Wing Chun Sparring

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy,
Thank you for taking the time to respond. With the instruction and training I've had I agree with that.
Would you be willing to share a thought or two as to the relationship of the stances, structures, and movements within kwan training and other parts of the system or do you find any relationship at all?

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Hi Danny- there are lots of relationships.I will touch on some key ones in Ip Man kwan usage.
1. The spacing of the hands.Among other things that helps the hands to coordinate together.
2.For developing power the wide horse stance and the use of the pole helps develop power and aim.The narrower horse stance does that but with more speed.
3 Unlike the northern spear work the positioning of the kwan-keeps the close alignment with the body structure
4.When pulling back in the narrow horse the front foot cat strance helps balance the heavy pole.
5All stances control the pole so that the pole does not control you
6. the biu kwan really develops body unity
7. Forward and backward bracing stances help with deflections in different angles
8 the complementary positioning of the hands helps prevent the pole from being knocked out of the hand.
Of course there is more-one could write a book on it. The kwan trains you for long weapons and the
do for shorter weapons. The Romans -not the same usage or weapons- but it is interesting they also depended on the spear and the short sword. The Indians as well.

 

[Danny T]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Danny- there are lots of relationships.I will touch on some key ones in Ip Man kwan usage.
1. The spacing of the hands.Among other things that helps the hands to coordinate together.
2.For developing power the wide horse stance and the use of the pole helps develop power and aim.The narrower horse stance does that but with more speed.
3 Unlike the northern spear work the positioning of the kwan-keeps the close alignment with the body structure
4.When pulling back in the narrow horse the front foot cat strance helps balance the heavy pole.
5All stances control the pole so that the pole does not control you
6. the biu kwan really develops body unity
7. Forward and backward bracing stances help with deflections in different angles
8 the complementary positioning of the hands helps prevent the pole from being knocked out of the hand.
Of course there is more-one could write a book on it. The kwan trains you for long weapons and the
do for shorter weapons. The Romans -not the same usage or weapons- but it is interesting they also depended on the spear and the short sword. The Indians as well.

Thank you Joy.
This affirms numerous aspects of what I have learned while giving rise to some that I will continue to research.
I appreciate your sharing.

 

[Vajramusti]

You are welcome Danny

 

[anerlich]

Personally, if my sparring works and looks like *good* kickboxing I'll be happy.

I don't spar pugilistically with significant contact anymore due to age (61), over $50,000 of dental work I don't want to put at risk, and a progressive lack of interest in getting hit in the face. I grapple four days a week and go hard for at least a couple of rounds, so I think I'm continuing to push myself.

When I did spar, I used to bob and weave, and use roundhouse and spinning kicks aimed at the legs, body and the head. My Wing Chun instructor taught me all that stuff and is still crazy good at it himself. Roundhouse kicks work really well on the sidestep, whatever the stylistic YouTube police might say. Arrest me, mofos. My lawyer will have me back on the street within the hour and get you laughed out of court.

I used to change levels and hit WC guys with low ankle shoots a lot as well, probably about an 80% success rate.

Effective base, structure, and posture are based on physics and kinesiology, not any style.

These days my martial arts training is Jiu Jitsu and forms from Wing Chun and other TCMA styles I have studied. I'm not a stylistic purist so don't feel I have a set of stylistic rules or laws I have to stick to.

I've found that when put under pressure in standup wrestling and occasionally on the ground Wing Chun structure and pak, bil, larp, bon etc. seem to come out on their own pretty often. So I guess my training did get ingrained. FWIW, which isn't a lot.

Frankly, these days I do Wing Chun forms and occasional dummy mainly for movement precision and meditative aspects.

Not good enough, you say? My response is three words, the last being "yourself", and the first, "Go". Who set the standards I am supposed to live up to, exactly?

My forms practices are an end in themselves rather than a means to anything. I practice grappling and BJJ for my self defense, stress relief, self actualisation, and "physical chess" aspirations.

Over 100 posts, some of them lengthy, on this subject? Only on a Wing Chun forum. The ghost of Terence Niehoff (sp?) is haunting this thread. Now I know why other martial arts interest me more at present.

 

[Juany118]

Personally, if my sparring works and looks like *good* kickboxing I'll be happy.

I don't spar pugilistically with significant contact anymore due to age (61), over $50,000 of dental work I don't want to put at risk, and a progressive lack of interest in getting hit in the face. I grapple four days a week and go hard for at least a couple of rounds, so I think I'm continuing to push myself.

When I did spar, I used to bob and weave, and use roundhouse and spinning kicks aimed at the legs, body and the head. My Wing Chun instructor taught me all that stuff and is still crazy good at it himself. Roundhouse kicks work really well on the sidestep, whatever the stylistic YouTube police might say. Arrest me, mofos. My lawyer will have me back on the street within the hour and get you laughed out of court.

I used to change levels and hit WC guys with low ankle shoots a lot as well, probably about an 80% success rate.

These days my martial arts training is Jiu Jitsu and forms from Wing Chun and other TCMA styles I have studied. I'm not a stylistic purist so don't feel I have a set of rules or laws I have to stick to.

I've found that when put under pressure in standup wrestling and occasionally on the ground Wing Chun structure and pak, bil, larp, bon etc. seem to come out on their own pretty often. So I guess my training did get ingrained. FWIW, which isn't a lot.

Frankly, these days I do Wing Chun forms and occasional dummy mainly for movement precision and meditative aspects.

Not good enough, you say? My response is three words, the last being "yourself", and the first, "Go". Who set the standards I am supposed to live up to, exactly?

My forms practices are an end in themselves rather than a means to anything. I practice grappling and BJJ for my self defense, stress relief, self actualisation, and "physical chess" aspirations.

Over 100 posts, some of them lengthy, on this subject? Only on a Wing Chun forum. The ghost of Terence Niehoff (sp?) is haunting this thread. Now I know why other martial arts interest me more at present.

Yeah kinda kills me that only on this form do we have "that is real <insert martial arts>" debates.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah kinda kills me that only on this form do we have "that is real <insert martial arts>" debates.

Pureblood + Muggle -> Mudblood

WC + MA X -> ...

 

[Juany118]

Pureblood + Muggle -> Mudblood

WC + MA X -> ...

It doesn't even have to be that though. I am fairly certain that some people would look at the Chun Kiu of Grand Master Cheung's Lineage and alone say "that isn't WC." The fact I may personally use certain Kali techniques, say a "cover" (looks vaguely like you are saluting) instead of a tan-bong would only make matters worse.

 

[Phobius]

-And why do you believe that "moving your body correctly".....according to what is taught in the Wing Chun forms and drills.....would NOT resemble Wing Chun???

I am gonna say something that you wont agree with most likely and therefore it serves no point continuing this discussion.

Why would adding "offensive intent" alter your core Wing Chun mechanics??

Try adding offensive intent and then we can talk. It does not alter mechanics. It alters appearance and would because it will differ from drills and forms be called sloppy kickboxing by you.

-But standing sideways you will? I'm sorry. I'm not following your points very well. You skip answering my direct questions and aren't putting together a very good description of what you mean.

You make the target smaller. The rest was just to say that people can hit you without you reaching them when standing squared. This is due to long range punching which forces you to not keep squared stance. Standing somewhat sideways is not to punch but reduce target size. Standing completely sideways may be something else altogether. Only done that in Karate for forms and drills only.

-Ok. So like "Nobody Important" you see Wing Chun as a style to "augment" something else and not as a good independent style all of its own? That's ok! Why haven't you just come out and said that in the past?

Think you do not understand what I mean. The system may be complete if you train it correctly. The concepts and mechanics are advanced in such a degree that you need to understand other mechanics as to not leave yourself lacking basic knowledge.

How can you understand fighting others if you do not know how they fight?

Many of these things I see in forms and drills but you seem not to. So discussion gets complicated because you want to say it is not WC and therefore sloppy kickboxing.

Now I say sparring as done in your videos may be sloppy whether it is WC or not and besides the point.

So do you want to discuss sloppy sparring or WC not resembling forms? We cannot discuss both at the same time.

 

[KPM]

. My Wing Chun instructor taught me all that stuff and is still crazy good at it himself.

---If I remember right, wasn't he a pretty talented Kyukushin Karate fighter prior to taking up Wing Chun?


These days my martial arts training is Jiu Jitsu and forms from Wing Chun and other TCMA styles I have studied. I'm not a stylistic purist so don't feel I have a set of stylistic rules or laws I have to stick to.

---Ah! Then see you are not the person I have been talking about! I've been talking about those guys that actually say they are doing Wing Chun and then get all offended when you point out that they aren't really using much of their Wing Chun when they spar!



My forms practices are an end in themselves rather than a means to anything. I practice grappling and BJJ for my self defense, stress relief, self actualisation, and "physical chess" aspirations.

---Nothing wrong with that! So would you agree with several here that Wing Chun in and of itself is not good enough as a stand-alone art in today's sparring/fighting environment?

Over 100 posts, some of them lengthy, on this subject? Only on a Wing Chun forum. The ghost of Terence Niehoff (sp?) is haunting this thread. Now I know why other martial arts interest me more at present.

---I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or a slam. TN was very good at making his point and then sticking to it and arguing it very logically. But we certainly got people thinking and posting! I do find it interesting that from the beginning of this thread I have simply been asking the questions.....why do some people say they are doing Wing Chun, but then essentially abandon good Wing Chun when sparring and get all butt-hurt when you point out to them that this is what is happening? And look at how butt-hurt people got about that simple question!!!! I've simply asked why some people have such a lower standard for Wing Chun in sparring compared to Wing Chun in training. It took until the end of this thread to actually get people to come right out and say...."because Wing Chun doesn't work well in sparring!"

---Another interesting point that has emerged is this whole idea that you can be doing Wing Chun if you are using the principles of Wing Chun, and you don't have to actually use the core mechanics and structure. And that JKD is still actually Wing Chun for that reason. Do you agree with that Andrew?

 

[Phobius]

To conclude once more. You can not say that doing what you do as 'good Wing Chun' and everything else as lacking mechanics.

I have tried to tell you that I do not agree with your definition of what is Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

Try adding offensive intent and then we can talk. It does not alter mechanics. It alters appearance and would because it will differ from drills and forms be called sloppy kickboxing by you.

---So it would not make someone resort to....do I have to spell it out again?.....swinging punches from the shoulders, bending forward at the waist bobbing & weaving, throwing punches with the elbows all flared out, etc??? THAT has been what I am referring to. If that is NOT was is happening for you and yours, then what are we arguing about?? I get the impression you have not been reading what I have been saying very closely. I think you are in that "butt-hurt" category.



Standing somewhat sideways is not to punch but reduce target size. Standing completely sideways may be something else altogether. Only done that in Karate for forms and drills only.

---And Phobius, standing completely sideways is what I have mentioned several times now!!!! Again, it seems you have not been reading very closely what I have been saying.

---Besides, when people aren't following the points being made or even really attempting to give direct answers to questions asked it becomes hard to carry on a good discussion. It starts to stray all over the place and people don't bother to go back and read what has come before. I get tired of repeating myself. So I think this one is drawing to a close.

 

[KPM]

To conclude once more. You can not say that doing what you do as 'good Wing Chun' and everything else as lacking mechanics.

I have tried to tell you that I do not agree with your definition of what is Wing Chun.

So what is your definition of Wing Chun? Mine is very very simple. Which is why I am getting tired of repeating myself. Let me just give a brief summary of what I have been saying........I pointed out that some people claim to be doing Wing Chun and end up doing some version of "sloppy kickboxing" when sparring. They seem to abandon all or most of their Wing Chun mechanics and structure under pressure and then get all offended when you point that out to them. And multiple people have proven this here by getting all offended when I pointed that out! I defined what I meant by "a version of sloppy kickboxing".....as things like bending forward at the waist bobbing and weaving, swinging from the shoulders with wide loopy punches, punching with the elbows all flared out instead of keeping them in, bouncing around on the toes, etc. If that's not you, then why are you so offended??? I've also said that Wing Chun mechanics allows plenty of room for some adaptation and variation without resorting to what I described above. One of my points was that we have forms and drills for a reason. These teach core Wing Chun mechanics and structure...how to send and receive force in a "Wing Chun way".....how to move like Wing Chun. You have to be doing more than just a handful of Wing Chun principles to really be doing Wing Chun. I don't think JKD is just a version of Wing Chun. And I don't think the JKD guys would disagree. And so if you are using those core Wing Chun mechanics and structure that dictate how a Wing Chun guy moves, how can it NOT look somewhat like Wing Chun???? How can it NOT be recognizable as Wing Chun....just as kickboxing is recognizable as kickboxing, western boxing is recognizable as western boxing, and Judo is recognizable as Judo? Now if someone wants to "mix and match" and use multiple things when they spar, that's great! Just don't turn around and claim its all Wing Chun like so many seem to want to do. Just be honest about what you are doing and why! Is that so hard? One of the conclusions expressed here is that Wing Chun doesn't function so well as a stand alone art and should be used to augment other things. Maybe that's true. It is a valid opinion.

 

[Juany118]

How can it NOT be recognizable as Wing Chun....just as kickboxing is recognizable as kickboxing, western boxing is recognizable as western boxing, and Judo is recognizable as Judo?

That was already gone over... The arts you just named rely on a lot more gross motor skills. It is far easier to maintain under pressure. To maintain fine motor skills under pressure it takes A LOT of training. Only one video you posted shows what you state and it was with people, from my perception, who are youngsters and the one managed to do half decently regardless. The first video was MMA so it was irrelevant, the black and white one was two guys screwing around the TKD one is more like your statement below, I will address it.

As for the videos you said proved your point they were no where near as under pressure as the first two. They were so obviously "exhibition" that it doesn't count as pressure to me. To me being under pressure is that you either are definitely wearing head gear to minimize the danger or, like in the MMA and MUSU video I posted with Sifu Jerry you are prepared to watch people get hurt. That is pressure.

IMO the problem isn't in WC, or the student. The problem is with the instruction. Today in the west doing "hard" sparring in TMAs seems the exception and not the rule. People are concerned about liability, keeping people coming in the door (to keep the money flowing) etc. It's actually one of the reasons my school's member's vary so much. People get hurt. I have come home with bruises and even hands swollen (the hands were from lucky knife thrusts). On Thursday we had two students needing to ice hands, one might have a broken knuckle, from getting wacked HARD with padded sticks while wearing padded gloves no less. You fold under pressure unless you train under pressure. Pressure means the fear of pain.

THEN you have to take into account that many people take ALL Martial arts simply for the cool/fun factor.

Now if someone wants to "mix and match" and use multiple things when they spar, that's great! Just don't turn around and claim its all Wing Chun like so many seem to want to do.

Wait a minute. So if I use Kali techniques to disarm someone then go Wing Chun to hit em it's not Wing Chun? That's like saying "well you didn't eat beef, you ate chili." And thats ignoring the fact that with all the different styles of WC at this point one person will say what I do isn't WC just because its TWC. In a 5 minute fight, if I did WC for 2 minutes, I still did WC.

Just be honest about what you are doing and why! Is that so hard? One of the conclusions expressed here is that Wing Chun doesn't function so well as a stand alone art and should be used to augment other things. Maybe that's true. It is a valid opinion.

I think you misrepresent the point made. The point was that WC is not a beginners art (I personally disagree with that point, I just think it is an Art with a different mindset and that creates a barrier) and that, like ALL TMAs it is not all encompassing, but it is different than saying it's not a stand alone art.

 

[KPM]

That was already gone over... The arts you just named rely on a lot more gross motor skills. It is far easier to maintain under pressure.

---I agree with that point. But I have also pointed out that basic core mechanics....how you move...IS a gross motor skill. And if its not, then there has been a problem with the training.


The first video was MMA so it was irrelevant,

---Have you also not been following my points? It absolutely was relevant to two points.....first, the idea that people do a lot of things outside of Wing Chun mechanics and still say they are doing Wing Chun. That video was titled "Shaolin Wing Chun no MMA" when it was obviously about 99% MMA and hardly any actual Wing Chun. Second, that Wing Chun should be at least vaguely recognizable. In my opinion, in that video if you didn't know which guy was supposed to be the Wing Chun guy, you wouldn't be able to pick him out just by watching that video. So yeah, very relevant if you have actually been trying to follow what I have been saying. Again, I'm growing tired of repeating myself and am about ready to bow out of this discussion unless someone has something new and interesting to say.


the black and white one was two guys screwing around

---And again, it was labeled as "full contact Wing Chun sparring" or something like that. Another one of my points was being truthful about what you are actually doing.


To me being under pressure is that you either are definitely wearing head gear to minimize the danger or, like in the MMA and MUSU video I posted with Sifu Jerry you are prepared to watch people get hurt. That is pressure.

----Now you are just splitting hairs for the sake of arguing. My point was that when people have to actually use their Wing Chun doing more than forms and drills it seemed to fall apart. You can argue about what "true" pressure is all you want. That isn't relevant to what I was saying.


IMO the problem isn't in WC, or the student. The problem is with the instruction. Today in the west doing "hard" sparring in TMAs seems the exception and not the rule. People are concerned about liability, keeping people coming in the door (to keep the money flowing) etc.

---Now that is a good point and very valid! And that goes back to one of my other points, if you had really been paying attention! I have said several times now that one should "fight the way you train and train the way you fight" if you want to be efficient with your time and effort.



THEN you have to take into account that many people take ALL Martial arts simply for the cool/fun factor.

---And again, I asked the question here more than once....are you training to be good at Wing Chun, or are you training to be good at sparring? You think you are arguing with me when you are actually just rewording what I've already said!


Wait a minute. So if I use Kali techniques to disarm someone then go Wing Chun to hit em it's not Wing Chun?

---I've have NEVER said that doing that would not be valid! But if people didn't know that you also did Kali, and you labeled a video of that as being all Wing Chun, would that not be a bit deceptive and even borderline dishonest?



I think you misrepresent the point made.

---No I don't think so. Go back a reread what "nobody important" wrote.

 

[Juany118]

That was already gone over... The arts you just named rely on a lot more gross motor skills. It is far easier to maintain under pressure.

---I agree with that point. But I have also pointed out that basic core mechanics....how you move...IS a gross motor skill. And if its not, then there has been a problem with the training.

I would disagree with this only I actually found the WC structure to be a fine motor skill (meaning it need be learned and practiced.). It is gross motor skill to lean left, right, or back to avoid a blow. It is technically a fine motor skill to keep your center and use footwork to achieve the same goal.


The first video was MMA so it was irrelevant,

---Have you also not been following my points? It absolutely was relevant to two points.....first, the idea that people do a lot of things outside of Wing Chun mechanics and still say they are doing Wing Chun. That video was titled "Shaolin Wing Chun no MMA" when it was obviously about 99% MMA and hardly any actual Wing Chun.

And here in I believe lies the key issue. It is not logical to say a video saying "pure WC" is actually that. Many such videos are posted by fanbois who ripped it and labeled it as such because so and so said they studied WC. As such when I see such videos I will actually slow stuff down to .25 on YouTube and ask, "did I see any WC?". So I say, in the first video "MMA who knows who posted and/or titled the video."

Basically I fact check, if there are no facts in evidence to support the claim of what amounts to an anonymous internet handle I dismiss it. Hell, I am so OCD about fact checking I probably wouldn't have posted Sifu Jerry's fight if I didn't know the man.

But that's just me.

 

[Nobody Important]

[

 

[Nobody Important]

I've never been a believer in being able to switch from one style to another in a fight, and say I'm using this style now this style. In example Wing Chun to Kali or Wing Chun to wrestling.

You need to be able to create coherent transitions from one to the other not present in the art to begin with. So in essence you are creating a hybrid art & not really switching from one to the other.

One of the reasons MMA works so well is because transitions are created for the person to switch from striking to kicking to throwing to grappling smoothly.

 

[Juany118]

I've never been a believer in being able to switch from one style to another in a fight, and say I'm using this style now this style. In example Wing Chun to Kali or Wing Chun to wrestling.

You need to be able to create coherent transitions from one to the other not present in the art to begin with. So in essence you are creating a hybrid art & not really switching from one to the other.

One of the reasons MMA works so well is because transitions are created for the person to switch from striking to kicking to throwing to grappling smoothly.

So you don't think (since you named wrestling) that someone can't be WC fighting and then say "fff it" and smoothly transition into a two leg take down, if they know how to apply one? That is rather silly because if it wasn't possible then hybrid arts in general wouldn't exist.

 

[Buka]

As an observation from an outsider -
It seems that many people train and apply Wing Chun differently. And it all seems to work really well. Just makes me like Wing Chun all the more.

It is kind of fun following the discussions, though, in a "like my in-laws do it" kind of way.

 

[Juany118]

As an observation from an outsider -
It seems that many people train and apply Wing Chun differently. And it all seems to work really well. Just makes me like Wing Chun all the more.

It is kind of fun following the discussions, though, in a "like my in-laws do it" kind of way.

That's largely been my point and I am actually confused as heck by KLM because I remember another thread when he was supporting Orr in a video he made about WC being in his MMA, I recall no comments about how it didn't look WC. Now this. I am weirded out tbh.