What does wing chun look like?

[chisauking]

I teach WC as an attachment art. Meaning we need to be in bridge contact for WC tools to be used. Until than it will resemble MMA. I use slight pock sau's to keep the Jab, Cross out and cover like a boxer for the hooks and high kicks. Only when I bridge and make contact and attach to the opponent does WC come in. You need to stay alive on the outside until you can bridge. Through sparring you will find that attempting to stop hooks with Tan Da or Woo Da or what ever is a guessing game that I don't play. I cover and sometimes use the cover as an elbow attack.

Even beginners should spar. What WC techniques we trained at the beginning of class will be the focus in sparring at the end of class.

I train BJJ and we do it the same way. No need to re-invent the wheel, go with what works to build competent fighters.

Once contact is made, wing chun 'tools' still should be visable, right?

I don't think anyone will disagree with you that people should spar, but the BIG question is, what constitutes as sparring. Quite a few people see sparring as the western boxing type of exchange, and some even veiw sparring as fighting (I kid you not, this is the honest truth)

 

[chisauking]

Wushguy sez: naturally some motions could still be recognized and felt as wing chun, so if one is doing wing chun right, people will be able to recognize and feel it, even if one tries to hide it.

csk: Wing chun 'tools' can be quite pronouced at low intensiity & speed, in contact, but it's application in real time that's difficult.

If other martial artist saw someone practising the SLT, they would recognise it as wing chun, but that doesn't mean the practitioner could appy it, or apply it in a way that could be recognisable as wing chun when in application.

 

[qwksilver61]

Probably really messy..and not fairy tail book perfect when in a real fight...
at least you can try to get close...and stay centered!

 

[dosk3n]

Well I have added the 2nd video to my youtube channel and where the 1st one looked a lot like WC the 2nd one didnt look like it so much. It is me that is sparring in the video and we are at full speed but when it comes to this I keep going to the basics and just pak and punch. There are a few tan saus in there and bongsau but the tan isnt rotating to a full "begging" position and the bong isnt invisible and moving to another routine. I do use huen and stick when sparring but there is still somthing missing.

I have only been doing WC for 11 months and this is only my 4th or 5th attempt at sparring so by no means am I experienced so I just feel I do not have the positions ingrained in muscle memory yet.

But like said previously and I will agree, I know the answer to this. The magic bullet of the 3 P's: Practice, Practice and Practice.

I dont mind showing you the video as I actually suggest everyone should record themselfs as it helps point out alot of mistakes that you may have never noticed and in this one there is a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/afswingchun (Dean and Paul)

I have posted the other video on the forums before which I think is more WC looking but they have been doing it for a lot longer.

Dean.

 

[Poor Uke]

What is a Bullshido Gong sau if you don't mind me asking?

Some kind of challenge fight??

Bullshido is an internet forum that attempts (rightly or wrongly) to shift through the massive amount of BS peddled as martial arts.

Their main aim is fraud investiagtions in martial arts, but members often meet up either to train or spar with each other. Sometimes a discussion on line gets heated and two members will challenge each other (Gong Sau). Rules are drawn up and agreed on and the fight is arranged with the safety of both challengers ensured.

The members in this case were Sirc and Dr Tzun Tzu:

See if you can spot the one who has trained _ing _un?

 

[zepedawingchun]

http://www.youtube.com/afswingchun (Dean and Paul)

I have posted the other video on the forums before which I think is more WC looking but they have been doing it for a lot longer.

Dean.

In my experience, when you're sparring, if you're using Wing Chun hand positions and concepts, and if you're very experienced, it looks like Wing Chun, most of the time. But in a real fighting situation, it doesn't look like Wing Chun at all (again, if you are a very experienced Wing Chun practitioner). The reasons, IMO, is because when sparring, you are not totally into stopping and destroying your opponent, your intent is not to maim or severely damage you opponent. You're trying to conserve strength and energy for a greater length of time, so your attacks and defenses are more structured with your responses, you have more time to think and control your movements. So you tend to try to use certain hand position, you make a tan da work or use a bong sao to redirect a punch. And also you expect that the sparring situation is not something you will receive any major injury from or that it becomes a physically life altering event.

However, when in a fight, or maybe a life or death altercaton, you're going for broke with your defense and attack, intent on stopping your attacker within a matter of seconds. Adrenaline is running wild, your heart rate is up, you're a bit scared. You're not thinking so much because it's for real, everything is happening so fast, and you don't have time to think. You are just worried of what you're attackers next move will be. And so since your mind is out of the equation, your body does what it's been training. The situations are two totally different mind sets, in the energy you expend and intent. Your responses may not look like Wing Chun, even though your responses are. They happen quickly and without thought to what hand positions you're using, at least that is what I have found in my experience.

So what does Wing Chun look like? In my opinion, it looks exactly how you use it. And that depends on the sitution.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wing chun is such a difficult art to apply in real time, most people seem to form the opinion that wing chun doesn't look like wing chun in action.

It looks like this:

Oh wait, that's Wang Chung. That's very different. Nevermind.

 

[geezer]

What does Wing Chun look like? Pretty good, considering her age!


Sorry. I just cant pass up a really stupid one-liner. But seriously folks... In a fighting situation Wing Chun won't look as defined, perfect and traditional as in the kwoon. The movements will be much more abbreviated and the "slop factor" will be off the scale. That's the nature of a fight. What will come through (or should come through) at the very least is the stance, the hand positioning, aggressive forward pressure, centerline attacks, and chain-punching. A person can be holding his hands in fists all the time and still execute abbreviated deflections, wedging, and control the centerline, without ever making a classical tan sau, fook sau, gaun-sau and so forth. They may slip and stumble, let their stance get too wide, and their movements may get too big and too tense, but they shouldn't be throwing haymakers or using an MMA/boxing approach. IMHO, it will probably look rough, but it should still be rough WC.

 

[hunt1]

There is a difference between dead and alive wing chun. Most folks seem to look at dead wing chun and think thats what they should be seeing in a fight.

For example the man sau prefight position. That is a pose. it is dead. There is a saying that bong sau never stays. Kind of a sad saying. Nothing ever stays in a fight. Everthing changes all the time. To see the wing chun look to a constantly changing center line facing. Constant change of angles. Two hands doing two different things at the same time all the time once the bridge is made. look at the footwork. Do you see circle steps triangle steps shifting steps. Is the body rising and lowering. The hand techniques themselves are the least important thing. Look for covering while moving.
Do you see pushing and pulling?

Seer these things and you see the wing chun. looking for a tan lan etc. You shouldn't see much of them because the hands should be changing not posing.

 

[mook jong man]

There is a difference between dead and alive wing chun. Most folks seem to look at dead wing chun and think thats what they should be seeing in a fight.

For example the man sau prefight position. That is a pose. it is dead. .

Can you explain what you mean here , are you saying that you shouldn't have a guard up.
It might be a dead pose but it does provide a very serious barrier to somebody trying to punch your face in assuming you've got it at the right height.

One of the concepts behind the centre line guard is that it can force the attacker to try and punch around your guard thus making him take a longer route while you control the centre , which also gives you more time to react.

Your hands might not be moving around while your in your guard but they're not dead you should still be trying to project forward force (springy force) through your arms even when your not in contact yet , at least that was the way we were taught.

 

[bully]

I agree with MJM here, can you explain more Hunt??

Whilst I assume Man sau is Wu sau and some kind of other hand out, maybe tan, doesnt matter really.

You would be a fool to get involved in anything without your hands up.

Thats the way I was taught too, doesnt matter what shape my hands are in, just as long as they are in front of me protecting me.

On another point of how Wing Chun should look....

Whilst training with Kevin Chan we were doing scenario drills, ie he attacks me with whatever and I react. My arms were by my side (this maybe what you mean Hunt??).

Kevin explained that it doesnt matter what I stop the kick/punch with, just that I stop it and can work off it.
A few times, well quite a few times actually I threw out a, well lets just say it wasnt Wing Chun. Maybe it was a Bull sau:ultracool

He said carry on, dont stop, just keep working off the "block" with Wing chun.

In some scenarios you wont have time to perform the perfect Tan/swivel/punch reaction that we would all love to do every time and knock the guy clean out, then buff our nails and take applause from the watching crowd of girls who would then buy you drinks all night and hang off your every word ;-)

My old Sifu also mentioned to us that a natural defensive block with your arms out in front of you actually looks very similar to a bong/wu combo, ie it wouldnt take much to turn it into that. I dont know if you guys can visualise what I mean without a piccy. I am mindful of this if anything turns dodgy.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. I have decided to trademark Bull sau too, it means "rubbish hand". I am pretty good at them. You could add it into your next conversation with your WC mate. "yeah I was doing chi sau and sifu punch me in the chest, my own fault as I dropped into a Bull sau and he went straight through"

Cheers

Bully

 

[geezer]

... I have decided to trademark Bull sau too, it means "rubbish hand"...

Hey, forget the trademark. I use that technique too!

 

[mook jong man]

Whilst training with Kevin Chan we were doing scenario drills, ie he attacks me with whatever and I react. My arms were by my side (this maybe what you mean Hunt??).

If he meant it that way then I would have to agree with him there , I certainly advocate doing that type of training that you did with Sifu Chan .

I do it with my students too , because you don't walk around all day with your guard up do you.

But if you have any inkling that something is going to kick off then you want to get your hands up ready to intercept anything that comes in.

One drill that we do is the Wing Chun guy has his hands down by his side and his partner starts off directly at the side of him and throws any type of hand strike he wants to.

The partner keeps walking around the defender in a semi circle firing of random punches as he goes until he gets to the other side then he goes back the other way.

The defender must stay facing the front until he intercepts the strikes and then he can face the partner and counter attack , then he goes back to facing the front and the drill continues.

The aim of the exercise is to get the student to respond by reflex from a natural position to surprise attacks coming in at weird angles not just nice front on ones like we are used to.
Like you said its not always perfect , and a lot of improvisation happens .

Kevin explained that it doesnt matter what I stop the kick/punch with, just that I stop it and can work off it.
He said carry on, dont stop, just keep working off the "block" with Wing chun.

Can't fault that logic.

My old Sifu also mentioned to us that a natural defensive block with your arms out in front of you actually looks very similar to a bong/wu combo, ie it wouldnt take much to turn it into that. I dont know if you guys can visualise what I mean without a piccy. I am mindful of this if anything turns dodgy.

I think your talking about the natural flinch response here , and it does look very similar to a Bong / Wu combo or what we call Seung Bong.

 

[chisauking]

In any physical endeavor you can think of, the practice will resemble the ‘doing’. From the swing of a golf club, the poke of a snooker cue, the motion of the Thai elbows, the loci of the western boxing jabs, etc., etc., one can see the movement & action resembles the practice.

It’s ONLY in wing chun when people say the practice doesn’t resemble the doing. If you believe this, then it can only be down to 2 possible reasons.

1. Wing chun is a very difficult style to apply.
2. Wing chun doesn’t work – at least not in the way we train it.

If you believe in the former reason, then one must question our training and try to bring out the functional aspects of our style.
If you believe in the later, then it’s best to stop wing chun altogether, or train in a manner in which you believe wing chun should look like in action, in order to make it functional. For example, if you think wing chun looks like kick boxing in application, then it would be best to train kick boxing right from the onset. Or, if you think judo would look like swimming in application, then it would be better to practice swimming on the onset.

Personally, I believe wing chun is extremely difficult to apply in real time. It’s equivalent to the triple somersault with a half twist in gymnastics. Millions of people practice gymnastics, but only a handful of gymnast can perform the most difficult of actions. Further more, when people change the objective of a style, putting it in an environment and restriction which it was never meant to be used, then the ‘dynamics’ of the method must also change. Put the best badminton player in a tennis game, and the badminton player HAS to change his dynamics in order to compete successfully in his new objective or new game. His methods would also have to change, because the tools required is different to those of badminton. This concept is no different in wing chun. Change the objective, rules, environment, and the dynamics & tools MUST also change.

Next time you record yourself applying wing chun, or put a clip out on utube, have a look to see if it resembles what you practice. It reveals much about one's training & wing chun level.

 

[Vajramusti]

Depends on who is doing it and who is looking!

 

[l_uk3y]

Hmm. It looks very different to me depending on the student.

Some clips you see of sparring on the net looks exactly like what you would expect. Solid base, controlling the centre, creating an opening and then attacking it.

Others look like people who have padded up and only know how to roll punch and charge forwards. In what appears to be cover your face and keep punching until someone runs out of breath.

I believe there are as many different ways Wing Chun can look as there are students, however you can usually pick the true level of training the student has (not being measured in years) by the way they spar/fight.

 

[chisauking]

Hmm. It looks very different to me depending on the student.

Some clips you see of sparring on the net looks exactly like what you would expect. Solid base, controlling the centre, creating an opening and then attacking it.

Others look like people who have padded up and only know how to roll punch and charge forwards. In what appears to be cover your face and keep punching until someone runs out of breath.

I believe there are as many different ways Wing Chun can look as there are students, however you can usually pick the true level of training the student has (not being measured in years) by the way they spar/fight.

Very good points, lucky!

 

[KamonGuy2]

I do a lot of scenario training, trying to get students aware that they will not always be in an ideal position to form a good defense. Most recently we sat in chairs and were attacked randomly by other students

Your wing chun will often be messy and have bad structure to start with (known as flinch reaction). It is what you do afterwards!!

Ive been punched in the back before, kicked randomly from the side, and grabbed unexpectedly. You cant train your body to form perfect moves everytime or you will end up turning into a nutter and expecting attack all the time!!

At Red level gradings, students are given a basic attack (straight punch or hook) and they have to put a reaction up before 'moulding' into the opponent. Its a great drill and gets you appreciating how to recover in fights

 

[geezer]

As for what Wing Chun looks like... I just had a sort of random thought in response to some youtube clips I was watching. Some martial arts (including some Wing Chun) are performed very crisply, with sharp, clearly defined movements, punctuated by momentary pauses (or "poses") almost like a choreographed performance in a martial arts movie. It looks impressive, but it's not at all how I want my 'chun to look. My goal is to become more fluid and adaptable, with my movements forming in response to my opponent's techniques, molding around his limbs and snapping forward to strike whatever targets are presented... never following a choreographed pattern. Unfortunately, some beginning students are much more impressed by the sharp, tense, and exaggerated "movie" type techniques. Anybody else have a similar experience?

 

[chisauking]

Rehearsed clips will always look good, but it's what one can do spontaneously & in a 'live' environment that's a real indication of skills.

If one has real skills, the hands will do the talking. We don't need to try and 'impress' people with cheap tricks & mannequine partners.