Submissions has killed MMA
- Thread starter silatman
- Start date
I think that no matter what your stand is . If there are no major rules changes as far as the allowable technics go & the judgeing criteria stays as it is now the grapplers in the sport have no incentives to change . If they are getting major credit for superior ground control why change ? The Josh Koshceck example was a good one . I don't really remember him landing that many blows . Now that was a perfect example of when the judges should have stepped up & called it a draw so they could fight one more round . I think all of the fighters on that show & Dana White were really suprised by that decition . The next fight Josh Koshceck fought on that show was against the eventual champ in that weight class & he got beat up bad . Now that was an example of a good ground battle & a good battle in general . The guy he fought was much more well rounded & is every bit the grappler Josh is . Bottom line is we are talking about making these fights as entertaining as possible & still being fair to the fighters & their styles . While keeping it an even playing feild . In my opinion the rules & the judgeing fovors the ground guy . Not by much , but enough to change the action of alot of the fights . It is an entertainment bussiness . Maybe one idea is to take points away from the control person for continual stalling . Or direct the judges to show alittle more balance . I don't think an extra round here & there would hurt . People love to see that . As long as they are fair to the fighters .
If you don't allow grappling and submissions it's hardly MIXED martial arts then is it? It would really make more sense for some of you to learn the sport before trying to alter the rule set. Pride FC allows kicks to a downed opponent. So the debate about shooting is no risk is completely false. Take downs, ground work, clinch control are all very important parts of a fight. If you don't like them watch K1 kick boxing and you won't have to see them.
A great many strikes have made good names for themselves in MMA. But instead of complaining about how grappling is unfair they just trained the needed skills to win. Cro Cop trains with Fabricio Werdum, a world class BJJ guy. Silva is a black belt in BJJ. Lidell has a background in wrestling. Rich Franklin trains grappling with Jorge Gurgel last I heard. MIXED means you work on all the skills, not just a small subset of them.
A great many strikes have made good names for themselves in MMA. But instead of complaining about how grappling is unfair they just trained the needed skills to win. Cro Cop trains with Fabricio Werdum, a world class BJJ guy. Silva is a black belt in BJJ. Lidell has a background in wrestling. Rich Franklin trains grappling with Jorge Gurgel last I heard. MIXED means you work on all the skills, not just a small subset of them.
So whats your point William ? Pride allows kicks to downed opponants & they also give out yellow cards for stalling ! Thats why pride fights are better & the fighters are alittle better . So basically all the whining you just did proved my point .WilliamJ said:
Marginal
Senior Master
MJS said:
Why's Fred still just lying there under the other guy? Why doesn't he get up?
Kinda gets circular from here on out....
But anyway, as Iwas trying to point out, there's more out there than just the UFC. If a thread's titled, "Submissions have ruined MMA." seems like the basic claim is broader than just what's going on in the UFC.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Why's Fred still just lying there under the other guy? Why doesn't he get up?
Kinda gets circular from here on out....
I agree. That's sorta what I was trying to allude to...it's pretty much a circle...One's not good enough to submit the other...one's not good enough to escape the other. Both are doing something right...but not quite enough. Neither really deserves to win....neither deserves to lose...but under UFC rules, Bob would win.
But anyway, as Iwas trying to point out, there's more out there than just the UFC. If a thread's titled, "Submissions have ruined MMA." seems like the basic claim is broader than just what's going on in the UFC.
I agree. I was careful to point out that difference
Marginal said:Why's Fred still just lying there under the other guy? Why doesn't he get up?
Kinda gets circular from here on out....
Absolutely!! :ultracool Why is Fred laying there? Probably a number of reasons. I'm just giving my POV on what I see. Pretty much, unless there is a rule change, the fighters are stood back up after little or no activity, it goes like this. Fighter A takes Fighter B down. A maintains good position, not allowing B to escape. However, A makes little to no attempts to submit or strike. Round ends with it going to A. This same scenario plays out for the next few rounds. End result: A wins. This tells me that A, while he has good takedowns, needs serious work on submissions and striking. B needs work on escapes.
Agreed! :ultracool
Mike
The name of the thread is submissions have ruined MMA, not UFC alone. Pride has allowed kicks to downed opponents since 2000, they have not waffled on it since then. But I would have thought an expert in MMA like yourself would have known that.
Takedowns and submissions are used because they work, plain and simple. So now you want to put rules in to limit them because you don't understand what you are seeing and are getting bored. If there is a tweak needed by the UFC they need to give more points for control from the bottom, but they are boxing judges so they don't reall understand grappling.
As for whining, it sounds like you are the one whining about the way things are. Which just further proves that people like you, who do not understand fighting, shouldn't watch MMA.
Takedowns and submissions are used because they work, plain and simple. So now you want to put rules in to limit them because you don't understand what you are seeing and are getting bored. If there is a tweak needed by the UFC they need to give more points for control from the bottom, but they are boxing judges so they don't reall understand grappling.
As for whining, it sounds like you are the one whining about the way things are. Which just further proves that people like you, who do not understand fighting, shouldn't watch MMA.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
End result: A wins. This tells me that A, while he has good takedowns, needs serious work on submissions and striking. B needs work on escapes.
If that's *all* that happens then it's hard to really complain. What I object to is when Fighter B gets in 30-45 seconds of superior striking first, and then get's taken down and Fighter A gets the because he 'controlled' the round.
If that's *all* that happens then it's hard to really complain. What I object to is when Fighter B gets in 30-45 seconds of superior striking first, and then get's taken down and Fighter A gets the because he 'controlled' the round.
Does this mean that the judges for the UFC shouldn't watch either, because as you pointed out, they really don't understand this type of fighting either ???WilliamJ said:The name of the thread is submissions have ruined MMA, not UFC alone. Pride has allowed kicks to downed opponents since 2000, they have not waffled on it since then. But I would have thought an expert in MMA like yourself would have known that.
Takedowns and submissions are used because they work, plain and simple. So now you want to put rules in to limit them because you don't understand what you are seeing and are getting bored. If there is a tweak needed by the UFC they need to give more points for control from the bottom, but they are boxing judges so they don't reall understand grappling.
As for whining, it sounds like you are the one whining about the way things are. Which just further proves that people like you, who do not understand fighting, shouldn't watch MMA.
As for the title of the thread, it was explained in previous post that it was refering more to the UFC not MMA in general by the thread starter . As for the Pride rules , all I said was that they have been back & forth on this rule . Whats the differance if it's been the same since 2000 ??? Prides been around alot longer then that ! So again you've made a weak attempt to make a point & further proved my point that they have been back & forth on this rule . BTW , I new the year , but it meant nothing to my argument . If anything it further proves my point . It kinda looks like the UFC is alittle behind the times
As for takdowns & submissions , we are talking more about putting in rules to stop the top control guy from stalling & recieving to much credit for control when he wasn't really doing much but holding .
As for more points for the bottom guy or the submission fighter . I myself addressed this in a previous post on this thread . I said I have seen fights were the submission fighter gets screwed because he is on the bottom & to much credit is given to the wrestler just because he is on top . That has always been one of my biggest problems with the UFC judging . BTW , I'm a wrestler & I can see that ! But , I try not to be byast , unlike some people
As far as the judges being boxing judges & not really understanding what the hell they are looking at , I have an idea . How about along with the rule changes that I been suggesting they either educate these boxing judges or get new judges who know what they are looking at ??? These guys don't even get boxing matches right half the time ! Again your argument only proves there needs to be changes .
People like me are the ones who are paying the fighters salaries
N
NotQuiteDead
Guest
IMO, it it weren't for submissions, mma would be just two guys going in there to hit eachother... I don't think training would be as important as raw aggression and strength. A lot of people already think mma is just unskilled brawling, imagine how they would percieve it if it was just striking and ground and pound.
Bammx2
2nd Black Belt
I'm not sure how many of you outside the UK have ever seen "Cage Rage"...
but it claims to be a "MMA" competition like Pride and whatnot...
All these things seem to be now is nothing more than a ToughMan competition in a funny shaped ring.
There is no style,technique.....nothing!
In 18 straight fights I have watched so far...ONE armbar!
It's all ground and pound! A few extreeeemely lame kicks,haymakers galour and straight to the ground....thats it!
I am just wondering,what exactly DOES a Mixed Martial Art consist of these days?
I thought the term was meant for someone who could stand up and fight as well as well as ground fight.
It all seems one sided in my opinion.
Rasslin with punches.
The last good "mma" fight saw was when Keith Hackney beat that 600lb sumo wrestler in UFC 3 or something like that.
Since then.....
:shrug:
But thats just my opinion
but it claims to be a "MMA" competition like Pride and whatnot...
All these things seem to be now is nothing more than a ToughMan competition in a funny shaped ring.
There is no style,technique.....nothing!
In 18 straight fights I have watched so far...ONE armbar!
It's all ground and pound! A few extreeeemely lame kicks,haymakers galour and straight to the ground....thats it!
I am just wondering,what exactly DOES a Mixed Martial Art consist of these days?
I thought the term was meant for someone who could stand up and fight as well as well as ground fight.
It all seems one sided in my opinion.
Rasslin with punches.
The last good "mma" fight saw was when Keith Hackney beat that 600lb sumo wrestler in UFC 3 or something like that.
Since then.....
:shrug:
But thats just my opinion
N
NotQuiteDead
Guest
Bammx2, have you ever trained in grappling? A lot of times people who have never grappled don't understand technique when they see it and think it's boring.
ace
Master of Arts
silatman said:
ok I may be real Late to answer this But Didn't Bj Knock down Matt with a Punch. Then Proceed to Choke him out???
As a MMA Fighter I am alway's searching to end the Fight by Submission
I for 1 prefer to Grapple then Strike.
How ever to Make it in this Sport You have to practise both.
The better fighter is the 1 who stay's 3 stepd ahead of the Game.
N
nhbSDMF
Guest
How is it possible that submissions have done anything but advance MMA as a whole? In no way have catch wrestling, BJJ, or any other type of submission fighting detracted from the level of competition in MMA, nor have they diminished its fan base.
silatman, in your opinion you would rather have standup only and no grappling? How does that make for better competition? The reason submissions in any form are being so widely adopted by practitioners of every art when it comes to MMA is simply because they work. Its the same reason wrestlers and BJJ players train western and thai boxing. Fighters must be multidimentional in order to succeed in MMA, no one side of the game is enough anymore. In the MMA competitions fighters do what is most functional, if they don't they will pay for it. If submissions were not useful, fighters would not employ the techniques. Same goes for standup.
Submissions also do not by any means extend the in-ring lives of MMA players either. Understand the dangers of a heelhook or even a straight arm bar and tell me that submissions are "safer" than stand up. It is very difficult not to flame you when you come in here and make a statement like "Submissions Killed MMA". I will instead simply ask that you learn more about submission fighting before making such wild accusations.
silatman, in your opinion you would rather have standup only and no grappling? How does that make for better competition? The reason submissions in any form are being so widely adopted by practitioners of every art when it comes to MMA is simply because they work. Its the same reason wrestlers and BJJ players train western and thai boxing. Fighters must be multidimentional in order to succeed in MMA, no one side of the game is enough anymore. In the MMA competitions fighters do what is most functional, if they don't they will pay for it. If submissions were not useful, fighters would not employ the techniques. Same goes for standup.
Submissions also do not by any means extend the in-ring lives of MMA players either. Understand the dangers of a heelhook or even a straight arm bar and tell me that submissions are "safer" than stand up. It is very difficult not to flame you when you come in here and make a statement like "Submissions Killed MMA". I will instead simply ask that you learn more about submission fighting before making such wild accusations.
nhbSDMF said:
Hey if you want to "flame me" flame away, I thought the idea of a forum was to hear the different opinions of alot of different people ALL of whom are valid, even yours.
I do understand and train for submissions and I stand by my comments.
When do you get the chance to tapout between strikes?
Most MMA fighters understand that what you do is what you get, ie, you snap my arm, someone will snap yours, you submit a guy with respect you will get the same in return.
You have to remember that MMA is a sport and as such is fully reliant on its fan base, its not only martial artists that watch it. As a martial artist you can watch a grappling match and appreciate it for the skill involved but what about the guy who has no training? Do you really think that he is going to put up with endless bouts of two guys rolling around on the floor? People watch MMA for the fight not for the subtleties involved in a submission. Why do you think that car racing is so popular, its not for the speed or the shiny paintwork, its for the chance to see a high speed crash. The same goes for MMA, in MY opinion the sport needs to continue to be flashy or it will lose its fan base.
Submission would be fine if it was used as just another tool in the arsenal of a MMA fighter but it is now used to such an extent that the stand up is now only used as a bridge to get a shoot or a takedown, there are very few fighters who now want to fight a stand up battle and so for me in my opinion submission has killed MMA.
N
nhbSDMF
Guest
I didn't flame you. I essentially said I wanted to but I didn't.
MMA is not about, nor should it be about uneducated spectators. If they want to see flashy martial arts then they can go rent a Jean Claude Van Damme movie (Ask Chuck Zito how effective that is...). MMA as a sport is about who is the best fighter and what techniques are most effective. Flashy techniques are not effective or you would see them used more often. Some fighters do prefer to play the stand up game and are successful with it, take Chuck Liddell for example. Other fighters prefer to grapple and work only that angle, like Royce Gracie. Most combine the two because it is the most effective. Chuck Liddell is a striker but trains submissions, Royce Gracie is a BJJ player but has worked with striking. If you are interested in seeing the best fights you can't have one side of the game without the other.
The attitude that any aspect of fighting (striking, submissions, or otherwise) should be limited or eliminated for the sake of the casual uneducated fan's entertainment will only produce incomplete fighters and diminish the quality of the sport. That is what will kill MMA.
MMA is not about, nor should it be about uneducated spectators. If they want to see flashy martial arts then they can go rent a Jean Claude Van Damme movie (Ask Chuck Zito how effective that is...). MMA as a sport is about who is the best fighter and what techniques are most effective. Flashy techniques are not effective or you would see them used more often. Some fighters do prefer to play the stand up game and are successful with it, take Chuck Liddell for example. Other fighters prefer to grapple and work only that angle, like Royce Gracie. Most combine the two because it is the most effective. Chuck Liddell is a striker but trains submissions, Royce Gracie is a BJJ player but has worked with striking. If you are interested in seeing the best fights you can't have one side of the game without the other.
The attitude that any aspect of fighting (striking, submissions, or otherwise) should be limited or eliminated for the sake of the casual uneducated fan's entertainment will only produce incomplete fighters and diminish the quality of the sport. That is what will kill MMA.
ace
Master of Arts
silatman said:
Since the eduction of the Public has grown since
the day's of the 1st UFC I think more people have grown to understand
what Martial Arts are.
When Royce won the 1st & 2nd UFC people went frenzy over
learning Ground Grappling. This shot Life into Martial Arts.
Up untill that point Most average people thought of Martial
Arts was what they saw In the Movies.
Today there is are people Questioning what they Learn
50 years ago that was Blasphamy.
This is "Y" MMA is about chooseing what Works.
Im not gonna put Any art down cause there is
Something for everyone.
MMA say's the Choice is Yours.
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