Wing Chun Sparring
- Thread starter KPM
- Start date
Jake104
Black Belt
Yes... exactly!
Problem with Wing Chun is, someone most likely lied to them in the beginning, giving them the idea that they can block and control an opponent and not get hit. Like in chi sao.. it's a shame
Wing Chun Auckland
Green Belt
I wonder what sparring would look like with no gloves. Lets imagine that we could spar with no gloves and maybe only be wearing some headgear or something. And lets put aside risk of injury etc. for a moment. What would sparring look like then. I would think there would be a bit more hand, limb controlling or arm grabbing involved. That's just what I imagine.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Gee if only they made 4 ounce gloves that you could spar in. But also let you grab people.
Actually the most interesting dynamic for that is cage muay thai. Where about the only change is big gloves to small ones.
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
One of the big problems with using complex arts like Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Bak Siu Lam etc. and having it look like that art when fighting is the sheer volume of techniques. The reason that methods like Boxing, Kick Boxing & Wrestling are immediately recognizable is because of a small core of techniques emphasized. This core covers a wide base of offensive & defensive skills from which combinations & variations are extrapolated. While this is also true of TCMA like Wing Chun & Hung Gar, unlike Boxing, Kick Boxing & Wrestling, TCMA does not focus on one aspect of fighting, it tries to cover all, punching, kicking, throwing & grappling. This actually becomes the problem. If you try to address each method in your training it will look like MMA. If you only focus on striking, naturally you will adapt a simpler boxing approach. Your sparring will conform to the methods you adhere to. If Wing Chun is truly a conceptual art the frame work (stance & posture) has to be allowed to conform in a manner that is most economical to the method employed. Doing this changes its appearance.
Most people say that Wing Chun is a boxing method. This may be accurate, but, where does that leave Chi Sau. Chi Sau is similar to hand fighting in grappling. Most fail in sparring when trying to incorporate Chi Sau with the boxing, not because it isn't an effective element of Wing Chun but because they are trying to force a grappling method into the structure of a boxing method. You also have the added element of blocking or parrying, something not used to a great degree in Boxing or Kick Boxing & nearly extinct in grappling. A boxer punches, a kicker kicks, a grappler wrestles. When all 3 are combined the most economical manner of deployment looks like any MMA method.
Also don't forget that most Wing Chun practitioners spar against other Wing Chun practitioners, this makes it easier to maintain structure, because their structure is the same. When going against a Wrestler or Boxer etc. It's harder to maintain structure because the opponents dynamics are vastly different. Here you can easily run into problems, because if you are attempting to defend against a wrestler using boxing posture he has the advantage of breaking your structure.
The methodologies of Boxing, Kicking, Grappling & Throwing are different & require different structure to be most economical & efficient. To try & force one method into the framework of another is to invite disaster.
Too often Wing Chun people adhere too dogmatically to structure as learned in the forms, & do not allow for deviation when trying to apply something other than a strike. If the numerous hand positions of Wing Chun can have a great deal of variation & freedom of interpretation, why can't the body? Stance, position & structure need to have flexibility in use & interpretation as well if one is to successfully apply all modes of fighting. When this happens, it no longer looks like the package it came out of.
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Not always.. when you train forms and drills there is no foward intent coming at you. Don't you think that might change things?
----Of course it will change things! But should it change things to the point that your Wing Chun is no longer recognizable? If so, then there is something wrong with your training!!!!! Will it change things to the point that you start doing something that looks like kickboxing??
----Of course it will change things! But should it change things to the point that your Wing Chun is no longer recognizable? If so, then there is something wrong with your training!!!!! Will it change things to the point that you start doing something that looks like kickboxing??
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You want me to name names? Just do a search for anything Wing Chun sparring. You'll find plenty of examples. Now some will still be recognizable as Wing Chun. But the Wing Chun looks like crap. People get all offended when you point that out and they say "well, Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when you have to really use it!" To which I say...."why not????" Why do we have such a lower standard for Wing Chun performance when sparring as compared to when doing forms, Chi Sau, or drills? Shouldn't sparring be a platform to tease out where we start losing our Wing Chun and then work on that? Shouldn't the ideal in sparring be to work towards good Wing Chun technique? Again....are people training to be good at Wing Chun, or good at sparring?
One of the big problems with using complex arts like Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Bak Siu Lam etc. and having it look like that art when fighting is the sheer volume of techniques. The reason that methods like Boxing, Kick Boxing & Wrestling are immediately recognizable is because of a small core of techniques emphasized.
---Well, that's a pretty simple fix. People can easily set the rules for their sparring session so that only strikes are used. That way they can really work on using Wing Chun-specific strikes and defenses. Once again....are people training to be good at Wing Chun, or to be good at sparring???
. Your sparring will conform to the methods you adhere to. If Wing Chun is truly a conceptual art the frame work (stance & posture) has to be allowed to conform in a manner that is most economical to the method employed. Doing this changes its appearance.
---But should it change its appearance to the point that it looks more like kickboxing than Wing Chun? The problem here is with the idea of "conforming." Why do so many people feel the need to conform to a kickboxing framework when sparring? I've said multiple times that I wouldn't expect "picture perfect" Wing Chun when under pressure. But shouldn't that be the goal to strive for? When someone's essential frame work (stance & posture) radically changes when they spar, you don't see that as a problem with their training? "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Otherwise you are being very uneconomical.
A boxer punches, a kicker kicks, a grappler wrestles. When all 3 are combined the most economical manner of deployment looks like any MMA method.
---I disagree. A boxer punches in a certain way that may be different from how we are taught to punch in Wing Chun. A kickboxer kicks in a different way than what we are taught in Wing Chun. So if a Wing Chun guy starts throwing wide loopy punches and high roundhouse kicks to the head when sparring, is he still doing Wing Chun??
Also don't forget that most Wing Chun practitioners spar against other Wing Chun practitioners, this makes it easier to maintain structure, because their structure is the same. When going against a Wrestler or Boxer etc. It's harder to maintain structure because the opponents dynamics are vastly different.
---Here is another pretty damning statement in regards to "classical Wing Chun." You seem to be saying that a Wing Chun guy is automatically going to be forced to "fight the other guy's fight". He is automatically going to be forced to abandon all his good Wing Chun training and "conform" to what the other guy is doing?
Too often Wing Chun people adhere too dogmatically to structure as learned in the forms, & do not allow for deviation when trying to apply something other than a strike.
---I'm not saying to adhere to things dogmatically or to not be willing to deviate when a situation demands. But those forms and drills have a purpose. They provide a standard. They show us how the system is designed to work. So why has it become so acceptable to simple abandon all that when sparring?? Wong Shun Leung did boxing before Wing Chun. But I have seen Gor Sau footage of him in action and he certainly didn't abandon his Wing Chun and start moving around like a kickboxer! Does anyone believe that in the fights Ip Man had he abandoned good Wing Chun structure and threw Jabs, Crosses, and high kicks???
If the numerous hand positions of Wing Chun can have a great deal of variation & freedom of interpretation, why can't the body? Stance, position & structure need to have flexibility in use & interpretation as well if one is to successfully apply all modes of fighting.
---The body structure, stance and position are what define the essential core biomechanics. They dictate how you move and how you send and receive force. If you abandon all of that, how can one be said to still be doing Wing Chun? Again....are people training Wing Chun? Or are they training to be good at sparring????
---Wing Chun does not have actual ground-fighting/wrestling techniques. So I see no problem at all in transitioning from Wing Chun directly into wrestling or BJJ in a fight. That is not what I have been talking about in this thread.
---Well, that's a pretty simple fix. People can easily set the rules for their sparring session so that only strikes are used. That way they can really work on using Wing Chun-specific strikes and defenses. Once again....are people training to be good at Wing Chun, or to be good at sparring???
. Your sparring will conform to the methods you adhere to. If Wing Chun is truly a conceptual art the frame work (stance & posture) has to be allowed to conform in a manner that is most economical to the method employed. Doing this changes its appearance.
---But should it change its appearance to the point that it looks more like kickboxing than Wing Chun? The problem here is with the idea of "conforming." Why do so many people feel the need to conform to a kickboxing framework when sparring? I've said multiple times that I wouldn't expect "picture perfect" Wing Chun when under pressure. But shouldn't that be the goal to strive for? When someone's essential frame work (stance & posture) radically changes when they spar, you don't see that as a problem with their training? "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Otherwise you are being very uneconomical.
A boxer punches, a kicker kicks, a grappler wrestles. When all 3 are combined the most economical manner of deployment looks like any MMA method.
---I disagree. A boxer punches in a certain way that may be different from how we are taught to punch in Wing Chun. A kickboxer kicks in a different way than what we are taught in Wing Chun. So if a Wing Chun guy starts throwing wide loopy punches and high roundhouse kicks to the head when sparring, is he still doing Wing Chun??
Also don't forget that most Wing Chun practitioners spar against other Wing Chun practitioners, this makes it easier to maintain structure, because their structure is the same. When going against a Wrestler or Boxer etc. It's harder to maintain structure because the opponents dynamics are vastly different.
---Here is another pretty damning statement in regards to "classical Wing Chun." You seem to be saying that a Wing Chun guy is automatically going to be forced to "fight the other guy's fight". He is automatically going to be forced to abandon all his good Wing Chun training and "conform" to what the other guy is doing?
Too often Wing Chun people adhere too dogmatically to structure as learned in the forms, & do not allow for deviation when trying to apply something other than a strike.
---I'm not saying to adhere to things dogmatically or to not be willing to deviate when a situation demands. But those forms and drills have a purpose. They provide a standard. They show us how the system is designed to work. So why has it become so acceptable to simple abandon all that when sparring?? Wong Shun Leung did boxing before Wing Chun. But I have seen Gor Sau footage of him in action and he certainly didn't abandon his Wing Chun and start moving around like a kickboxer! Does anyone believe that in the fights Ip Man had he abandoned good Wing Chun structure and threw Jabs, Crosses, and high kicks???
If the numerous hand positions of Wing Chun can have a great deal of variation & freedom of interpretation, why can't the body? Stance, position & structure need to have flexibility in use & interpretation as well if one is to successfully apply all modes of fighting.
---The body structure, stance and position are what define the essential core biomechanics. They dictate how you move and how you send and receive force. If you abandon all of that, how can one be said to still be doing Wing Chun? Again....are people training Wing Chun? Or are they training to be good at sparring????
---Wing Chun does not have actual ground-fighting/wrestling techniques. So I see no problem at all in transitioning from Wing Chun directly into wrestling or BJJ in a fight. That is not what I have been talking about in this thread.
Huh? That made no sense in the context of what I wrote. Do you think Muhummed Ali in training looked vastly different from Muhummed Ali in a fight? When Muhummed Ali worked the heavy bag, did he use different punching mechanics and body methods than he did in a fight? When Muhummed Ali worked the focus pads with his coach, did he use different punching methods, footwork and defenses as compared to what he did in a fight???
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
---Well, that's a pretty simple fix. People can easily set the rules for their sparring session so that only strikes are used. That way they can really work on using Wing Chun-specific strikes and defenses. Once again....are people training to be good at Wing Chun, or to be good at sparring???
True, they can and should IMO, but they will still need to train this against other styles. If Wing Chun is a method of combat, what’s the difference? Do you want form or function? Sometimes the perception of proper form isn’t compatible with real world function.
---But should it change its appearance to the point that it looks more like kickboxing than Wing Chun? The problem here is with the idea of "conforming." Why do so many people feel the need to conform to a kickboxing framework when sparring? I've said multiple times that I wouldn't expect "picture perfect" Wing Chun when under pressure. But shouldn't that be the goal to strive for? When someone's essential frame work (stance & posture) radically changes when they spar, you don't see that as a problem with their training? "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Otherwise you are being very uneconomical.
Inability to conform or adapt is a sign of a dead method. Wing Chun offers a plethora of methods neatly packed into box, problem is, not all of Wing Chun’s solutions are as economical or ideal for certain situations. Because of this, adaptation is needed. “When someone's essential frame work (stance & posture) radically changes when they spar, you don't see that as a problem with their training? "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Otherwise you are being very uneconomical”. You just answered your own question. We don’t all have the same preferences, reactions or inclinations when it comes to fighting. More than just technique and posture are involved, psychological factors play a HUGE part into reaction.
--I disagree. A boxer punches in a certain way that may be different from how we are taught to punch in Wing Chun. A kickboxer kicks in a different way than what we are taught in Wing Chun. So if a Wing Chun guy starts throwing wide loopy punches and high roundhouse kicks to the head when sparring, is he still doing Wing Chun??
You’re only looking at this from one side. Wing Chun has uppercuts, hook punches, straight punches, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, crescent kick etc. Do you believe that the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques as the most powerful and economical manner of doing them? You have to remember that when fighting you are moving rapidly, balance, posture, momentum, power is all affected. How one recovers from mishaps has to be taken into consideration. Many of the postures in Wing Chun can be somewhat un-natural and uncomfortable, this causes people to be distracted, so they seek a more natural feeling position. Lastly, let’s not forget how the body is affected by stress in a confrontation. Wing Chun is predominately fine motor skill (which requires a great deal of concentration & control to maintain), the higher the stress the more we lean to gross motor movement.
--Here is another pretty damning statement in regards to "classical Wing Chun." You seem to be saying that a Wing Chun guy is automatically going to be forced to "fight the other guy's fight". He is automatically going to be forced to abandon all his good Wing Chun training and "conform" to what the other guy is doing?
This is not what I’m saying, per say, but let’s look at this realistically. Find any footage of a real knockdown, drag out fight involving any TCMA or Karate. What’s it look like? 99% of the time it looks like sloppy kickboxing and specific style cannot be determined. Arts like Boxing, Wrestling and even Kick Boxing (Muay Thai / Sanda) are recognizable because they are limited in rules and techniques used. If you limit Wing Chun to one aspect, what would it look like? It would probably like recognizable as Wing Chun, but being limited in technique could it still be called Wing Chun?
---I'm not saying to adhere to things dogmatically or to not be willing to deviate when a situation demands. But those forms and drills have a purpose. They provide a standard. They show us how the system is designed to work. So why has it become so acceptable to simple abandon all that when sparring?? Wong Shun Leung did boxing before Wing Chun. But I have seen Gor Sau footage of him in action and he certainly didn't abandon his Wing Chun and start moving around like a kickboxer! Does anyone believe that in the fights Ip Man had he abandoned good Wing Chun structure and threw Jabs, Crosses, and high kicks???
You can’t compare exceptions to a rule of standard. As far as Yip Man goes, there is no fight footage of him, so it can’t be determined. I have seen plenty of footage from many TCMA masters, more often than not it looks like Sanda with no discernable style making itself apparent. Outside of choreographed demos and light sparring, real fighting doesn’t look good most of the time. It often tends to look like MMA unless it’s a specific sport method with clearly defined rules. As far as jabs, crosses and high kicks, see above.
---The body structure, stance and position are what define the essential core biomechanics. They dictate how you move and how you send and receive force. If you abandon all of that, how can one be said to still be doing Wing Chun? Again....are people training Wing Chun? Or are they training to be good at sparring????
Maybe they need re-evaluated. Personal combat has evolved to encompass a variety of ranges and techniques. Most TCMA styles don’t emphasize grappling. This is one aspect that many, in days gone by, didn’t have to deal with. You have to remember that the Chinese approached fighting differently than did Westerners did in some aspects. The Chinese like to pack things into neat bundles that don’t necessarily fit as well as they think. Lots of ambiguity in theory and application of movement. Western ideology towards fisticuffs / wrestling had simple loose movements and straight forward application. One method can take years to understand, master and apply in a practical manner. The other is usable nearly from the start because it isn’t as constrained by theory or ambiguous application.
When a society doesn’t wrestle on the ground, they don’t have any real defense for it. Shuai Jiao, for the most part doesn’t allow for grabbing the legs, the defense against throws or takedowns is approached differently. Also in traditional Chinese grappling strikes aren’t allowed. More often than not, some of these rules were adhered to in challenge “No-Holds-Barred” matches, because they never emphasized them to begin with. What once could be done using a specific method has changed. This is due to combing arts that focus specifically on different ways of fighting. More often than not if a master studied more than one art, is was just a different interpretation of a punch & kick method that he already knew with a different theory and approach. Only the ones that combined a more even mix of basic Punch, Kick, Throw & Grapple went on to gain any notoriety in documented fighting, not just oral legends coming from their students.
What works for one person may not for another. Boxing can be identified as boxing because of the limited number of techniques, however, no two boxers are the same. Some boxing styles are discernibly different. TCMA has a vast arsenal of techniques, especially Wing Chun, which has several variations of very similar movements. This becomes confusing and can become downright dangerous when attempting to defend yourself. When you have a dozen ways to defend against a straight punch, your mind can't think quick enough to react accordingly. Wing Chun, and traditional arts in general, have become so technique heavy that they have become weighed down and ineffective to a great degree.
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Jake104
Black Belt
IMO you are kind of all over the place with this thread.. It seems as if you're complaining about WC when it doesn't work and looks like crappy kick boxing. Which I think agree with...But then on the other hand I feel like you are passive aggressively jabbing those of us who do train like we fight with comments like, -those who do whatever they want and call it Wing Chun, when it's not??..I'm just paraphrasing there, cause I really don't feel like searching through all your post for a direct quote.
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Danny T
Senior Master
Curious to know your thoughts as to how the different weight distributions, striking movements, footwork, body structures relate from the different parts of the 'system'. I think most look at the empty hand portions as inter-relating with each empty hand form building upon the previous. But what of the weapons forms and drills where there are some substantial differences? Are these differences only to be utilized with or against weapons? Or do they also inter-relate with the empty hands?
Are they stand along or are they in addition to what is developed with the empty hand forms and drills?
I am a strong proponent that they are all inter-related and that the footwork, body structures, and striking movements/structures from weapons can be and are to be utilized within the empty hand aspects. This avails the practitioner with much more possibilities for fighting/sparring. It will also allow for what appears to be different presentations of a practitioner's structure and strikes vs what one sees within basic form and drills.
Are they stand along or are they in addition to what is developed with the empty hand forms and drills?
I am a strong proponent that they are all inter-related and that the footwork, body structures, and striking movements/structures from weapons can be and are to be utilized within the empty hand aspects. This avails the practitioner with much more possibilities for fighting/sparring. It will also allow for what appears to be different presentations of a practitioner's structure and strikes vs what one sees within basic form and drills.
This is my belief as well, weapon forms have a lot to teach us even for unarmed combat.
Sure! But I have yet to see anyone throw a wide hook punch in their knife form or a roundhouse kick in their pole form!
True, they can and should IMO, but they will still need to train this against other styles. If Wing Chun is a method of combat, what’s the difference? Do you want form or function? Sometimes the perception of proper form isn’t compatible with real world function.
----So you don't think Wing Chun works as designed? If Wing Chun is a "method" of combat, shouldn't the Wing Chunner be using that method when engaged in combat and not using a kickboxing method???
Inability to conform or adapt is a sign of a dead method.
---Absolutely! But one should be able to conform and adapt within the context of their Wing Chun. Not abandon to the extent that it is no longer recognizable! Wing Chun is a flexible method. But it still has defined ways of doing things that make it "Wing Chun." Just as boxing has defined ways of doing things that make it "boxing", or Muay Thai, etc.
Wing Chun offers a plethora of methods neatly packed into box, problem is, not all of Wing Chun’s solutions are as economical or ideal for certain situations. Because of this, adaptation is needed.
---Wing Chun is "stand up" fighting method. Should it not work as designed when engaged in "stand up" sparring?
We don’t all have the same preferences, reactions or inclinations when it comes to fighting. More than just technique and posture are involved, psychological factors play a HUGE part into reaction.
----Do psychological factors completely change your biomechanical base of movement? If they do, then you need to really reevaluate your training!
. Do you believe that the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques as the most powerful and economical manner of doing them?
----For Wing Chun....Yes!!!!! If you aren't going to use the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques, then why are you bothering to study and train Wing Chun? Just train kickboxing!!!!
Many of the postures in Wing Chun can be somewhat un-natural and uncomfortable, this causes people to be distracted, so they seek a more natural feeling position.
---Another somewhat damning statement in regards to "classical" Wing Chun!
Lastly, let’s not forget how the body is affected by stress in a confrontation. Wing Chun is predominately fine motor skill (which requires a great deal of concentration & control to maintain), the higher the stress the more we lean to gross motor movement.
----Essential body mechanics is a gross motor skill. If its not, then there is something wrong with the person's training!
Find any footage of a real knockdown, drag out fight involving any TCMA or Karate. What’s it look like? 99% of the time it looks like sloppy kickboxing and specific style cannot be determined.
---Perhaps you are right! So then why are we bothering to train TCMA? Why are we not all studying kickboxing, MMA or something like JKD?
You can’t compare exceptions to a rule of standard.
----Ah! But see that's the question I have been essentially asking! Why is sparring so widely seen as an exception to the rules of standard Wing Chun????
As far as Yip Man goes, there is no fight footage of him, so it can’t be determined.
---Ok. But just how likely is it that he moved like a sloppy kickboxer when he had to fight??? Just how likely do you think it is that he completely abandoned his Wing Chun structure when he had to fight??? Let's be realistic here!
Maybe they need re-evaluated. Personal combat has evolved to encompass a variety of ranges and techniques.
---Maybe they do! Food for thought! Maybe Wing Chun needs an update and we should all abandon the "classical" methods of training it!
What works for one person may not for another. Boxing can be identified as boxing because of the limited number of techniques, however, no two boxers are the same. Some boxing styles are discernibly different.
---And yet they are all recognizable as "boxing"!
TCMA has a vast arsenal of techniques, especially Wing Chun, which has several variations of very similar movements. This becomes confusing and can become downright dangerous when attempting to defend yourself.
---Wing Chun has to be one of the simplest and most straight-forward of all the TCMA's. Its not that complicated. If you talk to the WSLVT guys, it all comes down to a straight punch. So I think I have to disagree with you again. I don't think that the problem I have been pointing out has anything to do with Wing Chun being "complicated."
----So you don't think Wing Chun works as designed? If Wing Chun is a "method" of combat, shouldn't the Wing Chunner be using that method when engaged in combat and not using a kickboxing method???
Inability to conform or adapt is a sign of a dead method.
---Absolutely! But one should be able to conform and adapt within the context of their Wing Chun. Not abandon to the extent that it is no longer recognizable! Wing Chun is a flexible method. But it still has defined ways of doing things that make it "Wing Chun." Just as boxing has defined ways of doing things that make it "boxing", or Muay Thai, etc.
Wing Chun offers a plethora of methods neatly packed into box, problem is, not all of Wing Chun’s solutions are as economical or ideal for certain situations. Because of this, adaptation is needed.
---Wing Chun is "stand up" fighting method. Should it not work as designed when engaged in "stand up" sparring?
We don’t all have the same preferences, reactions or inclinations when it comes to fighting. More than just technique and posture are involved, psychological factors play a HUGE part into reaction.
----Do psychological factors completely change your biomechanical base of movement? If they do, then you need to really reevaluate your training!
. Do you believe that the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques as the most powerful and economical manner of doing them?
----For Wing Chun....Yes!!!!! If you aren't going to use the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques, then why are you bothering to study and train Wing Chun? Just train kickboxing!!!!
Many of the postures in Wing Chun can be somewhat un-natural and uncomfortable, this causes people to be distracted, so they seek a more natural feeling position.
---Another somewhat damning statement in regards to "classical" Wing Chun!
Lastly, let’s not forget how the body is affected by stress in a confrontation. Wing Chun is predominately fine motor skill (which requires a great deal of concentration & control to maintain), the higher the stress the more we lean to gross motor movement.
----Essential body mechanics is a gross motor skill. If its not, then there is something wrong with the person's training!
Find any footage of a real knockdown, drag out fight involving any TCMA or Karate. What’s it look like? 99% of the time it looks like sloppy kickboxing and specific style cannot be determined.
---Perhaps you are right! So then why are we bothering to train TCMA? Why are we not all studying kickboxing, MMA or something like JKD?
You can’t compare exceptions to a rule of standard.
----Ah! But see that's the question I have been essentially asking! Why is sparring so widely seen as an exception to the rules of standard Wing Chun????
As far as Yip Man goes, there is no fight footage of him, so it can’t be determined.
---Ok. But just how likely is it that he moved like a sloppy kickboxer when he had to fight??? Just how likely do you think it is that he completely abandoned his Wing Chun structure when he had to fight??? Let's be realistic here!
Maybe they need re-evaluated. Personal combat has evolved to encompass a variety of ranges and techniques.
---Maybe they do! Food for thought! Maybe Wing Chun needs an update and we should all abandon the "classical" methods of training it!
What works for one person may not for another. Boxing can be identified as boxing because of the limited number of techniques, however, no two boxers are the same. Some boxing styles are discernibly different.
---And yet they are all recognizable as "boxing"!
TCMA has a vast arsenal of techniques, especially Wing Chun, which has several variations of very similar movements. This becomes confusing and can become downright dangerous when attempting to defend yourself.
---Wing Chun has to be one of the simplest and most straight-forward of all the TCMA's. Its not that complicated. If you talk to the WSLVT guys, it all comes down to a straight punch. So I think I have to disagree with you again. I don't think that the problem I have been pointing out has anything to do with Wing Chun being "complicated."
IMO you are kind of all over the place with this thread..
---Not really. I stated my position in the OP and think I have stuck with that position fairly well.
It seems as if you're complaining about WC when it doesn't work and looks like crappy kick boxing.
---No. I'm complaining about WHEN WC looks like crappy kick boxing and why it seems so acceptable to many people when that happens!
But then on the other hand I feel like you are passive aggressively jabbing those of us who do train like we fight with comments like, -those who do whatever they want and call it Wing Chun, when it's not??..
---That's not my intent. If you have changed up your Wing Chun so it works for you when sparring and are no longer doing "classical" Wing Chun.....and your training is consistent with what you are doing when sparring, then that's great! Start a new thread and tell us what you have changed and how it works! If you are able to maintain your "classical" Wing Chun structure and mechanics when sparring that's great as well! That means you aren't one of the people I'm talking about!
---What I am complaining about (or at least pointing out so people will think about it) is the Wing Chun guys that do classical training for years, yet when they are put in a sparring situation their Wing Chun structure and basics disappear. Then when you point this out to them they get all offended and come back with things like "Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when you really have to use it!" That just makes no sense to me.
---- My essential question is this.....why do so many people have a high standard when judging Wing Chun forms, drills, and Chi Sau, and yet such a low standard when it comes to judging Wing Chun performance in a sparring match????
----- I have not yet heard a really good explanation for that disconnect. What appears to be emerging as a conclusion is that Wing Chun just doesn't work in a sparring situation without some pretty drastic changes being made to it. Does that seem like a fair conclusion to everyone? That sure seems to be what all the responses so far are saying!
---Not really. I stated my position in the OP and think I have stuck with that position fairly well.
It seems as if you're complaining about WC when it doesn't work and looks like crappy kick boxing.
---No. I'm complaining about WHEN WC looks like crappy kick boxing and why it seems so acceptable to many people when that happens!
But then on the other hand I feel like you are passive aggressively jabbing those of us who do train like we fight with comments like, -those who do whatever they want and call it Wing Chun, when it's not??..
---That's not my intent. If you have changed up your Wing Chun so it works for you when sparring and are no longer doing "classical" Wing Chun.....and your training is consistent with what you are doing when sparring, then that's great! Start a new thread and tell us what you have changed and how it works! If you are able to maintain your "classical" Wing Chun structure and mechanics when sparring that's great as well! That means you aren't one of the people I'm talking about!
---What I am complaining about (or at least pointing out so people will think about it) is the Wing Chun guys that do classical training for years, yet when they are put in a sparring situation their Wing Chun structure and basics disappear. Then when you point this out to them they get all offended and come back with things like "Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when you really have to use it!" That just makes no sense to me.
---- My essential question is this.....why do so many people have a high standard when judging Wing Chun forms, drills, and Chi Sau, and yet such a low standard when it comes to judging Wing Chun performance in a sparring match????
----- I have not yet heard a really good explanation for that disconnect. What appears to be emerging as a conclusion is that Wing Chun just doesn't work in a sparring situation without some pretty drastic changes being made to it. Does that seem like a fair conclusion to everyone? That sure seems to be what all the responses so far are saying!
Kickboxer101
Master Black Belt
Ok. So tell me. Is your form and technique in training greatly different from your form and technique when sparring? I'm not talking about "looking pretty." I'm simply talking about the maxim..."fight the way you train and train the way you fight!" So is that true of you as a kickboxer?
Stop focusing on techniques. You can do a jab even in WC without breaking the concepts. It is even present in the forms if you know where to look. Yet that jab will look like boxing for someone that does not know what they are seeing.
So this discussion is kind of strange. You are saying things look a certain way and therefore it is a sloppy version of what it looks like. This is opinion that you have based on nothing at all. There is nothing saying whatever you are seeing does not follow the concepts even if it looks nothing like the drills or forms. Problem is that people when thinking of WC also assumes that it should look like the first form, static in nature and solid structure.
If WC looks that way when you apply weapons people would die like flies if taught WC weapon forms.
