Wing Chun Boxing

[KPM]

Right.

Not a single leg kick was thrown that day...

Most likely because it was against the rules they had agreed upon because boxers can't handle leg kicks, which was my point exactly.

This was no answer to numerous videos of pro boxers getting their legs destroyed.

Give me a good boxer and within a few lessons I can have him very confidently defending against kicks. All it takes is a little exposure and "flight time." To assume that boxing can't deal with kicks because there is something wrong with their fighting structure is simply wrong. A kickboxer that has never had to deal with grapplers will get taken down regularly. But give that guy some exposure to takedowns and "flight time" to work a defense against them and he will do much better. He doesn't have to be a grappler himself. The same would go for a Wing Chun guy that steps into the ring against a grappler if he himself has never been exposed to grappling and has never worked a defense against a takedown. Or a Wing Chun guy that steps into the ring against a good kicker when he himself has never sparred with anyone other than another Wing Chun guy. He is going to "get his legs destroyed" just as easily as the boxer.

 

[LFJ]

To assume that boxing can't deal with kicks because there is something wrong with their fighting structure is simply wrong.

So, what are you going to teach in a few lessons to defend against leg kicks without changing foot placement and weighting in stance, or the footwork, power generation methods, and fight strategy, all of which leave the lead leg very exposed to leg kicks?

a Wing Chun guy that steps into the ring against a good kicker when he himself has never sparred with anyone other than another Wing Chun guy. He is going to "get his legs destroyed" just as easily as the boxer.

Correct. Unfortunately, adding Western Boxing for the "long-range game" isn't going to remedy this, because WB faces the same problem.

 

[geezer]

Interesting. None of that stuff is even mine.

DB wasn't talking specifically to you, LFJ. You haven't even been around for a while. He was addressing the whole idea of emphasizing centerline defense and not adequately protecting against hooking attacks coming in from the sides.

And he pointed out that these kind of attacks are hard to see coming. Also, I'd add that since they, like most attacks, are delivered from a disengaged position, so you can't feel them coming until they are too close to defend if you are obsessed with guarding center. In otherwords, you can't "chi-sau" your way out of danger!

This --i.e. the hooking attack-- is a real problem for any fighter, and especially for a lot of WC/VT/WT people. Maybe not you though.

 

[geezer]

To add a bit on my previous post, I'd like to say that I believe good WC/VT does have valid strategies to deal with hooking attacks. But they demand being able to control and modify that theoretically based obsession with guarding centerline and understanding that no system is 100% effective for everyone, all the time. Nobody works with hooks more than boxers, and they still knock each other out all with them ...a lot!

Maybe I just mis-read him, but sometimes I think LFJ really believes that his VT system is exempt from what I stated in italics above.

 

[Flying Crane]

No. Nothing particularly amazing. But it was pretty obvious that you didn't watch enough of the clip to be able to pass judgement on it and reach the conclusions that you reached. Because your conclusions were just wrong. But you stated them so confidently!

Ok, if you are content and satisfied with your assessment, then go with it.

I feel you are missing some things, but that's my assessment. If you already have the answers you want, I'll step away.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nobody works with hooks more than boxers, and they still knock each other out all with them ...a lot!

It can be fun to have the following match.

- 1st guy can only use jab and cross.
- 2nd guy can only use left/right hook.

3 minute a round, 15 rounds, and get the final record.

 

[wckf92]

It can be fun to have the following match.

- 1st guy can only use jab and cross.
- 2nd guy can only use left/right hook.

3 minute a round, 15 rounds, and get the final record.

I agree...would be fun...however technically and/or theoretically, neither of them should land any blows if they both are rhino guard adepts!

On a serious note though...that sort of drilling can teach one a lot about their perceived skill set. But 45 minutes is a long time!

 

[drop bear]

Interesting. None of that stuff is even mine.

Correct. And that is the point. It is just a different mechanic at speed to what people are used to.

And so people get a false feedback.

Which is why at speed fights look the way they look. Regardless of the style.

 

[KPM]

So, what are you going to teach in a few lessons to defend against leg kicks without changing foot placement and weighting in stance, or the footwork, power generation methods, and fight strategy, all of which leave the lead leg very exposed to leg kicks?

----Of course the strategy will have to change a bit. But weighting in the stance is dynamic in boxing....not all back on one leg like some Wing Chun guys. And boxing footwork is already very dynamic and suitable for evading kicks. And after all, kickboxing structure and power generation methods aren't that different from regular boxing and they deal with kicks all the time. So no, the boxing method doesn't have to change that much to deal with kicks. Its mainly just a matter of being used to seeing them coming and knowing what to do. Easy enough to teach a boxer.

 

[KPM]

DB wasn't talking specifically to you, LFJ. You haven't even been around for a while. He was addressing the whole idea of emphasizing centerline defense and not adequately protecting against hooking attacks coming in from the sides.

And he pointed out that these kind of attacks are hard to see coming. Also, I'd add that since they, like most attacks, are delivered from a disengaged position, so you can't feel them coming until they are too close to defend if you are obsessed with guarding center. In otherwords, you can't "chi-sau" your way out of danger!

This --i.e. the hooking attack-- is a real problem for any fighter, and especially for a lot of WC/VT/WT people. Maybe not you though.

One thing that ring competition has illustrated very well in the world of fighting.....when punches can come at multiple angles that are hard to see and hard to predict, it is much more efficient and effective to cover up and "weather the storm" than it is to try and block each punch. I think this is one of the main reasons so many styles just look like poor kickboxing when they are sparring under any real pressure. Their blocking methods just simply break down and they have to resort to "covering up" or they will be eating punches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the boxing method doesn't have to change that much to deal with kicks. Its mainly just a matter of being used to seeing them coming and knowing what to do. Easy enough to teach a boxer.

A foot sweep followed by a leading arm jam may put a boxer into an area that he is not familiar with.

 

[drop bear]

Here you go guys a better video rendition of the above footage ...........

I 100 percent agree with your opinion as factual input.

Wandelie was just asking for that to happen it was so obvious to me any way.

Wanderlei was in a tense defensive guard position and opened up a little as he approached the center, rather than a more defensive centered side stance providing room to shuffle backward or move to the side and parry through or out of the centerline.

Its a common mistake in my opinion with fighters that just walk up and expect to KO someone, you see this clearly as Victor steps back and blasts forward perfect Wing Chun tactic in Victor's favor but poorly executed for Wanderlie.

Sometimes it works I agree where timing is on your side, but you are framing someone squarely just a plain target to blast through and thats what happened.

Going by Victors intent with arms up I would have thrown a fake straight lead jab up high crossing his line of sight from a side position and gone straight down to the legs for a take down since he has upper arm strength. and would have won that one.

Sadly he has done just that in other fights but here he got it all wrong.

Again all about reading the fight, but you can see the intents they both had.

Good fights or sparring employ good framework good use of footwork in and out the boxing range good kicks to gauge range and hurt the knees or wear doe the opponent.

So much to discuss its all about good sparring sessions though and then going back analyze them and correct the mistakes perfect what is necessary, rather than blindly just doing something with no content or expression of understanding.

That was a good video to illustrate the straight blast, perfect!

How a straight blast should be done. Unfortunately not how it is often taught.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How a straight blast should be done. Unfortunately not how it is often taught.

Agree! The issue is most of the MA emphasizes too much on the static punch and not enough on the dynamic punch.

When you do static punch, your back leg stay on the ground. You are not moving forward.

When you do dynamic punch, your both legs are moving forward.

 

[drop bear]

Agree! The issue is most of the MA emphasizes too much on the static punch and not enough on the dynamic punch.

When you do static punch, your back leg stay on the ground. You are not moving forward.

When you do dynamic punch, your both legs are moving forward.

The punch worked because he initially went backwards making it easier and more effective to bridge the gap.

These sort of footwork concepts are what separates the ability to fight from just running after people getting picked off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

These sort of footwork concepts are what separates the ability to fight from just running after people getting picked off.

Did Victor Belfort do it by accident, or did he train this drill daily?

This is why it's important to train:

- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 steps 1 punch.

Many MA systems don't train these.

The interest question is, if these kind of training does not exist in your MA system and your teacher has never taught you these kind of training, will you be able to figure it out all by yourself?

I had trained "1 step 3 punches" since I was 11. One day I figured out, if I can train "1 step 3 punches", may be I should also train:

- 1 step 2 punches,
- 1 step 1 punch,
- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 step 1 punch.

Until when I was 14, I trained the long fist "Tan Tui" and "3rd road Pao Chuan", I then realized that "3 steps 1 punch" does exist and I did not create it myself.

 

[LFJ]

----Of course the strategy will have to change a bit.

A lot.

But weighting in the stance is dynamic in boxing....not all back on one leg like some Wing Chun guys.

Weighting the lead leg is often the problem, which happens a lot.

And boxing footwork is already very dynamic and suitable for evading kicks.

When pro and amateur boxers fight low kickers, they get their legs destroyed, as numerous videos have shown.

And after all, kickboxing structure and power generation methods aren't that different from regular boxing and they deal with kicks all the time.

Kickboxing methods had to change when it faced leg kicks, because it was previously not allowed, which left much of the same vulnerabilities boxers have.

So no, the boxing method doesn't have to change that much to deal with kicks. Its mainly just a matter of being used to seeing them coming and knowing what to do. Easy enough to teach a boxer.

So, what do you do without changing much? Build tougher legs?

 

[KPM]

A foot sweep followed by a leading arm jam may put a boxer into an area that he is not familiar with.

Sure. But once the boxer has seen that a couple of times, the foot sweeper is going to be eating a stiff rear punch as the boxer just lifts his leg to avoid the sweep and moves right in!

 

[KPM]

A lot.

---No, not really. Since the central strategy in boxing is to hit without being hit as much as possible....to land hard shots from multiple hard-to-defend angles....adding kicking defense doesn't really change it that much. Maybe the footwork needs to be even more mobile and fast. But that doesn't change the overall strategy.


Weighting the lead leg is often the problem, which happens a lot.

---The weighting is dynamic. Boxers move around....a lot. A boxer can learn to defend against leg kicks the same way kickboxers learned to defend against leg kicks. But that won't change his central strategy or goal....to hit the other guy....hard...from multiple angles.



When pro and amateur boxers fight low kickers, they get their legs destroyed, as numerous videos have shown.

----And Wing Chun guys would fare no better. I'm not talking about training professional fighters. I'm talking about learning Wing Chun Boxing as a martial art.



So, what do you do without changing much? Build tougher leg?

---Same question back to you as far as your WSLVT is concerned. Are you ready to step into the ring with a professional Thai fighter and face his leg kicks????

 

[LFJ]

the central strategy in boxing is to hit without being hit as much as possible....to land hard shots from multiple hard-to-defend angles....adding kicking defense doesn't really change it that much. Maybe the footwork needs to be even more mobile and fast. But that doesn't change the overall strategy.

You are just saying the strategy is "to fight".

How you fight will change a lot if you're used to not having to be concerned with the dangers of leg kicks.

---The weighting is dynamic. Boxers move around....a lot.

And end up with a weighted and/or exposed lead leg all the time.

A boxer can learn to defend against leg kicks the same way kickboxers learned to defend against leg kicks.

How do you think kickboxing changed after leg kicks became legal?

But that won't change his central strategy or goal....to hit the other guy....hard...from multiple angles.

I agree it won't change the fact that he's fighting, but how will change quite a bit if he wants to walk away on his own.

----And Wing Chun guys would fare no better.

That's your problem.

Adding WB that has the same weakness to fragmented WC is not going to solve the problem.

I'm not talking about training professional fighters. I'm talking about learning Wing Chun Boxing as a martial art.

I didn't only mention pro, but also amateur, because videos showing the failures of WB where leg kicks are allowed are easy to find.

---Same question back to you as far as your WSLVT is concerned.

VT doesn't need changing for that because it was developed with leg kicks in mind, without protective rules allowing it to behave dangerously as if legs cannot be a target.

Are you ready to step into the ring with a professional Thai fighter and face his leg kicks????

Have done so.

 

[KPM]

How you fight will change a lot if you're used to not having to be concerned with the dangers of leg kicks.

----Sure it will change. But saying "a lot" is a relative judgment. It isn't going to require any drastic changes.

And end up with a weighted and/or exposed lead leg all the time.

---Wrong. That statement is no more true of boxing than it would be of WSLVT.


How do you think kickboxing changed after leg kicks became legal?

---I'll assume people stopped standing sideways as Rufus was doing! Not many boxers fight that way!



That's your problem. Adding WB that has the same weakness to fragmented WC is not going to solve the problem.

---No, that's not the problem. I have never once said that adding WB to WC was going to solve WC's problem of being vulnerable to leg kicks.


I didn't only mention pro, but also amateur, because videos showing the failures of WB where leg kicks are allowed are easy to find.

---Same would be true of Wing Chun....oh wait....not many Wing Chun guys actually compete! That's why there isn't much video!



VT doesn't need changing for that because it was developed with leg kicks in mind, without protective rules allowing it to behave dangerously as if legs cannot be a target.

---Yeah right. I'd like to see your VT cope with the Thai boxer in that video you posted!

Have done so.

---For some reason I don't take you seriously. I wonder why?