Tae Kwon Do in MMA

[NotQuiteDead]

I think it's backwards to learn a form and then get taught the applications. If the applications are supposed to be used, why not learn them first, practice them with a partner, on a heavy bag, on pads, etc. and then you can do them in the air all you want? You wouldn't walk into a boxing gym and expect to get taught shadowboxing, and then learn "applications" of it. You learn to box, and shadowboxing is just practicing it on your own...

I think people would get more out of forms if they learned everything separately, and only then put them together.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Boxers do not step into the ring the first time in the gym. They learn the techniques and train the techniques before putting the gloves on against a live opponent

I think people would get more out of forms if they learned everything separately, and only then put them together.

I learned how to do walking stance, forward extended stance, down block, outer block, reverse punch , and snap kick all before learning my first form, which uses those techniques. I've never learned a form without already knowing all the basic moves of the form. That being said, if the first day I did a down block, my instructor had said "this can also be used as a trap and then you can do this and that and the other from this basic movement", I would've been very confused.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Boxers do not step into the ring the first time in the gym. They learn the techniques and train the techniques before putting the gloves on against a live opponent

Where did I say anything different?

I learned how to do walking stance, forward extended stance, down block, outer block, reverse punch , and snap kick all before learning my first form, which uses those techniques. I've never learned a form without already knowing all the basic moves of the form. That being said, if the first day I did a down block, my instructor had said "this can also be used as a trap and then you can do this and that and the other from this basic movement", I would've been very confused.

But in an earlier post you said this:

In our class on Monday, we worked with the very first motion in Taegeuk Il-Jang, with some minor modifications, into a self defense against a mid level punch. The "chamber" before the block became a deflection and trap, the downblock itself, with some modified hand motions became pulling the wirst down and in, and the foreward punch was re-targetted to the bicep. Just a small example but with some thought it's not hard to find practical application in the basic movements of forms

You didn't learn that and then put it into a form and practice it on your own, you practiced the form and then learned applications of it...

I don't have a problem with people practicing forms, shadowboxing, etc. but I think it's ridiculous to base all your training off of a form, and learn "applications" of movements rather than learning the techniques themselves. If something works, use it! It just makes no sense to learn movements before techniques.

 

[FearlessFreep]

You didn't learn that and then put it into a form and practice it on your own, you practiced the form and then learned applications of it...

*sigh* I learned some moves and the applications, a bunch of those moves were then taught to me as a form, then I learned *more* applications for the same move. I learned a snap kick (front kick) and learned to do it at various heights to various targets and with variations (toes forward for horizontal targets like groin, toes back for vertical targets like thigh, solar plexus, or face). Then I learned my first form, which happened to include a snap kick to the face. I learned a fornal down-block which inludes a chambering motion, but also learned that in a real fight that the whole chamber is not needed, but then I used the formal downblock in a form, but then learned that the the chamber motion can be a block ot a trap in it's own right. Usually by the time I learn a new form, I've already learned several applications of the movements within the form, and as I learn the form and train in it, I learn more.

I think it's ridiculous to base all your training off of a form,

So do I, and nobody I know of does all their self-defense training based only on form movements. I learned my first set of basic SD movements before I had learned my first form. Heck, many of my first SD moves were as much Hapkido based as TKD based

You seem to be assuming that day 1, class 1 is to learn a form and then learn how to do self-defense from just the motions in that form. It's not taught and trained like that.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I learned a fornal down-block which inludes a chambering motion, but also learned that in a real fight that the whole chamber is not needed, but then I used the formal downblock in a form, but then learned that the the chamber motion can be a block ot a trap in it's own right. Usually by the time I learn a new form, I've already learned several applications of the movements within the form, and as I learn the form and train in it, I learn more.

So why not learn the down block without the chambering motion as a block, and then learn the chambering motion as a grab separately? I see no reason to practice them together in the first place.

When I trained in kung fu, we did the same thing but we also practiced a drill where we would pull the opponent's hand to the chamber while punching. It made no sense to practice the chamber while punching because the drill was a better way to practice it and wouldn't develop bad habits. People have told me sometimes that instead of bringing my hand back to my face after a jab I'll drop it down by my chest, which is no doubt a bad habit from punching from the chamber and bringing it back there.

So do I, and nobody I know of does all their self-defense training based only on form movements. I learned my first set of basic SD movements before I had learned my first form. Heck, many of my first SD moves were as much Hapkido based as TKD based

You seem to be assuming that day 1, class 1 is to learn a form and then learn how to do self-defense from just the motions in that form. It's not taught and trained like that.

A lot of people do train like that, though. They may learn the basics separately but then they talk about takedown defenses, weapon disarms, joint locks, etc. that are "hidden" in the form that are learned afterwards. You posted an example of that, which I just quoted in my last post. Training like that is very much based on forms. If you didn't talk about the form or it's applications, would you learn much besides punches, kicks, and blocks?

 

[Marginal]

I think it's backwards to learn a form and then get taught the applications.

Good thing it's trained the other way around.

Lots of boxers etc drop hands their too low after a punch. A lot of the initial drills and instruction in boxing centers around getting them to keep their hands up. I doubt it's a bad habit forced upon you from practicing kung fu.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Lots of boxers etc drop hands their too low after a punch. A lot of the initial drills and instruction in boxing centers around getting them to keep their hands up. I doubt it's a bad habit forced upon you from practicing kung fu.

I haven't done any drills since starting mma that didn't involve keeping my guard up and bringing my hands back to my guard after a punch. The problem isn't with keeping my hands up, but sometimes I bring them back towards the "chamber" but stop lowering them at about chest level. The way my coach demonstrated what I was doing looked exactly like someone bringing their hands to the chamber, just not as far.

 

[Marginal]

I haven't done any drills since starting mma that didn't involve keeping my guard up and bringing my hands back to my guard after a punch. The problem isn't with keeping my hands up, but sometimes I bring them back towards the "chamber" but stop lowering them at about chest level. The way my coach demonstrated what I was doing looked exactly like someone bringing their hands to the chamber, just not as far.

You're describing what a lot of boxers and MMA'ers do as well. (Not just in training, in televised professional fights) They all have prior training in kung fu too?

 

[NotQuiteDead]

A lot of people drop their hands because they rely more on head movement than just covering up for defense, and a lot of times if people are tired they will keep their hands lower. I think I'm just lowering my hands after punches out of habit, because I occasionally do other stuff I haven't trained since I quit kung fu.

 

[Marginal]

I'd argue that keeping your hands up isn't a natural posture. It's effective, but it has to be trained and drilled.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I drop my hands too, when I'm not paying attention; partially fatigue and partially focus, but that's just an 'at rest' position when I'm sparring and not going for face/head punches. In TKD sparring I punch to the body but need to remember to keep my hands up to keep from getting kicked in the head.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I'm not talking about keeping my hands low like many people do, I'm talking about bringing my hand back at an angle towards the "chamber" after punching. I'm talking about what I do with my hand after a punch, not my guard.

 

[FearlessFreep]

That just sounds like a personal bad habit. I'ts not something I do

 

[tomthlee]

I drop my hands too, when I'm not paying attention; partially fatigue and partially focus, but that's just an 'at rest' position when I'm sparring and not going for face/head punches. In TKD sparring I punch to the body but need to remember to keep my hands up to keep from getting kicked in the head.

There's a difference between keeping your hands up from getting kicked in the head rather than punched in the face. When someone is flurrying at you with jabs, cross punches, hookes, and uppercuts, the velocity is so extreme that you are FORCED to fight with your hands up. Since TKD fighters are relieved from this type of attack, you often find them with their hands down. They throw them up to block the occasional kick to the head, and keep in mind that the kick to the head moves significantly slower than the punch. Unless you are a skilled boxer looking to goad an attack, dropping your hands has zero functional value in NHB combat.

And in regards to this comment earlier: "Why don't you run around aimlessly in the ring like you do when jogging?"

That's called conditioning. If you want to fight someone with a more or less equal skill level, you have to be in shape. Jogging, squats, push-ups, sit-ups, pikes, etc. are exercises designed to put the athlete in shape so that he/she doesn't gas out after the first round. What does a TKD pattern or dead blocking drill do?

a) It doesn't put you in shape. Unless you're grossly obese and you sweat gallons from the slightest movement (in which case a nice walk around the park would be a better choice of exercise).
b) It doesn't teach you how to fight.

If I had to put my money on a street fighter who jogged 6 miles a day vs. a tkd fighter who drills patterns, my money is on the street fighter.

Tom

 

[FearlessFreep]

Since TKD fighters are relieved from this type of attack, you often find them with their hands down.

Wrong on two counts.

One: Point-sparring does allow punches to the head and in point-sparring you see a *lot* more head punches and a lot less kicks than in olympic-style sparring. Different scoring rules promote different strategy but they are both TKD sparring.

Two: As I said, when I drop my hands I consdier it bad technique. Hands held up allow defense of both the head and the body. Hands held down are poor for body defense and real poor for head defense. I'm not trying to defend some sort of 'value' of dropping hands

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Point sparring does, however, encourage people to fly at eachother recklessly while hoping to land the first hit.

 

[tomthlee]

Yes, it often resembles two angry girls trying to kill each other... with tons of flinching and flailing going on.

Tom

 

[tomthlee]

Since TKD fighters are relieved from this type of attack, you often find them with their hands down.

Wrong on two counts.

One: Point-sparring does allow punches to the head and in point-sparring you see a *lot* more head punches and a lot less kicks than in olympic-style sparring. Different scoring rules promote different strategy but they are both TKD sparring.

Two: As I said, when I drop my hands I consdier it bad technique. Hands held up allow defense of both the head and the body. Hands held down are poor for body defense and real poor for head defense. I'm not trying to defend some sort of 'value' of dropping hands

You are trying to defend your style, yet at the same time you refuse to defend a big trademark of your style (the dropping of hands) seen in olympic competition. Want some evidence? Here:

http://www.shinnstkd.com/whatsnew/Lopez01Small.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/olympics/2004/galleries/day16_action/images/06_taekwondo.jpg

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2000/taekwando/news/2000/09/28/korea_gold_ru/lg_sin_afp-01.jpg

These pictures depict taekwondo in alive setting, sparring against each other using resistance. And in sparring, these players exhibit the bad habit of dropping the hands. Whether you like it or not, this represents your martial art.

Tom

 

[Marginal]

Ah. So then every TKD practitioner must also flop around like a fool too?

 

[tomthlee]

Ah. So then every TKD practitioner must also flop around like a fool too?

That's what I've been seeing. This is an MMA forum. Let's be serious here. Would you really want to stick a pure TKD fighter in the octagon? It's inhumane for the poor TKD guinea pig.

Tom