Wing Chun Sparring

[Nobody Important]

So you don't think (since you named wrestling) that someone can't be WC fighting and then say "fff it" and smoothly transition into a two leg take down, if they know how to apply one? That is rather silly because if it wasn't possible then hybrid arts in general wouldn't exist.

No, what I'm saying is that they have created a hybrid. It is no longer one or the other. To make it effective, coherent transitioning from one method to another is needed to be able to switch back & forth without causing conflicting movements. This creates a whole new art IMO. Because of the transitions, mechanics & strategy will change.

 

[KPM]

That's largely been my point and I am actually confused as heck by KLM because I remember another thread when he was supporting Orr in a video he made about WC being in his MMA, I recall no comments about how it didn't look WC. Now this. I am weirded out tbh.

I already commented on that. I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

[anerlich]

---If I remember right, wasn't he a pretty talented Kyukushin Karate fighter prior to taking up Wing Chun?

Sort of. He did Kyokushin as his first martial art as a kid. Then did Wing Chun for 20 years. Then made friends with some expat South African Kyokushin guys about 8 years ago who encouraged him to train for his black belt, which he duly got, in exchange for teaching them some groundwork, etc. He got into kicking because as a pro/am kickboxer in the early 1980s they weren't allowed to kick below the waist. He modelled most of his kicking game on Bill Wallace.

Ah! Then see you are not the person I have been talking about! I've been talking about those guys that actually say they are doing Wing Chun and then get all offended when you point out that they aren't really using much of their Wing Chun when they spar!

Perhaps, though disagreeing with you doesn't necessarily mean they are getting offended. I think you give yourself a bit too much credit for your ability to upset people enough to make them think. Sort of like Terence.

Nothing wrong with that! So would you agree with several here that Wing Chun in and of itself is not good enough as a stand-alone art in today's sparring/fighting environment?

I have deeply explored two martial arts, Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu, and gone a fair way down the rabbit holes of several more. I think my actions speak for themselves in that regard.

I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or a slam.

Up to you, bro.

TN was very good at making his point and then sticking to it and arguing it very logically. But we certainly got people thinking and posting! I

True, I guess. He also couldn't shut up after making his point and had to keep making it over and over. And over. He would also create straw men out of what other people were staying and them relentlessly reduce the straw men to their constituent subatomic particles and then still keep going until he hit the Planck length limit. I'm not saying your doing that ... but the thread is still going and anything is possible.

-Another interesting point that has emerged is this whole idea that you can be doing Wing Chun if you are using the principles of Wing Chun, and you don't have to actually use the core mechanics and structure. And that JKD is still actually Wing Chun for that reason. Do you agree with that Andrew?

I might if I had a firm idea of what it actually meant. As I said earlier, I believe effective mechanics and structure largely transcend style. JKD is probably more accepting of this than Wing Chun. "No way as way," and all that.

 

[anerlich]

I've never been a believer in being able to switch from one style to another in a fight, and say I'm using this style now this style. In example Wing Chun to Kali or Wing Chun to wrestling.

You need to be able to create coherent transitions from one to the other not present in the art to begin with. So in essence you are creating a hybrid art & not really switching from one to the other.

One of the reasons MMA works so well is because transitions are created for the person to switch from striking to kicking to throwing to grappling smoothly.

I train multiple arts, but I train each art separately. I used to train MMA for a couple of years, but IMO the requirements of MMA are different enough from pure striking and pure grappling to require it to be trained as yet another separate art. You can't train say, Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu separately and expect to do well in MMA. you need separate sessions to develop mixed skills.

Personally I'm more interested in becoming good at my two separate arts than being able to blend them. If anyone disagrees with that choice, I don't care.

 

[Nobody Important]

I train multiple arts, but I train each art separately. I used to train MMA for a couple of years, but IMO the requirements of MMA are different enough from pure striking and pure grappling to require it to be trained as yet another separate art. You can't train say, Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu separately and expect to do well in MMA. you need separate sessions to develop mixed skills.

Personally I'm more interested in becoming good at my two separate arts than being able to blend them. If anyone disagrees with that choice, I don't care.

I agree, there has to be cohesion especially in transitions from method to method. MMA is a product of blended methods that requires it's own unique training format. I'm not saying people can't utilize a technique or two from another art & be successful in pulling it off. But like you said, to train separately & be successful is unlikely, something is needed to link the two methods successfully. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is your journey, not someone else's opinion of what they believe is proper.

 

[Juany118]

No, what I'm saying is that they have created a hybrid. It is no longer one or the other. To make it effective, coherent transitioning from one method to another is needed to be able to switch back & forth without causing conflicting movements. This creates a whole new art IMO. Because of the transitions, mechanics & strategy will change.

MMA is clearly a hybrid. It has a unified structure (for lack of a better term) regardless of what striking techniques you use. I am referring to, if you dance from one art to another in terms of techniques AND structure you aren't using a hybrid imo, you are simply using two tools. So a hybrid is sorta like this dagger/gun

Where as what I am talking about is like using this...

pulling out this

What I do is similar to @anerlich . I train WC and Kali as separate arts. Heck I have to test in WC over an hour from my school at the Mother School in front of a panel that includes people who I will only ever see on test day. This was part of the deal with Grand Master Cheung to make sure that what gets taught at the school does go from separate WC and separate Kali to hybrid. So when I say "go Kali mode on an armed person" I mean Kali mode. I pretty much reserve Kali for specific things.
1. unarmed dealing with armed.
2. I am armed
3. I am on the ground (it has ground fighting and training for transitions to and from).
4. I need to control/lock (more Chin Na in Kali imo)

If I am in a straight up striking fight, it's WC. The thing is that, whether by coincidence or design (since my Kali is basically an FMA version of JKD made by Dan Inosanto) the structure of Kali is the same as WC, ultimately all I am really doing is using the techniques taught in the above 4 categories from the exact same WC structure. So transitioning isn't difficult.

 

[Juany118]

....."because Wing Chun doesn't work well in sparring!"

I think we more got that most WC schools don't actually put people under real pressure so when they do actually "really" spar they can fall apart. That isn't a problem with it he art, it's a problem with how the student is trained. Even you admitted that Sifu Jerry was keeping what you consider proper structure and that was a bit more than just "sparring" as well.

---Another interesting point that has emerged is this whole idea that you can be doing Wing Chun if you are using the principles of Wing Chun, and you don't have to actually use the core mechanics and structure. And that JKD is still actually Wing Chun for that reason. Do you agree with that Andrew?

That isn't what I said. JKD concepts, according to Guro Dan himself, uses not just WC principles BUT also structure etc at close range, they then change their structure when they go out to kicking range. That, at least as Guro Dan was taught by Lee, is what JKD is about, there is no single structure, so in close you are WC, out at kicking range maybe a fencing structure side on to get more extension for a kick...bridge back in to close range it is WC again. That is why I referred to it as a defacto modified WC, that Guro Dan simply says (paraphrase) "the core is WC, you need WC to learn JKD."

Of course if you want to debate with Dan Inosanto about whether he actually knows what he is talking about . Me I will just nod and say "yes Guro Dan.". He probably has forgotten more about martial arts than many of the people in this conversation, especially me, will know.

 

[Nobody Important]

MMA is clearly a hybrid. It has a unified structure (for lack of a better term) regardless of what striking techniques you use. I am referring to, if you dance from one art to another in terms of techniques AND structure you aren't using a hybrid imo, you are simply using two tools. So a hybrid is sorta like this dagger/gun

Where as what I am talking about is like using this...

pulling out this

What I do is similar to @anerlich . I train WC and Kali as separate arts. Heck I have to test in WC over an hour from my school at the Mother School in front of a panel that includes people who I will only ever see on test day. This was part of the deal with Grand Master Cheung to make sure that what gets taught at the school does go from separate WC and separate Kali to hybrid. So when I say "go Kali mode on an armed person" I mean Kali mode. I pretty much reserve Kali for specific things.
1. unarmed dealing with armed.
2. I am armed
3. I am on the ground (it has ground fighting and training for transitions to and from).
4. I need to control/lock (more Chin Na in Kali imo)

If I am in a straight up striking fight, it's WC. The thing is that, whether by coincidence or design (since my Kali is basically an FMA version of JKD made by Dan Inosanto) the structure of Kali is the same as WC, ultimately all I am really doing is using the techniques taught in the above 4 categories from the exact same WC structure. So transitioning isn't difficult.

Seems overly complicated to me, but if it works for you that's all that matters.

 

[Juany118]

Seems overly complicated to me, but if it works for you that's all that matters.

Well it might be if I learned one of the other versions of FMA and not L-I K but I don't exaggerate when I say the structure, even many of the unarmed techniques are similar. The only real differences are the ones I numbered and the additional defang the snake mindset. /Shrug.

 

[KPM]

I think we more got that most WC schools don't actually put people under real pressure so when they do actually "really" spar they can fall apart.

---Yes. That's one of the conclusions. But that was not what I was referring to. Like I said, you need to go back and read "nobody important's" post.



That isn't what I said. JKD concepts, according to Guro Dan himself, uses not just WC principles BUT also structure etc at close range, they then change their structure when they go out to kicking range.

---But if you watch what Guru Dan is actually doing...when he is talking about Wing Chun structure he means using techniques like Bong, Tan, etc. When you watch his example of JKD at the end of the video clip, the guy is NOT using a Wing Chun structure.


. That is why I referred to it as a defacto modified WC, that Guro Dan simply says (paraphrase) "the core is WC, you need WC to learn JKD."

---I don't think that Guru Dan would agree with you that JKD is just a modified WC. He is saying you need to learn WC to understand the root from which JKD comes and how Wing Chun was adapted and changed to become JKD. Learning "classic" Wing Chun gives a student a good foundation and teaches the basic Wing Chun techniques that have become a part of JKD....like Bong, Tan, etc. It also gives the student a sense of their history and roots. Again, if you watch the demo at the end of the clip the guy is not using Wing Chun mechanics.

 

[Juany118]

I think we more got that most WC schools don't actually put people under real pressure so when they do actually "really" spar they can fall apart.

---Yes. That's one of the conclusions. But that was not what I was referring to. Like I said, you need to go back and read "nobody important's" post.



That isn't what I said. JKD concepts, according to Guro Dan himself, uses not just WC principles BUT also structure etc at close range, they then change their structure when they go out to kicking range.

---But if you watch what Guru Dan is actually doing...when he is talking about Wing Chun structure he means using techniques like Bong, Tan, etc. When you watch his example of JKD at the end of the video clip, the guy is NOT using a Wing Chun structure.


. That is why I referred to it as a defacto modified WC, that Guro Dan simply says (paraphrase) "the core is WC, you need WC to learn JKD."

---I don't think that Guru Dan would agree with you that JKD is just a modified WC. He is saying you need to learn WC to understand the root from which JKD comes and how Wing Chun was adapted and changed to become JKD. Learning "classic" Wing Chun gives a student a good foundation and teaches the basic Wing Chun techniques that have become a part of JKD....like Bong, Tan, etc. It also gives the student a sense of their history and roots. Again, if you watch the demo at the end of the clip the guy is not using Wing Chun mechanics.

On the last bit I am sure he would not use that term, that is my cliff notes term, based on his language and his demonstration, and the student at the dummy (not when the student is transitioning back and forth between ranges) rather than go into his 20 minute explanation divided by Donnie Yen videos

As for your first point I base my responses on my argument. 1. Not training under real pressure and 2. Never knowing what is really going on based on an anonymously posted YouTube video.

I have been told the following as well. I do not have the knowledge to be able to say if the following is true or a cop out, this is just food for thought.

Many other CMAs use the stances and picture perfect structures for training. I don't know if you have ever gone to a CMA tournament but when you look at the people who do the demonstrations picture perfect, but then participate in Lei Tai later, there is a huge difference in the appearance. Time and again. I have heard Sifus say "the structures in forms are designed to teach principles, proper balance, forward intent, proper grounding for attack and defense etc they aren't there to be used in "real combat". Like I said I don't know if the above is correct or not, I am no Sifu by a long shot, this was just food for thought.

 

[geezer]

....I am no Sifu by a long shot, this was just food for thought.

Give it time. You curiosity of a scientist and the have the soul of a teacher!

 

[Phobius]

So what is your definition of Wing Chun?

My definition of Wing Chun is the principles, mechanics and method of training. Including weapon forms. I believe it to be a system where you with time learn to control your environment to such a degree where for instance bobbing and weaving would be pointless. I also believe that WC like any other system is a matter of learning and evolving your own style as you get better.

Lets say you fight, initially you bob and weave as well as utilize footwork to avoid being hit. You train WC every day, after a few years you can control your environment and your opponent well enough to not need to "dodge" any incoming punch. (Yes there are movements to deflect, I know, and these will improve. But try in sparring to deflect each punch coming in without making sure you are not standing in its path would be fatal)

Now give it even more years and you start becoming a master, not requiring to move at all because your opponent is really not able to match your skill level. Those that can are too busy training at their own club or some other art. If you do meet you have things to talk about and no time to ever go face to face, leaving it for the younger generations.

What I do not believe is you learn WC, get your grade and now you can control everything. When you fail you get punched and lose but its your own fault.

I pointed out that some people claim to be doing Wing Chun and end up doing some version of "sloppy kickboxing" when sparring. They seem to abandon all or most of their Wing Chun mechanics and structure under pressure and then get all offended when you point that out to them. And multiple people have proven this here by getting all offended when I pointed that out!

This is a statement that is unclear. First you express a personal opinion and saying people abandon their WC mechanics and structure because it does not look like forms and drills. Calling things sloppy kickboxing and providing videos that does not give the expression of sloppy kickboxing but rather mixed styles, inexperienced practitioner... it does give the impression that you expect WC to look like an application drill and since I personally see WC as being a boxing style with the mechanics of a superior close range game. (Not grappling)

Sadly the whole close game has become the entire style for most people and without proper long range any grappler just take you to the ground because there is little fear in going past your guard.

.....as things like bending forward at the waist bobbing and weaving

Bobbing and weaving if done properly can and will maintain proper structure. This is what you practise if doing SLT among other things, and no I do not care to elaborate on this. Do I however believe we should bob and weave? No, especially not if it can be avoided... the goal is to not do it. But I do not believe WC to be a program that has a graduation at a select point and then you can fight without worries. Use footwork to get out of the way, but knowing bob and weave is crucial. How to not be in the way of a punch.

If we could say "train 6 years and then you will never have to....." that would be great. World to me does not work like that.

swinging from the shoulders with wide loopy punches, punching with the elbows all flared out instead of keeping them in

These to me are most often symptoms of fatigue or frustration. It has nothing to do with being badly trained or bad teacher but more on being inexperienced or having problem keeping your mind under control. Perhaps a personal trait that makes it harder for you to remain calm in certain scenarios.

Once again this is not remedied by training different. It is remedied by being made aware and working in same environment to learn control by moving ahead slowly. Increasing speed and power perhaps during sparring. There are different ways of doing it.

bouncing around on the toes, etc.

I do not see how this relates to kickboxing. This is more like not having a realistic approach to training I believe. Could of course be wrong. Perhaps it is a teaching flaw, or a goal of the club to be more focused towards specific competition rules.

If that's not you, then why are you so offended???

I do not get offended. Maybe frustrated with myself if I feel my time writing something was a waste of time better spent elsewhere. That is not yet the case here.

I've also said that Wing Chun mechanics allows plenty of room for some adaptation and variation without resorting to what I described above. One of my points was that we have forms and drills for a reason. These teach core Wing Chun mechanics and structure...how to send and receive force in a "Wing Chun way".....how to move like Wing Chun.

And I say that we do not move like the forms when sparring, nor do we look like chi-sao session. Most application drills are for clear and well "pronounced" movement during training which will be done on a target that sometimes offers little resistance but more importantly has no random intent of shifting to a different approach. In sparring movements are not gonna be so clear, and movements will change as the opponent does.

And I believe in the long range game to be present as well.

And so if you are using those core Wing Chun mechanics and structure that dictate how a Wing Chun guy moves, how can it NOT look somewhat like Wing Chun???? How can it NOT be recognizable as Wing Chun....just as kickboxing is recognizable as kickboxing, western boxing is recognizable as western boxing, and Judo is recognizable as Judo?

Just because you do not recognize it does not mean others dont. This is the point I am disagreeing with the most. Your opinion does not dictate a truth and as such the entire discussion is flawed.

You have a specific view of Wing Chun and then wish to argue as if it should be a clear truth that if you do not recognize it as WC it is not WC.

Besides, seeing movements, mechanics and structure is a lot harder than identifying techniques. So just because we do not see techniques in applications as drilled that does not mean that the movements are not there, constantly shifting for every split of a second because the game is constantly changing.

I do not believe in techniques as much as natural movements that embodies the structure and mechanics of WC. This means that I do not expect to see clear techniques but rather the concepts of the fighting. As for sparring I can not see those concepts easily all the time because it depends on what the practitioner wishes to focus his/her sparring on. After all sparring is a tool to train specific areas, not to just "learn to fight".

So I expect WC to look similar to chinese boxing as a vague term, but I do not expect to see certain clear violations such as flaring elbows. Of course I still expect to see these due to mental reasons and if such expect more sparring sessions to remedy such errors.

You see, it is an evolving process. Learn by doing.

One of the conclusions expressed here is that Wing Chun doesn't function so well as a stand alone art and should be used to augment other things. Maybe that's true. It is a valid opinion.

Once more this is not a conclusion, it is an opinion or a suggestion.

Personally I still consider the discussion flawed, similar to any discussion if filming a guy doing an application drill terribly and then say "Is this guy really training WC?" Not meaning anything bad towards you KPM. Just stating an opinion as you asked about the topic itself.

Of course all my wall of text above is based on one thing that is a core belief of mine. We are not a system, we as fighters have our style which is influenced by any and all systems we train but also by our own personalities.

We can never have a style that is a system, just like two practitioners of the same art will never fight identically.

 

[KPM]

So what do you guys think of this clip?

Or this one? He flows well and looks good. But is this "classical" Wing Chun? Or a mix of Wing Chun and a lot of western boxing mechanics?

How about this one? Is bending forward at the waist and breaking your vertical axis part of good Wing Chun mechanics?

I don't mean to pick on Sifu Phillips. But I remembered that he has actually produced a DVD on Wing Chun sparring and what I saw didn't exactly stick with Wing Chun entirely.

 

[Nobody Important]

KPM wrote - "How about this one? Is bending forward at the waist and breaking your vertical axis part of good Wing Chun mechanics?"

I'll play devil's advocate now. What makes you think that it's not a part of good Wing Chun? Many branches perform waist bending in the Biu Jee form. In the beginning with the elbows & at the end with the "life saving" technique. Why could these principles not be applied to bobbing & weaving tactics? Look at Yuen family, Pao Fa Lian, Yiu Choi, Cho family and Pan Nam styles for examples of waist bending. Isn't Biu Jee supposed to teach you how to recover once compromised?

 

[KPM]

KPM wrote - "How about this one? Is bending forward at the waist and breaking your vertical axis part of good Wing Chun mechanics?"

I'll play devil's advocate now. What makes you think that it's not a part of good Wing Chun? Many branches perform waist bending in the Biu Jee form. In the beginning with the elbows & at the end with the "life saving" technique. Why could these principles not be applied to bobbing & weaving tactics? Look at Yuen family, Pao Fa Lian, Yiu Choi, Cho family and Pan Nam styles for examples of waist bending. Isn't Biu Jee supposed to teach you how to recover once compromised?

Correct! And I was taught that Bui Gee contains a lot of the "exceptions to the rules"....things you do in extenuating circumstances....things you do when you are put into a bad situation.....departures from the norm. It does not contain things that would be consider standard basic practice. What I see Sifu Phillips doing is moving that way as part of his standard basic practice.

 

[Vajramusti]

Does this thread have a clear point?

 

[KPM]

^^^Like most long threads, the topic tends to wander and drift a bit. But my guess is that you haven't read the whole thing anyway.

 

[Juany118]

KPM wrote - "How about this one? Is bending forward at the waist and breaking your vertical axis part of good Wing Chun mechanics?"

I'll play devil's advocate now. What makes you think that it's not a part of good Wing Chun? Many branches perform waist bending in the Biu Jee form. In the beginning with the elbows & at the end with the "life saving" technique. Why could these principles not be applied to bobbing & weaving tactics? Look at Yuen family, Pao Fa Lian, Yiu Choi, Cho family and Pan Nam styles for examples of waist bending. Isn't Biu Jee supposed to teach you how to recover once compromised?

This in part is why I put up the video of both Sifu Jerry and TWC's Chum Kiu. Many WC practitioners would say that not only are the high kicks not "WC" and then the fact the footwork is clearly "stepping" and using the balls of your feet vs sliding/shuffling isn't WC either.

I have also spoken with more than a person who actually had the honor of conversing with Wong Shun Leung. He told me that during this conversation he was told the forms are essentially taught backwards. So looking at your comments regarding the Biu Jee form, it would make perfect sense. The new student needs those "oh crap life saving" techniques when you are getting jammed up by an opponent. In essence Biu Jee is for when you are losing where as SLT and CK are for when you are "really" fighting.

 

[Nobody Important]

This in part is why I put up the video of both Sifu Jerry and TWC's Chum Kiu. Many WC practitioners would say that not only are the high kicks not "WC" and then the fact the footwork is clearly "stepping" and using the balls of your feet vs sliding/shuffling isn't WC either.

I have also spoken with more than a person who actually had the honor of conversing with Wong Shun Leung. He told me that during this conversation he was told the forms are essentially taught backwards. So looking at your comments regarding the Biu Jee form, it would make perfect sense. The new student needs those "oh crap life saving" techniques when you are getting jammed up by an opponent. In essence Biu Jee is for when you are losing where as SLT and CK are for when you are "really" fighting.

I've heard the same thing & would have to agree. The forms, progression wise, make more sense backwards. Long to short. White Crane & styles like Uechi Ryu & Goju Ryu, say that Sanchin is the beginning and end of their arts. Siu Lim Tau is the beginning & end of Wing Chun.