Wing Chun Sparring

[JPinAZ]

"His fighting skill" is more important than "his WC".

You toolbox may contain many tools. Your tools can come from different hardware stores.

And yet there's still one 'best way' to use each tool depending on the given task...

 

[KPM]

Stop focusing on techniques.

---I'm not focusing on techniques. I'm focusing on fundamental biomechanics. Wing Chun teaches you to move in a certain way. It teaches you to send and receive force in a certain way....with a certain structure. If you abandon that when sparring then how can you say you are still doing Wing Chun?


So this discussion is kind of strange. You are saying things look a certain way and therefore it is a sloppy version of what it looks like. This is opinion that you have based on nothing at all.

---Nothing at all? Its just plain common sense!!!! I've said it multiple times already....a boxer is recognizable as a boxer when he fights/spars....a Muay Thai guy is recognizable as a Muay Thai guy when he fights/spars.....why should Wing Chun be any different? Why do you have a certain standard with the way Wing Chun should be done when doing forms, drills, and Chi Sau but not when sparring? That makes no sense!

 

[KPM]

And yet there's still one 'best way' to use each tool depending on the given task...

And I would say there is a "best way" to use each tool depending on how you've been taught to use that tool! Why abandon what you've been taught just because the pressure is on???

 

[drop bear]

----So you don't think Wing Chun works as designed? If Wing Chun is a "method" of combat, shouldn't the Wing Chunner be using that method when engaged in combat and not using a kickboxing method???

There isn't really a kickboxing method like there is a wing chun method. So you can spar fight and compete in kickboxing using wing chun if you want to.(within some rules issues)

So if you were to relate the question. "do you want to be good at kickboxing or good at sparring?" well it is the same thing.

Even if you have used chun movements to be good at kickboxing/sparring.

This idea also comes up a bit with physicality and sparring. So you may have better technique but he is just a unit and towels you up. And the general consensus is tough. Deal with it. You don't get style points.

People will try to shy away from these factors. Because it is a bit crap to get beat up by someone who you should be better than. But they are realities of fighting. From sparring to competition to self defence. They never go away.

 

[KPM]

There isn't really a kickboxing method like there is a wing chun method. So you can spar fight and compete in kickboxing using wing chun if you want to.(within some rules issues)

---Sure there is! I'm not talking about a ruleset. I'm talking about a way of moving and fighting. And there most certainly is a kickboxing method! You train with a kickboxing coach and you are going to learn a specific way to move, specific footwork, a specific way to generate power in punches, a specific way to pivot the body when kicking, a specific way to cover or defend against strikes, etc.


So if you were to relate the question. "do you want to be good at kickboxing or good at sparring?" well it is the same thing.

---Exactly! So why is the same not true of a lot of people's Wing Chun??


And the general consensus is tough. Deal with it. You don't get style points.

---Yeah. Its looking like the general consensus here is that "classical" Wing Chun doesn't work under the pressure of sparring and must be modified and abandoned to a large extent if you want to win a sparring match.

 

[drop bear]

There isn't really a kickboxing method like there is a wing chun method. So you can spar fight and compete in kickboxing using wing chun if you want to.(within some rules issues)

---Sure there is! I'm not talking about a ruleset. I'm talking about a way of moving and fighting. And there most certainly is a kickboxing method! You train with a kickboxing coach and you are going to learn a specific way to move, specific footwork, a specific way to generate power in punches, a specific way to pivot the body when kicking, a specific way to cover or defend against strikes, etc.


So if you were to relate the question. "do you want to be good at kickboxing or good at sparring?" well it is the same thing.

---Exactly! So why is the same not true of a lot of people's Wing Chun??


And the general consensus is tough. Deal with it. You don't get style points.

---Yeah. Its looking like the general consensus here is that "classical" Wing Chun doesn't work under the pressure of sparring and must be modified and abandoned to a large extent if you want to win a sparring match.

Just the last bit. And i found this idea kind of interesting.

It seems that there is this idea that someone trains in a system. Then takes that system and puts it in a live environment and for whatever reason has to throw it out the window. And do something else.

From that the conclusion is that the live environment is somehow faulty. Not the training. Which to me is backwards.

I would suggest that if you want to win a sparring match. Your martial arts has to be good.

 

[drop bear]

By the way. Sparring is really only a rule set.

 

[Danny T]

Sure! But I have yet to see anyone throw a wide hook punch in their knife form or a roundhouse kick in their pole form!

No not in the pole form however, we do have hooks, uppercuts, and overhands as well as a roundhouse type kick. Maybe you don't but in the wc I have learned they are there and are use. Not in the same specific manner as a what today's boxers do but they are there.
Forms for us are a kind of reference list. Not everything in the system in specifically shown in the forms but they are there in other aspects of the training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And yet there's still one 'best way' to use each tool depending on the given task...

Of course.

1. chain punch, Tan Shou - WC.
2. hook punch, uppercut - boxing.
3, side kick - TKD.
4. roundhouse kick, flying knee = MT.
5. lock - eagle claw.
6. take down - wrestling.
7. ground game - BJJ.
8. ...

 

[Juany118]

^^^But would you say the same thing about his Wing Chun if he consistently assumed a low horse stance when fighting? How about if he danced around on his toes? What would be your judgment of his Wing Chun?

What does WC even look like? What you do in training is building the skills, learning the principles etc. Do I use another MA simply because once a fight starts I keep my hands in fists and not open? Am I using a different art because when I move I move on my toes but when I attack or defend I am still maintaining proper structure? Obviously "looking like" WC, imo, is about clearly demonstrating the principles of the art. The structure, tight footwork etc that forms the foundation upon which the techniques are applied from.

I don't know of any traditional MA that "looks" like it does in training in Lei Tai, sparring etc. However if you look at the fight you will see them applying the principles and techniques of the art. The reason for it is this. Especially when facing people fighting using other systems your actions are not solely dictated by you but by the actions of your opponent. As such what makes it WC is do they maintain their structure? Do they protect, and attack, from their centerline? Are they disrupting and are they attacking their opponents center? Are they pressing forward and applying constant pressure unless forced to back off? Etc. If so they are doing WC.

WC is a conceptual MA based on core principles. So long as the principles are held to and the techniques based on these principles are used then it's WC.

You can still maintain these core principles without the appearance you see in training. The appearance in training is so the new student can learn how it "feels" to be "grounded" via structure so that attacks start from the ground and the the force of incoming attacks go through the body into the ground and don't get "bound" up in the "jelly" at your hips and thus disrupting your center. Once you know how this feels, you can achieve it without a "classic" appearing stance. If you marry yourself to what are ultimately training tools, it will limit how you can react in a real fight.

 

[Juany118]

No not in the pole form however, we do have hooks, uppercuts, and overhands as well as a roundhouse type kick. Maybe you don't but in the wc I have learned they are there and are use. Not in the same specific manner as a what today's boxers do but they are there.
Forms for us are a kind of reference list. Not everything in the system in specifically shown in the forms but they are there in other aspects of the training.

I think this might be the issue as well. In my WC we learn a "Buffalo" punch. It's only supposed to be used on "soft" areas but it is a "hook" punch. While not often used we also learn a round kick but it is different in that it stops at the apex if you miss, you don't "windmill" follow through like you might in TKD. Also punching is seen as largely a "beginner" technique. Once you are at a certain point palm strikes and biu sau are your "go to" empty hand attacks.

It wouldn't make sense if you only straight punched. Sometimes there is no "opening" for a straight punch but you still have to attack. The trick is striking through an opening and to still keep your "center" behind the blow, in the case of a hook punch with rotation from the waist.

I know some VT people will say "thats not WC" but it is my WC.

 

[Juany118]

Example, while it doesn't look pretty, in the video below (especially in slow motion) you see With (and Provisional Master under Grand Master William Cheung) us a "crashing" bong sau to transition into a lap grab to trap the hands of his opponent so he can then get the KO. If you didn't know the techniques you wouldn't know it was WC. Elsewhere in the same fight (there are multiple videos) he will do the "tight" round kick previously mentioned as well.

 

[Juany118]

.

---Nothing at all? Its just plain common sense!!!! I've said it multiple times already....a boxer is recognizable as a boxer when he fights/spars....a Muay Thai guy is recognizable as a Muay Thai guy when he fights/spars.....why should Wing Chun be any different? Why do you have a certain standard with the way Wing Chun should be done when doing forms, drills, and Chi Sau but not when sparring? That makes no sense!

A WC guy is recognizable as a WC guy if you slow things down or have a good eye. Thing is in a real fight a tan or a bong (just as examples) can look like interrupted strikes at full speed, a palm strike (since we keep our hands open) can look like a slap etc.

 

[Nobody Important]

True, they can and should IMO, but they will still need to train this against other styles. If Wing Chun is a method of combat, what’s the difference? Do you want form or function? Sometimes the perception of proper form isn’t compatible with real world function.

----So you don't think Wing Chun works as designed? If Wing Chun is a "method" of combat, shouldn't the Wing Chunner be using that method when engaged in combat and not using a kickboxing method???


Inability to conform or adapt is a sign of a dead method.

---Absolutely! But one should be able to conform and adapt within the context of their Wing Chun. Not abandon to the extent that it is no longer recognizable! Wing Chun is a flexible method. But it still has defined ways of doing things that make it "Wing Chun." Just as boxing has defined ways of doing things that make it "boxing", or Muay Thai, etc.



Wing Chun offers a plethora of methods neatly packed into box, problem is, not all of Wing Chun’s solutions are as economical or ideal for certain situations. Because of this, adaptation is needed.

---Wing Chun is "stand up" fighting method. Should it not work as designed when engaged in "stand up" sparring?


We don’t all have the same preferences, reactions or inclinations when it comes to fighting. More than just technique and posture are involved, psychological factors play a HUGE part into reaction.

----Do psychological factors completely change your biomechanical base of movement? If they do, then you need to really reevaluate your training!


. Do you believe that the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques as the most powerful and economical manner of doing them?

----For Wing Chun....Yes!!!!! If you aren't going to use the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques, then why are you bothering to study and train Wing Chun? Just train kickboxing!!!!



Many of the postures in Wing Chun can be somewhat un-natural and uncomfortable, this causes people to be distracted, so they seek a more natural feeling position.

---Another somewhat damning statement in regards to "classical" Wing Chun!



Lastly, let’s not forget how the body is affected by stress in a confrontation. Wing Chun is predominately fine motor skill (which requires a great deal of concentration & control to maintain), the higher the stress the more we lean to gross motor movement.

----Essential body mechanics is a gross motor skill. If its not, then there is something wrong with the person's training!




Find any footage of a real knockdown, drag out fight involving any TCMA or Karate. What’s it look like? 99% of the time it looks like sloppy kickboxing and specific style cannot be determined.

---Perhaps you are right! So then why are we bothering to train TCMA? Why are we not all studying kickboxing, MMA or something like JKD?




You can’t compare exceptions to a rule of standard.

----Ah! But see that's the question I have been essentially asking! Why is sparring so widely seen as an exception to the rules of standard Wing Chun????




As far as Yip Man goes, there is no fight footage of him, so it can’t be determined.

---Ok. But just how likely is it that he moved like a sloppy kickboxer when he had to fight??? Just how likely do you think it is that he completely abandoned his Wing Chun structure when he had to fight??? Let's be realistic here!



Maybe they need re-evaluated. Personal combat has evolved to encompass a variety of ranges and techniques.

---Maybe they do! Food for thought! Maybe Wing Chun needs an update and we should all abandon the "classical" methods of training it!




What works for one person may not for another. Boxing can be identified as boxing because of the limited number of techniques, however, no two boxers are the same. Some boxing styles are discernibly different.

---And yet they are all recognizable as "boxing"!


TCMA has a vast arsenal of techniques, especially Wing Chun, which has several variations of very similar movements. This becomes confusing and can become downright dangerous when attempting to defend yourself.

---Wing Chun has to be one of the simplest and most straight-forward of all the TCMA's. Its not that complicated. If you talk to the WSLVT guys, it all comes down to a straight punch. So I think I have to disagree with you again. I don't think that the problem I have been pointing out has anything to do with Wing Chun being "complicated."

----So you don't think Wing Chun works as designed? If Wing Chun is a "method" of combat, shouldn't the Wing Chunner be using that method when engaged in combat and not using a kickboxing method???

Honestly, not as well as many believe. Wing Chun has good theory & strategy, but in many cases this strategy is best utilized using a different method. I know, I’m a heretic.


---Absolutely! But one should be able to conform and adapt within the context of their Wing Chun. Not abandon to the extent that it is no longer recognizable! Wing Chun is a flexible method. But it still has defined ways of doing things that make it "Wing Chun." Just as boxing has defined ways of doing things that make it "boxing", or Muay Thai, etc.

To an extent yes, but this requires limiting what from Wing Chun is used. Take for example using Wing Chun techniques solely for boxing (no kicking, elbows, trapping), would it look drastically different from boxing? There are prominent theories suggesting that Wing Chun was heavily influenced by western bare knuckle boxing. I surmise that if you eliminated a fair amount of the techniques to conform to a boxing rule set, it’ll look like boxing with some semblance of Wing Chun structure.



---Wing Chun is "stand up" fighting method. Should it not work as designed when engaged in "stand up" sparring?

Yes, as long as Chi Sau isn’t trying to be used. As I stated before, you cannot force grappling tactics into a boxing frame and expect it to work. Simple passes and clinching can be used, we see it all the time in boxing. Doing volleys back and forth in chi sau where you are constantly focusing on defense is inviting defeat.



----Do psychological factors completely change your biomechanical base of movement? If they do, then you need to really reevaluate your training!

Absolutely yes! The higher the stress level the greater the ability to react, use sensitivity and perform small movements. I don’t know anyone beyond those individuals that actually fight regularly who can maintain the necessary motor skill involved in complex martial arts that require strict structure protocols. It is a perishable skill if not trained regularly, repetition only goes so far, fear also has to be present to condition a mind that can react under duress.


----For Wing Chun....Yes!!!!! If you aren't going to use the Wing Chun method of deploying these techniques, then why are you bothering to study and train Wing Chun? Just train kickboxing!!!!

As far as striking and kicking go, there are some better and more powerful methods. To ignore the usefulness of these methods is to limit yourself. Even Yip Man was known to confuse his students by striking them with a technique or two he picked up from Choy Lay Fut.


--Another somewhat damning statement in regards to "classical" Wing Chun!

Maybe so, but none the less true. (Regarding stance).


----Essential body mechanics is a gross motor skill. If its not, then there is something wrong with the person's training!

The posture of Wing Chun isn’t natural for boxing, it is based upon Zhan Zhuang, which is Chi Kung posture for energy cultivation. It isn’t as easy to maintain because it is smaller making it harder to generate power. I know this is the whole idea behind the postures, but when stressed we will seek familiarity and comfort in movement and posture, why not exploit it?


---Perhaps you are right! So then why are we bothering to train TCMA? Why are we not all studying kickboxing, MMA or something like JKD?

Any art is just a tool, take what is useful and discard what isn’t If your goal is to be able to effectively defend yourself, why does it have to look cool? Personally I don’t care if I look like a mentally retarded meth addict with Tourette’s as long as I win. You don’t win fights with style points.

 

[Juany118]

And I would say there is a "best way" to use each tool depending on how you've been taught to use that tool! Why abandon what you've been taught just because the pressure is on???

Simply because it doesn't "look" like "classical" WC doesn't mean anything was abandoned. I really think your issue lies in the fact that you don't seem to understand that the picture perfect postures in the forms are their as a training tool to teach the principles and to build certain physical attributes (stronger quads, knees etc). You can adhere too just about every principle I can think off, off the top of my head, without sticking to the training structures.

It's kinda like this Kali drill.

Now when I see this drill I say "yep FMA" however you will never look like this in a fight. The purpose of the drill is to teach you to use your non dominant hand effectively, flow, how to weave two weapons without getting your weapons, or opposing hands, tied up with each other and then to integrate footwork while at the same time taking offensive and counter offensive actions, among other things. This is not what it looks like in a fight though, it's just about training principles.

 

[KPM]

No not in the pole form however, we do have hooks, uppercuts, and overhands as well as a roundhouse type kick. Maybe you don't but in the wc I have learned they are there and are use. Not in the same specific manner as a what today's boxers do but they are there.
Forms for us are a kind of reference list. Not everything in the system in specifically shown in the forms but they are there in other aspects of the training.

And again, on multiple posts here I have referred to core body mechanics as more important than specific techniques. If you aren't using those core body mechanics, are you still doing Wing Chun?

 

[Juany118]

And again, on multiple posts here I have referred to core body mechanics as more important than specific techniques. If you aren't using those core body mechanics, are you still doing Wing Chun?

What core mechanics are you referring too. I think this is the issue people are getting hung up on. You keep saying this, but so far the core mechanics I am thinking off can be maintained without the "classic" WC appearance.

 

[KPM]

A WC guy is recognizable as a WC guy if you slow things down or have a good eye. Thing is in a real fight a tan or a bong (just as examples) can look like interrupted strikes at full speed, a palm strike (since we keep our hands open) can look like a slap etc.

Please go back and read what I have written throughout this thread. I would not disagree with what you've written at all! I have said multiple times I would not expect it to be "picture perfect" technique. I'm talking more about core Wing Chun mechanics. The way Wing Chun as a system teaches to move and to send and receive force. If you aren't doing that, are you still doing Wing Chun? Why do people feel the need to abandon those core mechanics just because they are in a sparring situation? I will also say I see no problem with the video you posted. The sparring vids I have seen of TWC guys are typically very recognizable as what they train.

 

[Juany118]

Please go back and read what I have written throughout this thread. I would not disagree with what you've written at all! I have said multiple times I would not expect it to be "picture perfect" technique. I'm talking more about core Wing Chun mechanics. The way Wing Chun as a system teaches to move and to send and receive force. If you aren't doing that, are you still doing Wing Chun? Why do people feel the need to abandon those core mechanics just because they are in a sparring situation? I will also say I see no problem with the video you posted. The sparring vids I have seen of TWC guys are typically very recognizable as what they train.

Can you provide an example then that I can watch? I only ask because I showed the full fight of the video I noted on another thread a couple months ago. One person insisted it wasnt WC. I explained that some of the stuff they thought were just blind throws were tans and bongs. I explained the important part of a straight punch was elbow down, fist verticals and that upon full extension it was on our centerline BUT obviously if your punch connects before full extension it won't be etc.

Also I wasn't clear on your last response to Danny. Are you saying you think a round kick and a hook punch (as examples) go against WC principles?

As for your comment about other videos where they spar and do look WC... Look at the other videos related to the one I showed you then the others side by side. In the ones I showed that was an unsanctioned fight. The guy in that video gets crushed like 3 or 4 times by Sifu Jerry. The others are more akin to what I refer to as "light sparring", bordering on demonstrations. There is a big difference between the pressure applied in each. In the end when real pressure is applied all you really need to do is adhere to core principles, not appearance, and win.

 

[KPM]

Honestly, not as well as many believe. Wing Chun has good theory & strategy, but in many cases this strategy is best utilized using a different method. I know, I’m a heretic.

----Another "damning statement" about Wing Chun. That's what, 3 now?


To an extent yes, but this requires limiting what from Wing Chun is used. Take for example using Wing Chun techniques solely for boxing (no kicking, elbows, trapping), would it look drastically different from boxing?

---Maybe, maybe not. Last I was taught Wing Chun doesn't throw straight punches with the elbows all flared out like some boxers. Last I was taught, Wing Chun doesn't bend over at the waist and swing from the shoulders when punching like a lot of boxers. So why would you expect a Wing Chun guy and a boxer to look alike when in a punching situation if the way they train to punch is drastically different?


There are prominent theories suggesting that Wing Chun was heavily influenced by western bare knuckle boxing. I surmise that if you eliminated a fair amount of the techniques to conform to a boxing rule set, it’ll look like boxing with some semblance of Wing Chun structure.

---No. It will look somewhat like "old school" boxing, which is pretty distinct from modern boxing. And you know why? Because "old school" boxing (London Prize Ring era) used very upright stances, very straight punches with the elbows down, defenses that resemble Wing Chun techniques rather than bobbing and weaving, a centerline orientation with somewhat of a "shuffling" footwork, etc. "Old school" boxing had a distinct "look" (I know! There's that word again!). It gradually evolved into modern boxing. If you laid out B&W photos from that older era next to B&W photos from 30 years later you could easily pic out which is which. Why? Because they use different body mechanics that are recognizable.



The higher the stress level the greater the ability to react, use sensitivity and perform small movements. I don’t know anyone beyond those individuals that actually fight regularly who can maintain the necessary motor skill involved in complex martial arts that require strict structure protocols. It is a perishable skill if not trained regularly, repetition only goes so far, fear also has to be present to condition a mind that can react under duress.

---And, as I stated before....core body mechanics...the essential way you move....should be a gross motor skill or there is something wrong with your training. That is the essential thing that sparring should be testing. If your basic structure breaks down under the stress of sparring then you know you need to go back and do some more training. But it seems too many be are content to just assume that their basic structure is going to fail under pressure and accept that.




As far as striking and kicking go, there are some better and more powerful methods. To ignore the usefulness of these methods is to limit yourself. Even Yip Man was known to confuse his students by striking them with a technique or two he picked up from Choy Lay Fut.

---Striking them with a technique from another system so that they have seen it and learn how to deal with it is far different than incorporating that technique into your own fighting system. I have never heard of Ip Man "mixing and matching" and including a CLT kick here, a Hung Kuen uppercut there, etc into his own fighting method.




The posture of Wing Chun isn’t natural for boxing, it is based upon Zhan Zhuang, which is Chi Kung posture for energy cultivation. It isn’t as easy to maintain because it is smaller making it harder to generate power. I know this is the whole idea behind the postures, but when stressed we will seek familiarity and comfort in movement and posture, why not exploit it?

----I disagree. The posture for Wing Chun is an upright alignment with a natural spacing of the feet. This is much more natural and easy to do compared to the low extended stances of a lot of TCMAs. That upright posture is used to smoothly transmit force and maintain structure in a "Wing Chun way." The only thing that makes it "unnatural" for boxing is when people start swinging from their shoulders and "hunching over" as a defense. Those are all seen as mistakes in Wing Chun training, so why shouldn't they be seen as mistakes in Wing Chun sparring?



Any art is just a tool, take what is useful and discard what isn’t If your goal is to be able to effectively defend yourself, why does it have to look cool? Personally I don’t care if I look like a mentally retarded meth addict with Tourette’s as long as I win. You don’t win fights with style points.

---Do you get in a lot of fights where you live? Are you around mentally retarded meth addicts much? Again, this goes back to my previous question.....are you training to be good at Wing Chun, or are you training to be good at sparring/fighting? If you are training to be good at sparring, then something like kickboxing would serve you better if that is what people in general seem to resort to when sparring.