Wing Chun Boxing

[drop bear]

I do.

Stand-up and ground are entirely distinct situations, and it's not easy to go from one to the other at will, the way distance can be managed to and from long- and short-range striking.

So, VT stand-up and BJJ ground do not interfere with eachother.

Two contradictory stand-up striking methods would.



I don't, but some "Wing Chun Boxers" do.



It is only gap-filling if there is a gap to be filled, as in a stand-up striking method neglecting to address obviously essential ranges of stand-up striking.

VT has no gaps in what it was designed for, just like BJJ. To have skill in both would be intelligent cross-training to be able to deal with the two distinct situations of stand-up and ground.

Sorry I realise you do. I am saying if you wanted a complete system you shouldn't. When you get good enough at BJJ. you will realise it gap fills its incomplete system and considers it a neccecery part of its expansion.

If VT had no gaps then it would dominate the striking landscape.

It doesn't.

If VT was the most efficient striking system it would dominate the striking landscape.

It doesn't.

And you refuse to address that. Your solution is to shut yourself down from external influence and hope that tournements will provide the necessary exposure.

It will untill it doesn't.

Then you will either hit a plateau. And have to mouth box more about efficiency while ignoring the real problem of stagnancy. Or adapt new concepts into your system.

If those concepts are BJJ that is fine. If it helps you sleep at night that you haven't just gap filled an entire segment of your incomplete system. Also fine.

But this thread is not about VT and its inability to compete on a level playing field with better designed and more well rounded systems.

This thead is about using any and all concepts to make WC better and more well rounded So that unlike VT it can hold its own on a level playing field with other systems.

And to do that takes exposure to new concepts and gap filling of short comings. None of which you at this point are capable of processing.

Take it away Frank Dux.

 

[drop bear]

Judo for BJJ.

Gap filling at its finest.

 

[anerlich]

I agree, BJJ is festooned with filled gaps, and recognises there are more yet to fill. Which is one reason why it remains effective and continues to evolve.

Recognising that such gaps exist in any art is one step towards enlightenment

 

[Martial D]

VT is whole for stand-up striking.
BJJ is whole for groundfighting.

So in your world, you can have a complete game without learning how to strike from the ground and grapple from the feet? These are just things you can ignore?

 

[geezer]

I agree, BJJ is festooned with filled gaps, and recognises there are more yet to fill. Which is one reason why it remains effective and continues to evolve.

Recognising that such gaps exist in any art is one step towards enlightenment

Festooned! ...Anyway, looks like there's no self-deception for you. From being open and honest about weaknesses comes the ability to grow stronger. I totally get it. .....Now if only LFJ ...oh forget about it.

 

[Juany118]

I have to say, LFJ has a good point about not blending contradictory systems. That can lead to real problems in which neither art is effective.

That said, I think you can effectively go from one mode to another without constantly mixing the two, but you have to be skilled at the art of transition.

And the art you use can make transitions easier. While the bridging is technically different, the overall concept behind how you bridge (never meeting force with force) is very similar between the WC and the Aikido lineage I studied. Add in the fact that TWC is very fond of trapping... and it doesn't take a whole lot to transition from a lap which is supposed to be temporary to a legitimate control/lock. It also is very easy to go from a gum to a lap or maybe it was just for me.

My first Asian Martial Arts training was a good foundation in Yoshinkan Aikido and then some Judo. When I started studying WC one of the biggest struggles I had was adapting to NOT grabbing a wrist when I was doing drills involving gum sau. So maybe starting with grappling first and then going to WC made it easier for me to connect the dots between the two because I was repeatedly finding points of transition as I would start to revert to the muscle memory I already had. I think it also helped that unlike some instructors I have seen my Sifu doesn't like resets. He believes that, even in a drill you train like you fight, so if you mess up in a drill (as I did) he wanted you to continue on. If that means your partner has to adapt, well then you both learned something. Since I was allowed to experience these mistakes and, not simply "reset", I was able to "file" these transition points for future use.

 

[LFJ]

If VT had no gaps then it would dominate the striking landscape.

It doesn't.

If VT was the most efficient striking system it would dominate the striking landscape.

It doesn't.

Your logic is flawed because VT is not a well-known system by any stretch. It's not to be expected that it would "dominate" any landscape.

Wing Chun practioners in general are already a tiny portion of the world MA population, WSLVT even smaller, and good WSLVT extremely rare in proportion to the entire MA landscape.

So, your requirements are unrealistic and illogical.

better designed and more well rounded systems.

You know nothing about the VT system to make this judgement.

unlike VT it can hold its own on a level playing field with other systems.

Again, you are style-bashing while having no knowledge or experience to actually judge how well VT functions.

This just amounts to trolling. If you were honest you'd either educate yourself on the system you're bashing, or admit you don't know enough to say anything about it.

 

[geezer]

Your logic is flawed because VT is not a well-known system ... good WSLVT extremely rare in proportion to the entire MA landscape.So, your requirements are unrealistic and illogical. You know nothing about the VT system to make this judgement.
Again, you are style-bashing while having no knowledge or experience to actually judge how well VT functions.
This just amounts to trolling. If you were honest you'd either educate yourself on the system you're bashing, or admit you don't know enough to say anything about it.

Allow me to paraphrase the post quoted above:

Drop Bear, you ignorant clod.... you dishonest, style bashing troll, good WSL-VT is so rare that you cannot judge it.
...Now if you're talking negatively about that low-class "broken" WC stuff guys like ...Geezer and the rest of those benighted clowns do, you are probably right.

...or how about this:

...And LFJ doesn't understand why people resent his honest, well meant criticism. After all, he's just trying to help educate us.

 

[Martial D]

Your logic is flawed because VT is not a well-known system by any stretch. It's not to be expected that it would "dominate" any landscape.

Wing Chun practioners in general are already a tiny portion of the world MA population, WSLVT even smaller, and good WSLVT extremely rare in proportion to the entire MA landscape.

So, your requirements are unrealistic and illogical.



You know nothing about the VT system to make this judgement.



Again, you are style-bashing while having no knowledge or experience to actually judge how well VT functions.

This just amounts to trolling. If you were honest you'd either educate yourself on the system you're bashing, or admit you don't know enough to say anything about it.

No, DB has a solid point. In the 90s when mixed style tournaments got popular(UFC etc) everyone and their dog came out of the woodwork to show their style was best.

And there was of course a cold and merciless reconing, for as it turns out the alive beast that is combat doesn't care about anyone's feelings or if what it does is considered 'style bashing'.

If wslvt was indeed viable, it would have been demonstrated between then and now. That it hasn't is worth more than a lifetime worth of excuses.

 

[drop bear]

:

...And LFJ doesn't understand why people resent his honest, well meant criticism. After all, he's just trying to help educate us.

So is wespro.

No really that is their intent.

 

[LFJ]

If wslvt was indeed viable, it would have been demonstrated between then and now.

Demonstrated to whom? The UFC audience? And just why do you say that?

There are thousands of styles from rural areas in China that are "viable" but virtually unknown to the western world.

Just because they are not widely practiced and don't have competitors in UFC doesn't mean you are justified in saying their aren't viable fighting methods.

You don't have to believe they are before you see them, but to judge them with 0 knowledge or experience is just ignorant and arrogant.

 

[drop bear]

Your logic is flawed because VT is not a well-known system by any stretch. It's not to be expected that it would "dominate" any landscape.

Wing Chun practioners in general are already a tiny portion of the world MA population, WSLVT even smaller, and good WSLVT extremely rare in proportion to the entire MA landscape.

So, your requirements are unrealistic and illogical.



You know nothing about the VT system to make this judgement.



Again, you are style-bashing while having no knowledge or experience to actually judge how well VT functions.

This just amounts to trolling. If you were honest you'd either educate yourself on the system you're bashing, or admit you don't know enough to say anything about it.

Ok. here is where we unflaw my logic.

This is Josh barnet. He does a pretty well unheard of style called catch wrestling. Done by a tiny portion of the martial arts world. The reason anyone even cares about him is because he dominates in wrestling.

(Or at least up there enough for people to take notice)

An obscure art is not an excuse for not being able to effectively use your system.

I dont know much about catch wrestling. But I do know someone somwhere can make it work.

That is just a basic observation. I dont have to be versed in a system to objectively determine its success.

 

[LFJ]

An obscure art is not an excuse for not being able to effectively use your system.

So, if a style doesn't have a sport fighter succesfully using it in competiton, you are then justified in saying it doesn't work, even if you've never seen it?

Your logic has not been unflawed. It's just becoming more arrogant.

I dont have to be versed in a system to objectively determine its success.

...in sport fighting only.

 

[drop bear]

So, if a style doesn't have a sport fighter succesfully using it in competiton, you are then justified in saying it doesn't work, even if you've never seen it?

Your logic has not been unflawed. It's just becoming more arrogant.



...in sport fighting only.

If it has no real record of it working anywhere. I am going to go with the theory it doesn't work. I am happy to be persuaded it does work. But I think there should be evidence of it working before I come to that conclusion.

I dont think I should have to train every style forever to determine if something works or not. That is just a backwards way of going about things.


Ok. And why did you choose to cross train in BJJ and not some obscure grappling system?

 

[LFJ]

If it has no real record of it working anywhere. I am going to go with the theory it doesn't work.

Besides the fact that it does, you have taken on a burden of proof to show that it doesn't work if you want to make that claim.

But since you know nothing about VT, the correct stance to take would be agnostic.

I am happy to be persuaded it does work. But I think there should be evidence of it working before I come to that conclusion.

There should also be evidence that it doesn't work before you come to that conclusion. Otherwise you are just showing bias and arrogance.

I dont think I should have to train every style forever to determine if something works or not. That is just a backwards way of going about things.

I agree, but you must know something about how it functions, or doesn't.

Ok. And why did you choose to cross train in BJJ and not some obscure grappling system?

I don't choose styles based on popularity. Usually interest and availability, some times chance.

 

[anerlich]

There should also be evidence that it doesn't work before you come to that conclusion. Otherwise you are just showing bias and arrogance.

Does that apply to your posts about TWC and my pal's fight as well?

 

[LFJ]

Does that apply to your posts about TWC and my pal's fight as well?

Yes.

 

[anerlich]

Agreed.

 

[LFJ]

Agreed.

So, what's your point?

I never said TWC doesn't work.

I was expecting you to meet your burden of proof that that fight demonstrates that TWC works.

I think you were having a quite emotional reaction.

 

[anerlich]

I was expecting you to meet your burden of proof that that fight demonstrates that TWC works.

I feel no burden to demonstrate anything, or to meet your expectations.

I think you were having a quite emotional reaction.

Really? How fascinating.