Violent? In relation to the systems that teach people to gouge eyes, strike the throat, kick the testicles, etc?
I suppose I have a different idea of what "violent" means then they do.
why so many seem to dislike MMA
- Thread starter lonewolfofmibu
- Start date
Violent? In relation to the systems that teach people to gouge eyes, strike the throat, kick the testicles, etc?
I suppose I have a different idea of what "violent" means then they do.
KenpoVzla
Green Belt
My reasons for not liking MMA were:
1. Too much time on the ground and not enough action
2. Calling a martial art something that seems to be missing the "art" part by a lot.
Me coming from a traditional martial arts background, it took me a long time to like MMA. I did recently get into it...my reason? I saw the video of UFC prime time with GSP and oh whao...it changed my perspective. The training and mental aspect in these fighters is top notch, especially when you have fighters that come from a traditional martial arts background.
The sport has changed a lot, and I believe nowadays UFC is really looking out for their fighters. Some fights may get really bloody, but I don't think it's the norm.
The Ultimate Fighter I also like a lot, again because, of the training and competition aspect.
I do believe the word "art" should be taken out of MMA, since
a. It's a sport
b. The "art" aspect is missing in the fighters, unless they come from a traditional martial arts background.
1. Too much time on the ground and not enough action
2. Calling a martial art something that seems to be missing the "art" part by a lot.
Me coming from a traditional martial arts background, it took me a long time to like MMA. I did recently get into it...my reason? I saw the video of UFC prime time with GSP and oh whao...it changed my perspective. The training and mental aspect in these fighters is top notch, especially when you have fighters that come from a traditional martial arts background.
The sport has changed a lot, and I believe nowadays UFC is really looking out for their fighters. Some fights may get really bloody, but I don't think it's the norm.
The Ultimate Fighter I also like a lot, again because, of the training and competition aspect.
I do believe the word "art" should be taken out of MMA, since
a. It's a sport
b. The "art" aspect is missing in the fighters, unless they come from a traditional martial arts background.
What is the 'art' bit then? Is it good sportsmanship? It's there, is it upright moral behaviour, it's there as much as it is any any other martial art, is it tenets of behaviour, that's there too.
The very name Mixed Martial Arts, tells you that it's what it says it is on the tin, it's all the 'old' arts but used together in a fight.
As I've said before to the point of boredom now, judging MMA from one promotion is foolish as it doesn't give you the proper perspective. As for TUF, ugh! It's reality television, used to make money from the ads. For true MMA go find a reputable club or gym, watch MMA at the grass roots level, meet the fighters who do it for love.
KenpoVzla
Green Belt
Well generally the art part is the forms, the non-combat part of the style.
And I do apologize, I did not know that mainstream MMA does not make good name for its "grass root level" counterpart.
Not sure I understand your TUF rant, don't these fighters come from reputable clubs and gyms also? You're saying their fights and training are not portrayed well in the show?
Ooo! you've got me on my favourite subject lol, kata/forms/patterns. Far from being a non combat part of martial arts, these are the basis for self defence and attacking techniques I believe. I follow closely Iain Abernethy's teachings on Bunkai, I find he's absolutely spot on. The kata/forms moves show takedowns, defensive moves, kicks punches, everything you need to defend yourself. Neil Grove a fighter from here is a karateka who still does kata.
http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/news/viewarticle.php?id=1547
It's not that mainstream MMA is wrong or anything it's just that the UFC and the other promotions are very commercial with all that entails. Grass roots MMa doesn't have any real money in it ( sadly really) the UFC is a very American show, flashy, had money chucked at it and loud! Alright if you like it but it is what it is!
I don't like TUF even though I've had mates on it. It's the way that the non fighting and training stuff is portrayed, it winds the fighters up so that they 'perform' so the TV company gets the ratings.
Going back to the question in an earlier post about how Brits think about the badly behaved fighters, I found this .
http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/features/viewarticle.php?id=4461&offset=0
I like MMA but hate the UFC. I think any sport gets screwed up once you throw a lot of money into the mix and lets face it for the promoters it is all about the money. I think that within 2-5 years it will come out that DANA fixes fights. He is all about making money, and I am more than sure he will make sure that he makes it. I would rather watch WWE at least we all know that is setup from the start and the trash talking and junk is part of the show. Mixed Martial Sportist are some of the best trained athletes in the world, and they are great fighters that i would not to meet in an alley somewhere. I personally just don't see the art of it.
I think art is in the eye of the beholder. Many say boxing is an art but others don't. I think what you see as an art is probably personal to you.
I don't know though at what point fighting became an art, was it because people wanted to downplay the violence of the martial techniques to enable it to be sold to the public? If we as MMAer's do karate, Judo, Muay Thai, WC etc at what point do they stop being arts just because we use them all in the same fight? In karate katas there's takedowns, punches kicks and groundwork, yet thats still classed as an art but if I use it in MMA it's not?
The UFC is entertaining enough but it's not the whole thing, it's not the be all and end of of MMA. Other sports have been spoilt by massive amounts of money being poured into it, MMA isn't unique in this.
I don't know though at what point fighting became an art, was it because people wanted to downplay the violence of the martial techniques to enable it to be sold to the public? If we as MMAer's do karate, Judo, Muay Thai, WC etc at what point do they stop being arts just because we use them all in the same fight? In karate katas there's takedowns, punches kicks and groundwork, yet thats still classed as an art but if I use it in MMA it's not?
The UFC is entertaining enough but it's not the whole thing, it's not the be all and end of of MMA. Other sports have been spoilt by massive amounts of money being poured into it, MMA isn't unique in this.
Good point, and this is what, IMO, leads people to think that ALL martial arts are bad, violent, etc, in addition to MMA. As I've said before, I've been teaching for quite a while, and have had people comment on some of the things that I've taught. I try to give somewhat of a tasteful reply, rather than what I'm really thinking, that being to save their money, quit now, and take up a friggin' knitting class.
To address your points above:
1) Agreed. Remember the early UFC shows, where we'd see Royce locked in these epic, 30min battles? Remember Royce and Dan Severn? 99% of the fight was Dan in Royces guard. Thankfully today, and IMO, much to the dismay of some fans, the refs stand the fighters back up, which I feel is a good thing. Of course, thats probably one of the main reasons why the Gracies have little to do with the UFC now, because really that is their game plan....take the person down, to their comfort zone, play the long, drawn out game, and go for a sub. Imagine Royce fighting now?
2) As I've said many times, everyone trains for their own reasons. The art side probably doesn't fit into what everyone sees as MMA. There isn't supposed to be 'violence' in the art side. Personally, I dont get too hung up on the terms.
As for your other points:
a) Correct.
b) Many fighters have. Machida (sp) came from a Shotokan background I believe and Chuck came from a Kempo/Kaju background.
punisher73
Senior Master
That's what was neat about watching the old PrideFC fights. The japanese loved a fighter who fought with his all, win or lose. It was encouraged more to go out there and leave it on the mat instead of trying for judges decisions etc.
Was the UK fighter who is not as popular now the same one who in his last fight was trying to push his head against his opponent in the staredown? I lost respect for that fighter at that point.
punisher73
Senior Master
As to the original topic, I have been watching UFC since it first came out and watch other promotions as well. I can't stand watching TUF because most of those guys are punks and bullies and just want to hurt people. They give the professional fighters and MMA as a whole a bad image.
Around where I live, most of the guys who claim to "train in MMA" are just criminal thugs who like to fight and just fight with each other doing whatever they see on the UFC, it isn't formal training. So what is the public perception around here of MMA? For the uneducated not very good. There is another group of various people at various places who train in MMA and are great guys and low key, you wouldn't know that they train in MMA. Squeaky wheel and all....
BUT, my main gripe about MMA (image issues aside) is that here in the US, the popular belief is that any other martial arts is worthless unless you see it in the cage. The belief in the US is that the only striking that works is boxing with some muay thai thrown in and BJJ/wrestling. Anything else will NOT work on the street or help you defend yourself.
Around where I live, most of the guys who claim to "train in MMA" are just criminal thugs who like to fight and just fight with each other doing whatever they see on the UFC, it isn't formal training. So what is the public perception around here of MMA? For the uneducated not very good. There is another group of various people at various places who train in MMA and are great guys and low key, you wouldn't know that they train in MMA. Squeaky wheel and all....
BUT, my main gripe about MMA (image issues aside) is that here in the US, the popular belief is that any other martial arts is worthless unless you see it in the cage. The belief in the US is that the only striking that works is boxing with some muay thai thrown in and BJJ/wrestling. Anything else will NOT work on the street or help you defend yourself.
I like watching MMA. I don't mind it being called an art; as Tez said, anything could be considered an art.
The way I saw it all go down started with boxing. Oh, cool. I didn't much like it but I understood it. Then a sport came around where they'd kick each other, too. Sweet. So now they're punching and kicking. Still not too interested myself. One day, I watched a UFC fight. Okay, so now they're wrestling with the punching and kicking. It was a lot more interesting to me and I watch UFC fights over boxing and kickboxing any day.
I think many dislike MMA basically because it's new. The new guys can't shut up about it and the old timers think it's just newfandangled crap. In time, the hype will settle down and MMA will be just as cool as anything else. Someone earlier in this thread compared MMA to JKD. Sure, I can see a similarity or two.
As far as TUF, I hate ALL reality shows. Add some violence and it's just a glorified version of Jerry Springer. Yay.
The way I saw it all go down started with boxing. Oh, cool. I didn't much like it but I understood it. Then a sport came around where they'd kick each other, too. Sweet. So now they're punching and kicking. Still not too interested myself. One day, I watched a UFC fight. Okay, so now they're wrestling with the punching and kicking. It was a lot more interesting to me and I watch UFC fights over boxing and kickboxing any day.
I think many dislike MMA basically because it's new. The new guys can't shut up about it and the old timers think it's just newfandangled crap. In time, the hype will settle down and MMA will be just as cool as anything else. Someone earlier in this thread compared MMA to JKD. Sure, I can see a similarity or two.
As far as TUF, I hate ALL reality shows. Add some violence and it's just a glorified version of Jerry Springer. Yay.
Now you are talking I like some Jerry makes me feel better about my family. lol!
I know what you mean, we have a home grown version here, Jeremy Kyle, the people on there always make me feel better especially if I have a 'fat' day! The best thing about Jeremy though is he's a blue belt BJJ! I really don't like reality shows, Big Brother, I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here etc etc I don't know if you have them, hopefully not!
I dont dislike MMA but alot of people in MMA disrespect alot of other arts. They say oh Kali sucks, wing chun sucks, this sucks that sucks. Yet MMA is basically just that.........mixed martial arts. meaning its not an art in itself but a blend of many arts usually Muay Thai, and BJJ, or some type of grappling, boxing perhaps and stuff like that. So how can they say that other arts suck when its made out of many arts? Does MMA use kickboxing? Bruce Lee was one of the first people to bring kickboxing to the USA. Does MMA use Muay Thai? Well that art has been around WAYYY before UFC or anything like that. Does MMA have Boxing. Hell Boxing use to be done in rome and greece, they use spiked gloves called a cestus. So when i talk to a BJJ or MMA guy who only does MMA or BJJ the conversation usually gets into a thing were he or she says something offensive like wing chun sucks. or if a guy came into my gym with his karate and stuff we'd kick his ***. I think that all UFC ever did was expose peoples lack of a grappling game. BJJ is not the ultimate art even the MASTERS of BJJ look up other arts. Carlson Gracie was friends with Sam Kwok who was a master of Wing Chun he wanted to incorperate it into UFC. John Machado does Japanese Jiujitsu, Krav maga, and BJJ. Erik Paulson who is one of the most dynamic grapplers in the world is not only a BJJ black belt but trained in Jeet Kune Do, Taekwondo, Filipino Martial Arts and Silat, Catch Wrestling.
What got me really agitated one time was when Bas Rutten said oh if Bruce Lee went into MMA he'd get his *** handed to him. I thought that was pretty insulting especially since Bruce Lee trained with or under Gene Lebel (Gene Lebel is said to have fought the first MMA fight EVER in the USA He's respected by guys like Benny the Jet, and Bas Rutten which is pretty odd since Gene Lebel and Bruce Lee were friends and Bas says well Bruce lee would get owned he'd need a year of training.) I think thats complete bull. Then he said something else once about how Aikido would never work in MMA. Yet ive seen some aikido moves used in MMA the moves you use in Aikido look simple or whatever but there designed to break your bones. and talking about breaking bones AIKIDO IS SUPPOSE TO BE A PEACEFUL ART! Aikido is actually from Aikijujutsu and Aikijutsu which are more leathal arts.
So i think that MMA guys and BJJ guys who say oh well MMA and BJJ are the ultimate martial arts need to step back and actually see if thast true. Im glad that today we have guys like the Dog Brothers who are doing MMA/BJJ combined with Kali and Silat, because they are doing the grappling part but are also still showing you that the stand up part is still very useful. a recent MMA bout was between a man named Jeff Newton and a mma fighter, Newton lost and most people said it was a ******** call cause he shouldnt have lost, anyway he fought with an MMA guy but i dont think he tapped out he dominated the mma guy in the stand up game.
What got me really agitated one time was when Bas Rutten said oh if Bruce Lee went into MMA he'd get his *** handed to him. I thought that was pretty insulting especially since Bruce Lee trained with or under Gene Lebel (Gene Lebel is said to have fought the first MMA fight EVER in the USA He's respected by guys like Benny the Jet, and Bas Rutten which is pretty odd since Gene Lebel and Bruce Lee were friends and Bas says well Bruce lee would get owned he'd need a year of training.) I think thats complete bull. Then he said something else once about how Aikido would never work in MMA. Yet ive seen some aikido moves used in MMA the moves you use in Aikido look simple or whatever but there designed to break your bones. and talking about breaking bones AIKIDO IS SUPPOSE TO BE A PEACEFUL ART! Aikido is actually from Aikijujutsu and Aikijutsu which are more leathal arts.
So i think that MMA guys and BJJ guys who say oh well MMA and BJJ are the ultimate martial arts need to step back and actually see if thast true. Im glad that today we have guys like the Dog Brothers who are doing MMA/BJJ combined with Kali and Silat, because they are doing the grappling part but are also still showing you that the stand up part is still very useful. a recent MMA bout was between a man named Jeff Newton and a mma fighter, Newton lost and most people said it was a ******** call cause he shouldnt have lost, anyway he fought with an MMA guy but i dont think he tapped out he dominated the mma guy in the stand up game.
Oh and the comment that Bas made about Bruce Lee pissed me off i almost said meh screw Bas Rutten but then i thought it through and said if i wanted to learn martial arts then id have to learn grappling or mma and there are few people better then Bas Rutten. If anyone thinks JKD sucks id just like to say that JKD guys were some of the first in SHOOTO because of there open minds
People are always saying things about other arts, MMA isn't alone in that but you can't judge anything by one person. So as Bas Rutten thinks one thing does that mean the thousands of others who do MMA think the same thing and yes I've heard plenty people say MMA sucks and Bas Rutten would get beaten if a 'real' martial artist ever got in the cage with him, it's all hype and it's all hot air. Judge a style/art properely by using your own judgement, go out and actually have a look at whats there don't rely on what a celebrity says.
Mider, if you are hanging around with people who constantly disparage other arts I suggest you find some new and better balanced friends, they don't sound like proper martial artists to me.Without seeing the 'Newton' fight there is no way of knowing what went on and how it should have turned out.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
I saw that interview, and there are a couple of points you are forgetting / not telling.
First of all, IIRC the Bruce Lee remark was due to the fact that Bruce missed good ground skills that are encouraged by the rules in most MMA orgs. Pointing this out is not disrespectful.
I also saw the aikido interview, and imo the question was asked in the context of 'will aikido work in the octagon as a sole skill', and not in the context of 'will aikido be a valuable addition to the other skills you need as a fighter'. and within that context, I lean towards Bas's opinion, that aikido as a sole skill will not be enough to survive in an MMA bout.
Thanks Bruno! nice catch there!
I agree, Aikido as a sole skill isn't enough, no one art is hence the name Mixed Martial Arts. We do use Aiki in our training both for the cage and self defence.
As a side note, the UFC has been trying to stop the use of the words 'ultimate' and 'octagon' as they reckon it's copyright to UFC!
