Wing Chun Boxing

[KPM]

Everything you said here below can be done with VT strategy and tactics, with exception of extended punches we don't want to throw and potentially have expose us, unless necessary.

----Please explain how Wing Chun would conduct the fight entirely from long range without ever closing to "chi sau" range/close range. Better yet, please post a video of a WSLVT guy doing this very thing, as I did of boxers doing this.


This says much of the same thing I already outlined in my post you refuse to look at.

----Hard to believe that you are so lazy or so smug that you can't be bothered to restate or summarize your other post or even cut and paste it here for the benefit of those following this discussion so it can be considered in the context of the rest of this discussion.



VT has methods of recovering to the outside when necessary. It has methods of controlling distance at long range, keeping the opponent at bay, using evasive footwork, then baiting and drawing them into overextension and errors that we can capitalize on. We can stay out and finish with kicks at long-range, too, or use that to open them up for finishing punches. All VT. No need to resort to WB.

----Then please illustrate that, because I don't believe you. WB is designed to work in a way that VT does not. All those things you mentioned are highly developed in WB, and from what I've seen only rudimentary in VT. So the burden of proof is on you. Post the video. If you can't find one, make one.


You posted links to an article in this thread. Why don't you copy the whole thing here, too?

---I posted a link, and then videos that supported what I was saying. The videos were the important part. People could choose to follow the link or not. Where are your videos supporting what you are saying???


Also, this is not KPMartialtalk.com. Don't tell me where and what I can post.

---Then stop being such a XXXXX and actually contribute to the discussion!

If you don't like it, you need not talk to me.

---If you do't like it, then there is no need for you to post on the threads that I start and try and turn each of them into a huge pointless argument. Please go elsewhere! Better yet, start your own thread for discussion! Oh wait....you never do that.

 

[LFJ]

----Please explain how Wing Chun would conduct the fight entirely from long range without ever closing to "chi sau" range/close range.

That is not the goal of VT. You wouldn't just choose to do that.
Doesn't mean we have no long-range strategy or tactics.

It would be stupid not to, because that is a range that commonly needs to be dealt with in standup fighting.

----Hard to believe that you are so lazy or so smug that you can't be bothered to restate or summarize your other post or even cut and paste it here for the benefit of those following this discussion so it can be considered in the context of the rest of this discussion.

Here is the link again. If you aren't too lazy or stubborn, just click on it and read.

----Then please illustrate that, because I don't believe you. WB is designed to work in a way that VT does not. All those things you mentioned are highly developed in WB, and from what I've seen only rudimentary in VT. So the burden of proof is on you. Post the video. If you can't find one, make one.

Burden of proof? lol

I don't care. I've explained enough. I'm not here to teach you VT.

Plus, as confrontational as you are being with me, you think I'd go out of my way to make an instructional video for you??

Where are your videos supporting what you are saying???

Not needed.

---If you do't like it, then there is no need for you to post on the threads that I start and try and turn each of them into a huge pointless argument. Please go elsewhere! Better yet, start your own thread for discussion! Oh wait....you never do that.

If you start KPMartialtalk.com I promise I won't register and comment on any of "your threads".

But this here is an open forum, so I will comment on whichever thread I please.

 

[Juany118]

Glad I started martial arts in a hybrid system and continue to cross train. And stay out stylistic purity arguments like this.

Agreed, I just come at that from a different angle. I studied other arts before and now study in a school where we bounce between studying TWC and Inosanto Kali. Doing all of that has shown me two things...
1. any single fighting style has holes/weaknesses, no matter how small.
2. if you have an open mind you can see how most fighting styles have a spot where they dovetail with another, sometimes seemingly opposite arts.

An example of number 2. One night one of my Sifu's used be as a demonstrator because I am good at kicking. I did a full speed round kick to the ribs, he did a fook sau in such a way that spun me and put me completely off balance. It was WC but it felt so much like the Aikido it blew my damn mind.

 

[Juany118]

Take all the gloves off.
In what manner does fighting evolve?

I think some of the evolution comes from mind set more so than technique. Example, some TMA schools can have rather rigid mind sets... "this is 'right', this is 'wrong'. Wrong means it is not WC at all" as an example. This is of course more a matter of how TMAs have been taught over the last 50 odd years because of the lack of actual combat use and/or formal "real" fighting/competition.

Because things like boxing, MMA, Krav Maga etc. do see such use and many I (though not all) of the teachers have some experience in real use there is a more open mind set that accepts that if it works, and adhere's to the core principles of the style, it is part of the style because what matters most is winning/survival.

Now there are some TMA instructors who also take the "modern" mindset BUT, in my experience at least, these instructors are the minority.

 

[Juany118]

VT has methods of recovering to the outside when necessary. It has methods of controlling distance at long range, keeping the opponent at bay, using evasive footwork, then baiting and drawing them into overextension and errors that we can capitalize on. We can stay out and finish with kicks at long-range, too, or use that to open them up for finishing punches. All VT. No need to resort to WB.

----Then please illustrate that, because I don't believe you. WB is designed to work in a way that VT does not. All those things you mentioned are highly developed in WB, and from what I've seen only rudimentary in VT. So the burden of proof is on you. Post the video. If you can't find one, make one.

Part of that confused me because the footwork, controlling distance etc, are essentially the "foundation" of not only Western Boxing but any combative system. That response makes it sound unique to WC. I also, don't see, how baiting someone into over extension is a "long game", its more making someone fall into your "short game."

That said I wonder how much of part of this debate is a matter of semantics. As an example, one can say they "baited" someone into creating an opening. If you are fighting a skilled opponent baiting, the way I am taught, isn't easy. However both the Kali and TWC I study are taught to me in the following way. It's not just about obtaining a dominant position and trying to dominate your opponent (though this is important), it's about flow.

Forget about the way I am taught, in my experience of violence a fight moves too fast for me to say "I will do X, this will bait him into doing Y and this will give me an opening for Z, Z.1, whatever." First I can never be sure he will do "Y", ergo I can't plan on a retaliatory measure. Every action does have a reaction but these reactions are most often unpredictable so what I need to do is truly be in the moment so I have awareness and sensitivity to what is happening and then flow into what ever reaction my action generated.

But the above is simply my perspective via the lens of my study. I say that I have allowed my opponent to show me where to strike, someone else may say "I baited him into providing that opening."

 

[Nobody Important]

A striking system with only close-range tactics that doesn't address how to get there either had that bit lost in transmission among people who don't fight, or it's a fantasy style created by people who don't fight.

Who says it's a striking art? You're entire argument is based on the premise that all systems of Wing Chun are. If thats the case you bring up valid points, but I view my system as a close range bridging art based on being grabbed. From my perspective your points aren't as valid and the rudimentary punching skills in Wing Chun require an altered approach to deal with closing the gap to intentionally get into that range.

 

[LFJ]

Who says it's a striking art? You're entire argument is based on the premise that all systems of Wing Chun are. If thats the case you bring up valid points, but I view my system as a close range bridging art based on being grabbed.

Just talking about YMVT, as the two examples given in this thread are incomplete YMVT being gap-filled with WB. YMVT is a striking style.

 

[LFJ]

Part of that confused me because the footwork, controlling distance etc, are essentially the "foundation" of not only Western Boxing but any combative system. That response makes it sound unique to WC.

Of course it isn't unique to VT, but KPM doesn't believe those are part of VT.

I also, don't see, how baiting someone into over extension is a "long game", its more making someone fall into your "short game."

Depends on how you deal with it. Is a kick to the gut "short game"?

That said I wonder how much of part of this debate is a matter of semantics. As an example, one can say they "baited" someone into creating an opening. If you are fighting a skilled opponent baiting, the way I am taught, isn't easy. However both the Kali and TWC I study are taught to me in the following way. It's not just about obtaining a dominant position and trying to dominate your opponent (though this is important), it's about flow.

Forget about the way I am taught, in my experience of violence a fight moves too fast for me to say "I will do X, this will bait him into doing Y and this will give me an opening for Z, Z.1, whatever." First I can never be sure he will do "Y", ergo I can't plan on a retaliatory measure. Every action does have a reaction but these reactions are most often unpredictable so what I need to do is truly be in the moment so I have awareness and sensitivity to what is happening and then flow into what ever reaction my action generated.

But the above is simply my perspective via the lens of my study. I say that I have allowed my opponent to show me where to strike, someone else may say "I baited him into providing that opening."

Baiting, drawing, and forcing counters are not uncommon, not even in pro Western Boxing.

Read this post and the linked article on the topic to understand more.

 

[KPM]

I don't care. I've explained enough. I'm not here to teach you VT.

.

Ok. Then please stop posting on my thread and trying to create pointless arguments.

 

[Nobody Important]

Just talking about YMVT, as the two examples given in this thread are incomplete YMVT being gap-filled with WB. YMVT is a striking style.

OK, that's fair enough. I wasn't aware of the context of the discussion being limited to YMVT exclusively.

 

[KPM]

That said I wonder how much of part of this debate is a matter of semantics.

---I have explained pretty clearly what having a "long range game" means. This is different than just having a "long range strategy" that allows you to get to close range quickly and safely. Yet LFJ turned around and said that everything I described for the "long range game" in boxing, WSLT does as well. So I don't know how he is defining his "semantics." But there it is!



Forget about the way I am taught, in my experience of violence a fight moves too fast for me to say "I will do X, this will bait him into doing Y and this will give me an opening for Z, Z.1, whatever." First I can never be sure he will do "Y", ergo I can't plan on a retaliatory measure.

----Good point! But maybe different in a sparring situation compared to a high adrenaline real self-defense encounter.

 

[KPM]

OK, that's fair enough. I wasn't aware of the context of the discussion being limited to YMVT exclusively.

It wasn't. But everything always comes down to "everything else" being substandard compared to YMVT (he actually means WSLVT) in LJF's mind.

 

[Martial D]

---I have explained pretty clearly what having a "long range game" means. This is different than just having a "long range strategy" that allows you to get to close range quickly and safely.

Indeed. The difference between being able to finish them at that range and not being able to.

Why develop strategy to get them elsewhere when you can instead learn to get them anywhere?

 

[KPM]

Now it seems to me that Wing Chun guys generally don't fare too well in sparring other styles simply because they lack a "long range game." So this is what Boxing can bring to Wing Chun to make it an effective modern fighting style....the long range game! Too many Wing Chun guys simply try to charge into close range so they can do the shorter Wing Chun punches and use Chi Sau-type applications. But if their opponent is good at maintaining range and actually has a "long range game", the Wing Chun guy can find it very difficult to "do his thing." He ends up eating heavy kicks and long punches. And in frustration he typically abandons any semblance of Wing Chun structure and technique and resorts to the only thing that will half-way function for him....a form of "sloppy kickboxing" until he can get to his preferred "close range" where he can start chain punching and trapping. Doesn't it seem like a much better approach to training for sparring to learn Boxing so you can do well at longer ranges until you get to the "Wing Chun range"???

I spent a good amount of time searching for Wing Chun sparring videos and I couldn't find a single one of a Wing Chun actually having any kind of success conducting his fight from long range. I'd say every video I watched had the Wing Chun essentially standing back and avoiding blows and then trying to charge into close range while taking minimum damage.

Here's a few of the videos that I found interesting or that illustrate what I'm talking about.


Here's a guy that can't figure out how to fight from long range. He keeps throwing his Wing Chun punches when they aren't even close enough to land! He can't seem to get into close range to use his Wing Chun hardly at all. And this match was in the "finals" of this tournament!!

These guys aren't doing too bad. But watch how they have no "long range game" at all. They simply step into close range and starting throwing punches!

Another guy with no "long range game" at all. Just charge in and start punching!

This is one of the better clips of a TWC guy sparring. He maintains good form and technique throughout. But again, he is essentially just charging into Wing Chun punching range. He isn't trying to fight from the outside or "long range" at all.

Here is an "International" Wing Chun sparring competition. Sanda rules. The fighting starts at 3:48. They are hardly even recognizable as Wing Chun! They should have done some boxing training prior to these bouts and they would have done much better!

Now here is some good "close range" sparring! But note that they don't even try to start at long range and then close the distance. They just step up and start going at it! However, this is a good example of what Wing Chun can bring to Boxing....all of this trapping and hitting at close range without clinching.

Gary Lam Wing Chun Kung Fu - Free Spar / Pressure Testing


Here are a couple of guys sparring. They don't call it "Wing Chun Boxing", but I would! They would probably both be doing much better if they actually spent time training the boxing structure they both end up resorting to when they spar.

Wing Chun Sparring

Here's a pretty good boxer using his "long range game" for some light sparring with his Wing Chun friend. You can see the Wing Chun guy never even got in close enough to land a punch and just ended up looking like crappy kickboxing.

Who Wins? Wing Chun vs Boxing Sparring


So I am reaching the conclusion that the best way to upgrade or "evolve" Wing Chun and make it more workable in a modern fighting/sparring context is to merge it with western Boxing. This will bring a great "long range game" to Wing Chun that is essential in a free-fighting context. And Wing Chun will bring to the mix the close range trapping and hitting work while avoiding the clinch. It will also make the boxing more "martial"......it will be a form of "martial boxing" rather than strictly sport boxing. The result, as Rackemann shows, will no longer be "just boxing" and will no longer be "classical" Wing Chun. It will be "Wing Chun Boxing."

 

[drop bear]

VT is designed to work in a way that WB does not.

It also doesn't have extra parts you can just throw out and still expect it to work. It doesn't have many parts to begin with.

The strategy and tactics form a highly integrated approach to fighting. If some elements are missing it no longer works.

If gap-filled, it also generally doesn't go well, unless the gap is the entire fighting strategy and method that gets transplanted, as with "Wing Chun Boxing".



Well, if you're starting from what you acknowledge is a non-functional system,
I guess anything you add to it that has been demonstrated to work would do it good.

Exept boxing is a pretty big concept. It incorporates a lot of different ideas. More like kung fu. It is an umbrella term. So when you say designed to work in a way that boxing doesnt. Boxing works by punching better than the other guy. How would VT differ in such a general concept?

If VT has these issues that it cant integrate or be integrated then again I dont understand why you are suggesting someone integrate it. You would pick a system that does integrate well with other systems.

If you are starting from a functional system adding things that work also helps.

 

[Martial D]

Now it seems to me that Wing Chun guys generally don't fare too well in sparring other styles simply because they lack a "long range game." So this is what Boxing can bring to Wing Chun to make it an effective modern fighting style....the long range game! Too many Wing Chun guys simply try to charge into close range so they can do the shorter Wing Chun punches and use Chi Sau-type applications. But if their opponent is good at maintaining range and actually has a "long range game", the Wing Chun guy can find it very difficult to "do his thing." He ends up eating heavy kicks and long punches. And in frustration he typically abandons any semblance of Wing Chun structure and technique and resorts to the only thing that will half-way function for him....a form of "sloppy kickboxing" until he can get to his preferred "close range" where he can start chain punching and trapping. Doesn't it seem like a much better approach to training for sparring to learn Boxing so you can do well at longer ranges until you get to the "Wing Chun range"???

I spent a good amount of time searching for Wing Chun sparring videos and I couldn't find a single one of a Wing Chun actually having any kind of success conducting his fight from long range. I'd say every video I watched had the Wing Chun essentially standing back and avoiding blows and then trying to charge into close range while taking minimum damage.

Here's a few of the videos that I found interesting or that illustrate what I'm talking about.


Here's a guy that can't figure out how to fight from long range. He keeps throwing his Wing Chun punches when they aren't even close enough to land! He can't seem to get into close range to use his Wing Chun hardly at all. And this match was in the "finals" of this tournament!!

These guys aren't doing too bad. But watch how they have no "long range game" at all. They simply step into close range and starting throwing punches!

Another guy with no "long range game" at all. Just charge in and start punching!

This is one of the better clips of a TWC guy sparring. He maintains good form and technique throughout. But again, he is essentially just charging into Wing Chun punching range. He isn't trying to fight from the outside or "long range" at all.

Here is an "International" Wing Chun sparring competition. Sanda rules. The fighting starts at 3:48. They are hardly even recognizable as Wing Chun! They should have done some boxing training prior to these bouts and they would have done much better!

Now here is some good "close range" sparring! But note that they don't even try to start at long range and then close the distance. They just step up and start going at it! However, this is a good example of what Wing Chun can bring to Boxing....all of this trapping and hitting at close range without clinching.

Gary Lam Wing Chun Kung Fu - Free Spar / Pressure Testing


Here are a couple of guys sparring. They don't call it "Wing Chun Boxing", but I would! They would probably both be doing much better if they actually spent time training the boxing structure they both end up resorting to when they spar.

Wing Chun Sparring

Here's a pretty good boxer using his "long range game" for some light sparring with his Wing Chun friend. You can see the Wing Chun guy never even got in close enough to land a punch and just ended up looking like crappy kickboxing.

Who Wins? Wing Chun vs Boxing Sparring


So I am reaching the conclusion that the best way to upgrade or "evolve" Wing Chun and make it more workable in a modern fighting/sparring context is to merge it with western Boxing. This will bring a great "long range game" to Wing Chun that is essential in a free-fighting context. And Wing Chun will bring to the mix the close range trapping and hitting work while avoiding the clinch. It will also make the boxing more "martial"......it will be a form of "martial boxing" rather than strictly sport boxing. The result, as Rackemann shows, will no longer be "just boxing" and will no longer be "classical" Wing Chun. It will be "Wing Chun Boxing."

If I need to remove a screw, a screwdriver is an elegant tool I would not want to be without.

Sometimes you need to remove a nail.

 

[Nobody Important]

It wasn't. But everything always comes down to "everything else" being substandard compared to YMVT (he actually means WSLVT) in LJF's mind.

Just to chum the waters a bit. Wasn't WSL a boxer prior to learning Wing Chun? Isn't it possible that he recognized a deficiency in the method and corrected it by modifying it based on knowledge and experience of WB? Who would be the wiser if he did? Especially if the modification occurred after Yip Man passed, there would be very few who could confirm or deny any alterations.

 

[LFJ]

It wasn't. But everything always comes down to "everything else" being substandard compared to YMVT (he actually means WSLVT) in LJF's mind.

How so, if all I was talking about is YMVT?

You gave no example of non-YM WC being mixed with boxing.

Doesn't it seem like a much better approach to training for sparring to learn Boxing so you can do well at longer ranges until you get to the "Wing Chun range"???

Since you did a good job showing that most WC doesn't work, even at close range, I think the better approach would be to just learn WB.

The only one you thought did neat WC stuff at close range was the GLWC "free sparring", but it was actually one guy feeding 2 or 3 straight punches then pausing for the other guy to do his tricks. That was "pressure testing"...

I think most boxers would know better than to want to add WC stuff to what they do. It would just mess up their already functional methods more than anything.

 

[LFJ]

Exept boxing is a pretty big concept. It incorporates a lot of different ideas. More like kung fu. It is an umbrella term. So when you say designed to work in a way that boxing doesnt. Boxing works by punching better than the other guy. How would VT differ in such a general concept?

Right. Boxing is a set of rules with many different ring approaches.

VT doesn't function under the ruleset and none of those approaches resemble VT in specific strategy or tactics.

If VT has these issues that it cant integrate or be integrated then again I dont understand why you are suggesting someone integrate it. You would pick a system that does integrate well with other systems.

If you are starting from a functional system adding things that work also helps.

I have never suggested it should be integrated.

The thing is, if I want to start doing WB in a fight, I have to abandon the VT strategy and tactics, and vice versa.

Starting from a functional standup striking system, what would help is adding ground fighting like BJJ, but not another contradictory standup style.

The only way you can mix WB and WC is if you only look at superficial techniques and not the overall approach to the fight, then use WC techniques in your WB strategy, which is what the guy in the OP has done by figuring out how WB uses similar techniques, and then just copying that...

So, in the end, the WC elements are indistinguishable from the boxing that already existed. It's just boxing.

 

[LFJ]

Just to chum the waters a bit. Wasn't WSL a boxer prior to learning Wing Chun? Isn't it possible that he recognized a deficiency in the method and corrected it by modifying it based on knowledge and experience of WB? Who would be the wiser if he did? Especially if the modification occurred after Yip Man passed, there would be very few who could confirm or deny any alterations.

lol You know KPM will love this! Anything to save face for other YM lineages.

WSL wasn't just a boxer who ended up doing VT later. He gave up boxing in favor of VT.

The elements of the VT method when outside of close range is already present in the system, on the dummy for example. Nothing needs to be added or modified.

But, most don't recognize it because they never learned the free fighting aspect of VT, or the abstract concepts behind the training method. Instead, they see the dummy as a three-armed human, or a two-armed guy who's just happy to see you, and do a choreographed fight with him.

Plus, the long-range elements are unlike WB in specific strategy and tactics, and it takes things like kicking into consideration. It might make better sense if you said WSL was a Muay Thai fighter and modified his VT based on his knowledge of MT. But, even then, the VT training system is the same as it was before him.