classic" stance.

---So is JKD actually Wing Chun? JKD uses a different core mechanics but still uses a lot of Wing Chun principles and even techniques. So is JKD the same thing as Wing Chun? IMHO, it takes more than having a handful of principles to say you are doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun has a specific biomechanics for sending and receiving force. How many times have I said that now? Does anyone disagree with that?




Is it pretty? Nope. Should that guy have been matched up against Sifu Jerry (ummm no, but thats unsanctioned "lets prove who the toughest is" round robin competitions.) The white shirt however was the guy always trying to look "Classic" WC. Sifu Jerry still consistently applied the WC principles BUT there were times he didn't "look" WC.

---Sifu Jerry kept his Wing Chun structure pretty decently through-out. He never resort to the "sloppy kickboxing" that I've been talking about. This video is not an example of what I have been asking people about. Now compare your video to the first 5 videos I posted. You honestly don't see a difference???

 

[KPM]

Wong Shun Leung was not a fan of "bobbing and weaving."

 

[Nobody Important]

Honestly, not as well as many believe. Wing Chun has good theory & strategy, but in many cases this strategy is best utilized using a different method. I know, I’m a heretic.

----Another "damning statement" about Wing Chun. That's what, 3 now?


To an extent yes, but this requires limiting what from Wing Chun is used. Take for example using Wing Chun techniques solely for boxing (no kicking, elbows, trapping), would it look drastically different from boxing?

---Maybe, maybe not. Last I was taught Wing Chun doesn't throw straight punches with the elbows all flared out like some boxers. Last I was taught, Wing Chun doesn't bend over at the waist and swing from the shoulders when punching like a lot of boxers. So why would you expect a Wing Chun guy and a boxer to look alike when in a punching situation if the way they train to punch is drastically different?


There are prominent theories suggesting that Wing Chun was heavily influenced by western bare knuckle boxing. I surmise that if you eliminated a fair amount of the techniques to conform to a boxing rule set, it’ll look like boxing with some semblance of Wing Chun structure.

---No. It will look somewhat like "old school" boxing, which is pretty distinct from modern boxing. And you know why? Because "old school" boxing (London Prize Ring era) used very upright stances, very straight punches with the elbows down, defenses that resemble Wing Chun techniques rather than bobbing and weaving, a centerline orientation with somewhat of a "shuffling" footwork, etc. "Old school" boxing had a distinct "look" (I know! There's that word again!). It gradually evolved into modern boxing. If you laid out B&W photos from that older era next to B&W photos from 30 years later you could easily pic out which is which. Why? Because they use different body mechanics that are recognizable.



The higher the stress level the greater the ability to react, use sensitivity and perform small movements. I don’t know anyone beyond those individuals that actually fight regularly who can maintain the necessary motor skill involved in complex martial arts that require strict structure protocols. It is a perishable skill if not trained regularly, repetition only goes so far, fear also has to be present to condition a mind that can react under duress.

---And, as I stated before....core body mechanics...the essential way you move....should be a gross motor skill or there is something wrong with your training. That is the essential thing that sparring should be testing. If your basic structure breaks down under the stress of sparring then you know you need to go back and do some more training. But it seems too many be are content to just assume that their basic structure is going to fail under pressure and accept that.




As far as striking and kicking go, there are some better and more powerful methods. To ignore the usefulness of these methods is to limit yourself. Even Yip Man was known to confuse his students by striking them with a technique or two he picked up from Choy Lay Fut.

---Striking them with a technique from another system so that they have seen it and learn how to deal with it is far different than incorporating that technique into your own fighting system. I have never heard of Ip Man "mixing and matching" and including a CLT kick here, a Hung Kuen uppercut there, etc into his own fighting method.




The posture of Wing Chun isn’t natural for boxing, it is based upon Zhan Zhuang, which is Chi Kung posture for energy cultivation. It isn’t as easy to maintain because it is smaller making it harder to generate power. I know this is the whole idea behind the postures, but when stressed we will seek familiarity and comfort in movement and posture, why not exploit it?

----I disagree. The posture for Wing Chun is an upright alignment with a natural spacing of the feet. This is much more natural and easy to do compared to the low extended stances of a lot of TCMAs. That upright posture is used to smoothly transmit force and maintain structure in a "Wing Chun way." The only thing that makes it "unnatural" for boxing is when people start swinging from their shoulders and "hunching over" as a defense. Those are all seen as mistakes in Wing Chun training, so why shouldn't they be seen as mistakes in Wing Chun sparring?



Any art is just a tool, take what is useful and discard what isn’t If your goal is to be able to effectively defend yourself, why does it have to look cool? Personally I don’t care if I look like a mentally retarded meth addict with Tourette’s as long as I win. You don’t win fights with style points.

---Do you get in a lot of fights where you live? Are you around mentally retarded meth addicts much? Again, this goes back to my previous question.....are you training to be good at Wing Chun, or are you training to be good at sparring/fighting? If you are training to be good at sparring, then something like kickboxing would serve you better if that is what people in general seem to resort to when sparring.

We can go back & forth all day, especially when you cherry pick and/or take things out of context. So here's the deal......Are you able to effectively defend yourself in a real fight using Wing Chun that looks like Wing Chun?Or is it going to look like a combination of different methods, you know, like kick Boxing?

You ask if people are training to be good at Wing Chun or good at sparring, I surmise what's the difference if Wing Chun is an art of combat? If you're looking for effective self defense why can you not deviate from an art? Wing Chun is limited, it has no real ground game, yet adding BJJ to supplement doesn't seem to be an issue, so why would adding in something else.

Wing Chun is not all inclusive, regardless of what purists say. It is a specialty method best used to augment IMO. I know another damning statement, so what! It's not like I'm gonna get kicked out of the Wing Chun fanboy club, I was never a member to begin with.

Allen Orr calls his stuff Wing Chun, you enrolled in his online course, you must have thought it was Wing Chun looking enough to study it.

If the art you study is so rigid that you are not allowed to deviate from what's been interpreted for you, if you cannot interpret it's movements and techniques based on your own revelations, why study it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

sloppy kickboxing ...

Have you ever considered that "kickboxing" may be the most effective way in fighting?

If your opponent
- uses straight punches at your face, you spin your body and use a hay-maker to knock him down.
- switch sides in the middle of the fight, your back leg roundhouse kick at his chest without thinking.
- ...

Even if "hay-maker" and "roundhouse kick" may not exist in your MA system, if you spar long enough, you will pick it up, find it useful, and make yourself become a kick boxer.

Without wrestling jacket, wrestlers, Judo guys, Aikido guys will all use "under-hook" and "over-hook" on the mat even if both moves may not be in their daily major grappling art training. When your opponent uses

- under-hook on you, it forces you to be in the over-hook position.
- over-hook on you, it forces you to be in the under-hook position.

In other words, if your opponent is a kick boxer and if "he dominate the fight" he will force you to fight like a kick boxer no matter you like it or not. of course if you take your opponent down within 3 seconds, you will fight like a wrestler instead.

 

[Phobius]

Another thing people miss as well, when experience differences are too great in a fight and one guy gets his behind whooped. His technique and posture will often go out the window often, reason being that what may be called sparring is more resembling a fight with rules. Often there is little understanding that sparring is done for training purposes.

As for some one of those examples above. I just realize if this is the point of the discussion I better go and train instead. Approaching a martial art system as a bible is not something that fits me very well. Thinking that just because first forms and drills only teach short range combat that long range combat is the same is just strange in my view. Weapon forms show me ways to do long range punching, having a forward bend, not being straight to my opponent. Importance and difficulty is of course to maintain proper structure and not surrender your shoulders.

 

[KPM]

We can go back & forth all day, especially when you cherry pick and/or take things out of context.

---So just what have I "cherry picked" or taken out of context? I think I have asked some very legitimate and tough questions to which I haven't gotten very good answers. Hopefully I've made people think a bit deeper about this topic as well.


So here's the deal......Are you able to effectively defend yourself in a real fight using Wing Chun that looks like Wing Chun?Or is it going to look like a combination of different methods, you know, like kick Boxing?

----And I've asked the question....are you training to get good at Wing Chun? Or are you (general "you") training to get good at sparring? Because if the answer is you only want to be good at sparring and fighting, them maybe it would be better to take up something like kickboxing, Muay Thai, or MMA. That would be a much more efficient use of training time if you think you are going to end up fighting like a kickboxer or MMA guy! Personally I don't live in an area or frequent areas where I have a high risk of getting attacked on the street. I study martial arts for personal development and because I enjoy them......not to be the "baddest mother F'er on the planet"! Being able to defend myself well is a good and desirable product, but not the main reason I study martial arts. I spar to get feedback about how well I am making my Wing Chun work. If I end up doing some version of kickboxing in order to win the exchange, then my Wing Chun obviously needs some work ! Why is that so hard to accept? Why do you think is it Ok to just abandon good Wing Chun structure and mechanics in a sparring situation?



You ask if people are training to be good at Wing Chun or good at sparring, I surmise what's the difference if Wing Chun is an art of combat?

---I've said it multiple times....efficiency! If you spend all your training time doing Wing Chun, and then spar more or less like a kickboxer, then you are being very inefficient with your training if doing well in sparring is your goal! Isn't that just common sense?



If you're looking for effective self defense why can you not deviate from an art? Wing Chun is limited, it has no real ground game, yet adding BJJ to supplement doesn't seem to be an issue, so why would adding in something else.

---I've already stated that since Wing Chun has no ground game I see nothing at all wrong with transitioning from Wing Chun to BJJ or something similar. That is not what I have been talking about.


Wing Chun is not all inclusive, regardless of what purists say. It is a specialty method best used to augment IMO. I know another damning statement, so what!

---Yes. Damning statement #4! But it seems guys like Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung didn't feel the need to "augment."


Allen Orr calls his stuff Wing Chun, you enrolled in his online course, you must have thought it was Wing Chun looking enough to study it.

---Yes! And the things he teaches in his course "look" very much like Wing Chun because they are Wing Chun! He explains the core mechanics and principles very well. And those core mechanics do not include bending over at the waist and swinging from the shoulders when throwing punches, or bending over way back and throwing high roundhouse kicks to the head, or bending forward at the waist bobbing and weaving. I'm not saying that doesn't happen when his guys are fighting MMA. I'm just saying his on-line course teaches very good "classical" Wing Chun mechanics.



If the art you study is so rigid that you are not allowed to deviate from what's been interpreted for you, if you cannot interpret it's movements and techniques based on your own revelations, why study it.

----No. The better statement would be...."if you are going to abandon the core mechanics and principles of the art you study when you spar and get put under a little pressure, then why study it?" There is room to "deviate" within the mechanics of Wing Chun without abandoning them so completely that it no longer looks like Wing Chun. I provided video above to prove it!

 

[KPM]

Have you ever considered that "kickboxing" may be the most effective way in fighting?

.

Well, yeah! I've already said that if kickboxing is going to be the most effective way of sparring/fighting, then people should be studying kickboxing if their goal is to be good at sparring/fighting! I've already said that if someone feels like the best thing is using somewhat of a kickboxing structure but with some Wing Chun techniques and principles, then JKD might be just what they need! Are you guys actually reading my posts? I seem to be saying the same things over and over.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've already said that if someone feels like the best thing is using somewhat of a kickboxing structure but with some Wing Chun techniques and principles, then JKD might be just what they need!

We agree each other on that 100% and no argument there.

I have used long fist and Chinese wrestling to help my students to reach to Sanda/Sanshou (a super set of kickboxing). To me, both long fist and Chinese wrestling are just the paths and not the final goal.

 

[Nobody Important]

---So just what have I "cherry picked" or taken out of context? I think I have asked some very legitimate and tough questions to which I haven't gotten very good answers. Hopefully I've made people think a bit deeper about this topic as well.

Most everything I wrote you've cherry picked. I've attempted to explain why I feel that Wing Chun form is abandoned in sparring or fighting, you've deflected, dismissed or taken out of context. I've explained my position at length. Maybe you should ask yourself why it's so. You obviously want to argue my thoughts instead of examining your own questions.

----And I've asked the question....are you training to get good at Wing Chun? Or are you (general "you") training to get good at sparring? Because if the answer is you only want to be good at sparring and fighting, them maybe it would be better to take up something like kickboxing, Muay Thai, or MMA. That would be a much more efficient use of training time if you think you are going to end up fighting like a kickboxer or MMA guy! Personally I don't live in an area or frequent areas where I have a high risk of getting attacked on the street. I study martial arts for personal development and because I enjoy them......not to be the "baddest mother F'er on the planet"! Being able to defend myself well is a good and desirable product, but not the main reason I study martial arts. I spar to get feedback about how well I am making my Wing Chun work. If I end up doing some version of kickboxing in order to win the exchange, then my Wing Chun obviously needs some work ! Why is that so hard to accept? Why do you think is it Ok to just abandon good Wing Chun structure and mechanics in a sparring situation?

I study what ever is useful to me, I care little for art. If your main reason isn't for fighting purposes, why do you care about it? The only way to insure that you can use an art exclusively is to pressure test often!

---I've said it multiple times....efficiency! If you spend all your training time doing Wing Chun, and then spar more or less like a kickboxer, then you are being very inefficient with your training if doing well in sparring is your goal! Isn't that just common sense?

Efficiency or looking for that magical belief in being able to effectively use Wing Chun with as little effort as possible. What do you care if others look like sloppy kick boxers when sparring, are they you?

---I've already stated that since Wing Chun has no ground game I see nothing at all wrong with transitioning from Wing Chun to BJJ or something similar. That is not what I have been talking about.

I don't think Wing Chun has a real strong stand up game, so I don't see any issues with augmenting that part. Disagree all you want. I appreciate the theory and strategy the art offers, not so much the techniques it employs.


---Yes. Damning statement #4! But it seems guys like Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung didn't feel the need to "augment."

Yes #4 am I disbarred now? I'm not allowed to speak out against the art. I like Wing Chun, but I'm not a fervent believer in it being the best art in existence. It has flaws IMO.


---Yes! And the things he teaches in his course "look" very much like Wing Chun because they are Wing Chun! He explains the core mechanics and principles very well. And those core mechanics do not include bending over at the waist and swinging from the shoulders when throwing punches, or bending over way back and throwing high roundhouse kicks to the head, or bending forward at the waist bobbing and weaving. I'm not saying that doesn't happen when his guys are fighting MMA. I'm just saying his on-line course teaches very good "classical" Wing Chun mechanics.

Really!!?? Because not so long ago you threw a tantrum stating you couldn't tell it apart from MMA. But now that you have some insight, you can suddenly see the Wing Chun, where you couldn't before. I stated that I could see the principles present, you argued that wasn't enough because the structure wasn't apparent. Smh

----No. The better statement would be...."if you are going to abandon the core mechanics and principles of the art you study when you spar and get put under a little pressure, then why study it?" There is room to "deviate" within the mechanics of Wing Chun without abandoning them so completely that it no longer looks like Wing Chun. I provided video above to prove it!

I never stated to abandon them completely, I stated at times deviation is needed, even required.

 

[drop bear]

What does WC even look like? What you do in training is building the skills, learning the principles etc. Do I use another MA simply because once a fight starts I keep my hands in fists and not open? Am I using a different art because when I move I move on my toes but when I attack or defend I am still maintaining proper structure? Obviously "looking like" WC, imo, is about clearly demonstrating the principles of the art. The structure, tight footwork etc that forms the foundation upon which the techniques are applied from.

I don't know of any traditional MA that "looks" like it does in training in Lei Tai, sparring etc. However if you look at the fight you will see them applying the principles and techniques of the art. The reason for it is this. Especially when facing people fighting using other systems your actions are not solely dictated by you but by the actions of your opponent. As such what makes it WC is do they maintain their structure? Do they protect, and attack, from their centerline? Are they disrupting and are they attacking their opponents center? Are they pressing forward and applying constant pressure unless forced to back off? Etc. If so they are doing WC.

WC is a conceptual MA based on core principles. So long as the principles are held to and the techniques based on these principles are used then it's WC.

You can still maintain these core principles without the appearance you see in training. The appearance in training is so the new student can learn how it "feels" to be "grounded" via structure so that attacks start from the ground and the the force of incoming attacks go through the body into the ground and don't get "bound" up in the "jelly" at your hips and thus disrupting your center. Once you know how this feels, you can achieve it without a "classic" appearing stance. If you marry yourself to what are ultimately training tools, it will limit how you can react in a real fight.

Any traditional arts that do alive training. Judo. Sumo. Boxing. Wrestling. Fighting looks like training.

Arts that dont. Start to stray away from their fighting appearence.

Sorry more accurately where their centerpoint is alive training. So the martial art looks like the sparring because that is the martial art.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. I think people need to understand a little bit more about kickboxing if we are going to use it as an example.

Kickboxing was originally a vehicle for tkd and karate guys. Back in the shiny pants era of the 80,s it looked like this.

And would be considered as traditional as kickboxing gets if it had that mindset. But because you can kickbox any way you want you got people from all sorts of styles come in and do their own thing.

Famously there was a massive change when the Thai guys appeared on the scene and started winning.

Watch that video. It is important.

Basically after that fight. The outcry was."well f you want to learn the art of kickboxing then you should train our way. If you want to just kick guys legs to bits. Then do that"

See where this starts to sound similar?

So kickboxing really dosent look like kickboxing either. It looks like kickboxing fighting.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2 general questions for those who has concern about "fight like a kick boxer".

1. When you stand in front of your heavy bag, do you have the desire to roundhouse kick at that bag?

2. After you have learned roundhouse kick just by kicking on your heavy bag, do you ever question why roundhouse kick is not in your particular MA style?

 

[KPM]

Most everything I wrote you've cherry picked. I've attempted to explain why I feel that Wing Chun form is abandoned in sparring or fighting, you've deflected, dismissed or taken out of context. I've explained my position at length. Maybe you should ask yourself why it's so. You obviously want to argue my thoughts instead of examining your own questions.

----Oh now come on! I've gave my reasons for why good Wing Chun should stay good Wing Chun even when sparring and your responses have essentially been "but it doesn't!!!" You've deflected and dismissed what I have had to say in every post. I have been making the point that good Wing Chun structure and mechanics shouldn't be abandoned, and don't HAVE to be abandoned under pressure. I've even provided video showing people maintaining their Wing Chun structure under pressure. My question has been....why has it become acceptable by some to abandon good Wing Chun structure and mechanics in sparring? What has been your response? Essentially it has been...."because it happens!" So who is deflecting here? I've been keeping this on friendly terms because this is just a discussion to get people to think a bit. So why are you going and getting nasty about things???



I study what ever is useful to me, I care little for art. If your main reason isn't for fighting purposes, why do you care about it? The only way to insure that you can use an art exclusively is to pressure test often!

---Very true! And what is your conclusion when the basic structure and mechanics of your art break down under pressure???



Efficiency or looking for that magical belief in being able to effectively use Wing Chun with as little effort as possible. What do you care if others look like sloppy kick boxers when sparring, are they you?

---They can look like sloppy kickboxers all they want! Again, my position has simply been to ask the questions...why has it become so acceptable by some to abandon good Wing Chun when sparring? Why do some have a lower standard for Wing Chun in sparring compared to Wing Chun in training? Why do people get all offended when you point out to them that their Wing Chun has broken down and disappeared when they spar? Why do people think that Wing Chun in sparring shouldn't actually LOOK like Wing Chun? Why does it NOT seem like common sense to assert that Wing Chun has a certain structure and mechanics for sending and receiving force. This is trained in the forms and drills. They are there for a reason. Why do you think it is perfectly acceptable to toss all that out the window when sparring? Why do you think that this is a "magical belief"? I think those are pretty straight-forward questions. But based on your last few responses, it seems my points may be hitting a little too close to home! Have you lost all faith in YOUR WIng Chun?? Why are you defending the "sloppy kickboxers" that call what they do "Wing Chun"?




I don't think Wing Chun has a real strong stand up game,

---I guess that's my answer then. You seem to be taking offense at my points and position because you HAVE lost faith in your Wing Chun as a fighting art. But there's nothing wrong with that! However, maybe you feel like you have been wasting your time training Wing Chun rather than something more "kickboxing-like"? My apologies if what I have been saying has touched a nerve in that regard. But its never too late to learn something new! Personally, I have recently started studying Pentjak Silat Bukti Negara and am really enjoying it!



Yes #4 am I disbarred now? I'm not allowed to speak out against the art. I like Wing Chun, but I'm not a fervent believer in it being the best art in existence. It has flaws IMO.

----I agree with that part! To some extent I have been playing the "devil's advocate" here. But it also points out a big hypocrisy in Wing Chun circles for those guys that talk up their chun and then abandon it under pressure. All you have needed to say in these various exchanges here is that you DON'T think "classical" Wing Chun works well in sparring/fighting in today's environment. That is a perfectly valid opinion and you could come up with many good points to support that opinion!




Really!!?? Because not so long ago you threw a tantrum stating you couldn't tell it apart from MMA

---I said that I couldn't tell some of the MMA bouts that his guys were in apart from standard MMA. I still can't at times! I still think that for the most part they are doing more MMA than Wing Chun when they get in the ring.




I never stated to abandon them completely, I stated at times deviation is needed, even required.

----We have both said that. I said there is enough flexibility within Wing Chun that it doesn't have to be "deviated" to the point that it no longer resembles Wing Chun. If you believe that is untrue, that simply say so. Otherwise it seems we will keep arguing in circles!

 

[KPM]

Any traditional arts that do alive training. Judo. Sumo. Boxing. Wrestling. Fighting looks like training.

Arts that dont. Start to stray away from their fighting appearence.

Sorry more accurately where their centerpoint is alive training. So the martial art looks like the sparring because that is the martial art.

Exactly! I have stated multiple times on this thread ..."fight the way you train and train the way you fight!" Yet some of the very people that have been arguing against my points just agreed with you! Go figure!

 

[Nobody Important]

Most everything I wrote you've cherry picked. I've attempted to explain why I feel that Wing Chun form is abandoned in sparring or fighting, you've deflected, dismissed or taken out of context. I've explained my position at length. Maybe you should ask yourself why it's so. You obviously want to argue my thoughts instead of examining your own questions.

----Oh now come on! I've gave my reasons for why good Wing Chun should stay good Wing Chun even when sparring and your responses have essentially been "but it doesn't!!!" You've deflected and dismissed what I have had to say in every post. I have been making the point that good Wing Chun structure and mechanics shouldn't be abandoned, and don't HAVE to be abandoned under pressure. I've even provided video showing people maintaining their Wing Chun structure under pressure. My question has been....why has it become acceptable by some to abandon good Wing Chun structure and mechanics in sparring? What has been your response? Essentially it has been...."because it happens!" So who is deflecting here? I've been keeping this on friendly terms because this is just a discussion to get people to think a bit. So why are you going and getting nasty about things???



I study what ever is useful to me, I care little for art. If your main reason isn't for fighting purposes, why do you care about it? The only way to insure that you can use an art exclusively is to pressure test often!

---Very true! And what is your conclusion when the basic structure and mechanics of your art break down under pressure???



Efficiency or looking for that magical belief in being able to effectively use Wing Chun with as little effort as possible. What do you care if others look like sloppy kick boxers when sparring, are they you?

---They can look like sloppy kickboxers all they want! Again, my position has simply been to ask the questions...why has it become so acceptable by some to abandon good Wing Chun when sparring? Why do some have a lower standard for Wing Chun in sparring compared to Wing Chun in training? Why do people get all offended when you point out to them that their Wing Chun has broken down and disappeared when they spar? Why do people think that Wing Chun in sparring shouldn't actually LOOK like Wing Chun? Why does it NOT seem like common sense to assert that Wing Chun has a certain structure and mechanics for sending and receiving force. This is trained in the forms and drills. They are there for a reason. Why do you think it is perfectly acceptable to toss all that out the window when sparring? Why do you think that this is a "magical belief"? I think those are pretty straight-forward questions. But based on your last few responses, it seems my points may be hitting a little too close to home! Have you lost all faith in YOUR WIng Chun?? Why are you defending the "sloppy kickboxers" that call what they do "Wing Chun"?




I don't think Wing Chun has a real strong stand up game,

---I guess that's my answer then. You seem to be taking offense at my points and position because you HAVE lost faith in your Wing Chun as a fighting art. But there's nothing wrong with that! However, maybe you feel like you have been wasting your time training Wing Chun rather than something more "kickboxing-like"? My apologies if what I have been saying has touched a nerve in that regard. But its never too late to learn something new! Personally, I have recently started studying Pentjak Silat Bukti Negara and am really enjoying it!



Yes #4 am I disbarred now? I'm not allowed to speak out against the art. I like Wing Chun, but I'm not a fervent believer in it being the best art in existence. It has flaws IMO.

----I agree with that part! To some extent I have been playing the "devil's advocate" here. But it also points out a big hypocrisy in Wing Chun circles for those guys that talk up their chun and then abandon it under pressure. All you have needed to say in these various exchanges here is that you DON'T think "classical" Wing Chun works well in sparring/fighting in today's environment. That is a perfectly valid opinion and you could come up with many good points to support that opinion!




Really!!?? Because not so long ago you threw a tantrum stating you couldn't tell it apart from MMA

---I said that I couldn't tell some of the MMA bouts that his guys were in apart from standard MMA. I still can't at times! I still think that for the most part they are doing more MMA than Wing Chun when they get in the ring.




I never stated to abandon them completely, I stated at times deviation is needed, even required.

----We have both said that. I said there is enough flexibility within Wing Chun that it doesn't have to be "deviated" to the point that it no longer resembles Wing Chun. If you believe that is untrue, that simply say so. Otherwise it seems we will keep arguing in circles!

Good lord man, I have stated why I think it breaks down. I'm not trying to be nasty, go back over my overly lengthy posts stating my belief why it does break down when sparring. You've consistently argued against why I believe it does.

Solo practice, even partner practice is generally choreographed, way different approach than live & spontaneous application.

I haven't given up Wing Chun & You haven't struck a nerve. I just personally don't believe Wing Chun is a stand alone method. I've stated before & I'll state again I believe Wing Chun is an art meant to augment & elevate a more gross motor skill method like Long Fist or Boxing. I believe it to be an art of refinement, an art of ideal approach.

When it comes to realistic fight application Wing Chun training is backwards. It starts with fundamentals that are predominantly fine motor movement and working up to gross motor movement. There is also a great deal of emphasis on forms that don't really contain practical body movement. Exactly opposite of loose technique arts like Wrestling & Boxing.

It's very hard to convince people to make small position adjustments & bridge when someone is trying to rip their head off, when their natural instinct is to duck, dodge or run away.

It's best to work from big movements to small movements. A big movement can be refined to become small. It's very difficult to enlarge a small movement effectively. Wing Chun is designed small to big (Siu Lim Tau to Biu Jee) where as the big isn't even that big. Even the legends state that Wing Chun is an advanced art, one refined from others. This is why I believe it to be an art of augmentation and refinement.

Why do many Wing Chun practitioners revert to sloppy kickboxing? IMO , because it is the first art that they learned. Many Tai Chi practitioners suffer from the same dilemma. Arts of refinement shouldn't be first arts learned.