Wing Chun Boxing

[anerlich]

I spent a couple of hours today gap filling my Wing Chun (no gi BJJ at lunchtime, followed by a mid winter swim at Freshwater Beach - global warming is real).

I just wanted to say that on here.

 

[anerlich]

I never said TWC doesn't work.

Duly noted. I get the feeling I may feel a need to remind you of this at a time in the near future.

 

[LFJ]

I feel no burden to demonstrate anything, or to meet your expectations.

So, why make the claim in the first place?

You were in the middle of crapping on WSLVT and wanted to show me that TWC works by citing a fight you can't show had TWC in it. Just looks silly.

 

[anerlich]

So, why make the claim in the first place?

You were in the middle of crapping on WSLVT and wanted to show me that TWC works by citing a fight you can't show had TWC in it. Just looks silly.

I claimed a student from my organisation (which trains in TWC, BJJ, etc.) won an MMA fight. Not that TWC won an MMA fight.

Sorry if I was crapping on WSLVT. Was I? I thought I was crapping on you.

I concede I made some unflattering remarks about overconceptualising and mentioning PBWSLVT.

After you crapped on my Patrick McCarthy quote and made all sorts of intelligent remarks about ball grabbing.

You behaved well and I behaved badly, huh?

Look him up, the guy is an awesome karate technician and historian and knows his sh*t backwards. Pretty amazing JJJ as well.

I apologise unreservedly for my insutls toward PBWSLVT. God, will I be able to sleep tonight? Will I ever be able to live with myself again?

Others can make their own judgements about which one of us might look the sillier after the discussion about that fight.

 

[LFJ]

I claimed a student from my organisation (which trains in TWC, BJJ, etc.) won an MMA fight. Not that TWC won an MMA fight.

You only said your "si-dai" (WC term) won an MMA fight to then say your stuff works while contrasting application-based TWC with "over-conceptualized" VT.

It would be pointless (irrelevant) to tell us that BJJ works in the context of that discussion.

Of course you wanted to cite your si-dai's fight and tally one for TWC.

It would be cool to see if he used any TWC in his fight, but unfortunately there's no video and the only photos you shared show non-TWC, and he won it with BJJ.

 

[anerlich]

I dont know much about catch wrestling. But I do know someone somewhere can make it work.

I'm playing around with some catch stuff with one of my BJJ training buds at the moment. He got a lot of stuff from an recent Erik Paulson seminar. There's some brutal stuff in there.

There's some BJJ gaps that it can do a great job of gap-filling for.

 

[anerlich]

while contrasting application-based TWC with "over-conceptualized" VT.

Actually, I just pi$$ed on "over-conceptualized" VT, and I wasn't being altogether serious. I made no comparisons with application based styles. To call TWC an application-based style is inaccurate, in any case. To say such a thing would be display bias and arrogance. Just as well no one on this forum is like that.

he won it

Yes! he did!

I'm going to stop know. I need to think more about gap filling, using complementary arts, and the similarities and differences between the two approaches.

 

[LFJ]

To call TWC an application-based style is inaccurate, in any case.

Except for the case in which TWC stands for Traditional Wing Chun.

It's almost nothing but applications against the one arm to and on the blindside.

 

[KPM]

Besides the fact that it does, you have taken on a burden of proof to show that it doesn't work if you want to make that claim.


There should also be evidence that it doesn't work before you come to that conclusion. Otherwise you are just showing bias and arrogance.
.

Actually....if we want to be all "scientific" about things.....in science many theories and experiments work by having a hypothesis, assuming its wrong, and doing an experiment to see what happens. Statistically you look for deviations from the norm...the norm typically being that it doesn't work, and you are looking for evidence that it does! So the best view to take is that something doesn't work until you are pleasantly surprised by finding out that it does. This is how you help reduce study bias in an experiment. And the burden of proof in many situations outside of science is on the person saying something DOES work, not the person doubting that person's claim that it works!

 

[anerlich]

Except for the case in which TWC stands for Traditional Wing Chun.

It's almost nothing but applications against the one arm to and on the blindside.

But you never said it doesn't work, right?

 

[Martial D]

Fellas, fellas...can we just agree that all variations of Wing Chun don't work equally?

(Kidding of course. Any style of WC can probably work. If you are already in trapping range. And if your opponent has no standing grappling game.)

 

[anerlich]

Of course they work equally up to that point.

The pivotal factor after that is whether you are gap filling, or supplementing what you are doing with a complementary art.

After listening to the various inputs on this, I'm coming around to thinking gap filling is superior, even after all those years in Jiu Jitsu.

The gap fillers are coming to kick your butt.

Covfefe

 

[drop bear]

Besides the fact that it does, you have taken on a burden of proof to show that it doesn't work if you want to make that claim.

But since you know nothing about VT, the correct stance to take would be agnostic.



There should also be evidence that it doesn't work before you come to that conclusion. Otherwise you are just showing bias and arrogance.



I agree, but you must know something about how it functions, or doesn't.



I don't choose styles based on popularity. Usually interest and availability, some times chance.

No. There doesnt have to be evidence it doesn't work. I can just say there is no evidence that it does work.

Are there men on mars? Well there is no evidence of them being there. I dont have to prove they are not there. Or even go to mars. I am going to assume there are no men on mars untill someone proves there is.

Otherwise you have told me how VT functions. which is basically differently to how martial arts that do work function. To the point it is incompatible with systems that do work.

So we have a system that does not follow methods of succesful systems. We have a system that cannot integrate succesful methods. And we have a system does not seem to be succesful anywhere.

The idea that it doesnt work is not a great leap of imagination. Sorry. You can dance around some obscure possibility that it really does work using unconventional methods that work in a way nobody can mesure. But I am at this point untill evidence sways me otherwise go with the more likley possibility.

I mean before you invested time in BJJ you looked at a system that objectively worked. Then you invest time in understanding that system.

I don't believe you just picked a system at random to integrate.

This is why people pick arts like boxing to gap fill. Because before they invest time and effort in understanding the system they know it works.

 

[geezer]

...Otherwise you have told me how VT functions. which is basically differently to how martial arts that do work function. To the point it is incompatible with systems that do work. So we have a system that does not follow methods of succesful systems. We have a system that cannot integrate successful methods. And we have a system does not seem to be successful anywhere.

Drop Bear -- I would maintain that there is evidence that VT/WT/WC does work as a stand-up self defense system, and that elements of VT/WC/WT, with the right coaches, the right students, and the right training methods, can contribute to an MMA fighter's repertoire.

My evidence is meager, because very few WC/VT/WT groups train for MMA with, as stated above, effective coaches and a appropriate training regimen (including a lot of "gap filling" ). Even so, Anerlich and Lobo66 have provided us with examples. And, of course there are the efforts of guys like Alan Orr. All in all, enough to suggest that the potential is there.

So perhaps it is wise to distinguish between the uncompromising position LFJ stakes out and what others in the WC/VT community are saying. Including others in LFJ's own WSL-VT community. I am not certain that he speaks for all of them on this issue.

Maybe some other WSL-VT folks would care to weigh in?

 

[LFJ]

But you never said it doesn't work, right?

Though, I have very strong doubts that the applications are realistic, and there's no evidence that they work.

Following KPM's "scientific" method, I should say it doesn't work. But, I'm fine with just saying I don't believe it.

the burden of proof in many situations outside of science is on the person saying something DOES work, not the person doubting that person's claim that it works!

You aren't just doubting.
You're stating that it does not work.

The burden of proof is on anyone making a claim, whether positive or negative.

If you don't want to take on a burden of proof you will neither claim that it does or does not work.

You will say that you accept neither claim.

we have a system does not seem to be succesful anywhere.

Except where it does and you ignore it.

You cannot refuse to examine evidence and then claim there is none. That's just covering your eyes and ears and saying nanna nanna nanna!

 

[Juany118]

Though, I have very strong doubts that the applications are realistic, and there's no evidence that they work.

Following KPM's "scientific" method, I should say it doesn't work. But, I'm fine with just saying I don't believe it.

Well, if/when we get body cameras I will inevitably be able to show it does work (beyond my existing statements it works based on my personal experience) if granted permission to make a a copy.

 

[drop bear]

Drop Bear -- I would maintain that there is evidence that VT/WT/WC does work as a stand-up self defense system, and that elements of VT/WC/WT, with the right coaches, the right students, and the right training methods, can contribute to an MMA fighter's repertoire.

My evidence is meager, because very few WC/VT/WT groups train for MMA with, as stated above, effective coaches and a appropriate training regimen (including a lot of "gap filling" ). Even so, Anerlich and Lobo66 have provided us with examples. And, of course there are the efforts of guys like Alan Orr. All in all, enough to suggest that the potential is there.

So perhaps it is wise to distinguish between the uncompromising position LFJ stakes out and what others in the WC/VT community are saying. Including others in LFJ's own WSL-VT community. I am not certain that he speaks for all of them on this issue.

Maybe some other WSL-VT folks would care to weigh in?

I haven't seen many fights using the VT. It would be interesting to see how they are faring. But if there is evidence then there is evidence. I dont have a problem with that.

Is there evidence that gap filling with boxing breaks VT? I find that kind of silly.

 

[LFJ]

Is there evidence that gap filling with boxing breaks VT? I find that kind of silly.

Based on what knowledge or experience of what makes VT function and what breaks it would you find it silly?

A more unbiased statement would be;
"I can't imagine how that would happen."

 

[drop bear]

Based on what knowledge or experience of what makes VT function and what breaks it would you find it silly?

A more unbiased statement would be;
"I can't imagine how that would happen."

Thank you captain tact.

If we look at combat sports we find that regardless of the style people tend to become pretty generic.

Ultimately there are concepts that work and people tend to gravitate towards those concepts when the outcome is important. Similar movement, power generation. That kind of thing.

We have seen guys like Alan Orr functionally use their system. And from my experience they are doing some pretty generic MMA. Which makes sense if he wants to win fights.

As we move further away from functionality we get more esoteric in application.

You have claimed functionality along side esoteric concepts. Without any real evidence that it is possible. That seems silly.

Now you are also suggesting you can combine esoteric striking with functional grappling. But you can't combine esoteric striking with functional striking. That seems silly.

You see my experience is with fighting in general. Non style specific concepts. And combining styles to increase their functionality. That is basically what I do.

Now my view is if you have something that works. You will see it in other things that work.

Your rational is unique to say the least. And I was wondering if it was shared by other VT guys.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I haven't seen many fights using the VT.

Here is a nice WC chain punches used in MMA.