My objection to MMA

[matt.m]

We are sponsored by Fairtex and we send our MMA fighters to Bangkok to train at Fairtex's boxing camp with some of the best MT fighters/trainers in Thailand. This isn't the 'tourist' place, this is the concrete floor 'train for hours' a day place.
No one in MMA is saying it's 'real' fighting as in street/self defence fighting, it's a sport. Of course it has rules. It wasn't intended to simulate real fights, it's a sport! Most MMA fighters know that because it's a sport! It's the same as the full contact karate, the full contact NT fights,western boxing, they are sports!
If caught in a street fight/self defence situation how would a MT fight? Not like he does in the ring that's for sure.
Separate MMA from what happens outside the ring/cage please.

Great post. I do agree indeed.

 

[matt.m]

You know what annoys me, the romantic viewpoint that more tradional martial artists Seem to have on what martial arts actually are. ''It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.''

]That’s not a very intelligent statement……so are you saying then because I can watch a chuck norris film and copy a karate/Tkd side kick, tkd and karate are therefore easy to learn?..or because I can mimic a jab cross combo I can now jump into a bro boxing ring and compete??

Fyi…you do not swing your leg in a Muay Thai power angle kick, your leg comes up and then through, the power is generated by the turning of hip and the core muscles, this is actually a very unnatural movement and takes a long time to master...just because something looks simple it does not mean it is, I actually know of quite a view people that have left other arts for Muay Thai who struggled a great deal with the techniques particularly the 'simple' kicks.

''Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.''

Again a sweeping statement with no evidence to support it, I could say that tradional martial arts are more suited to the 'armchair martial artist' ones that focus more of theories of what 'might' happen if they strike your jugular with their index finger rather then what would happen if you actually did….a sweeping statement btw not one I believe.

Why do Olympic Tkd'ers where chest protectors? why I thought that would be obvious the same reason Olympic boxers where head gear…because they have to, it’s a point system in effect the aim is not to knock out or damage your opponent.

Muay Thai fighters in the first couple of interclub fights where padding too, the aim of this is to get used to fighting under pressure in a ring environment, it’s a learning tool, your not going to learn if after one kick you cannot fight……that’s professional Muay Thai

Its apparent from many of your posts that you have a biased dislike for MMA, its getting to a point now where you don’t seem to have any sound arguments against it, your verging on trolling bro

Something for you to think about, when you were at highschool I presume you learnt both maths, english and science at separate times and from different teaches that all specialised at those subjects, are you saying you think you would have done better ar school if you leanred all three from just one teacher that didnt specialise in either?, are you saying you feel you did not get complete learning from this 'buffet' stlye of teaching?maybe your maths is abit off because your english teacher didn’t teach you it??

Odin, my friend that is not what he meant at all. The point is a lot of folks come off the street after watching MMA events, JCVD movies, and the Karate Kid peppered with some "The Protector" or "War" and mimic but don't understand the reason or application of the technique.

 

[kumite]

I have not trained martial arts in years, but I see so much debate over MMA now. There are many things about MMA that I don't like, but I am admittedly ignorant...excpet for what I see occassionally on TV. I was referrred to this forum from another forum that had a decidedly traditional point of view in regards to martial arts. That forum got out of hand for a while, but it seems that the mods are clearing it up a bit. But in any event, I enjoy reading some of the threads on this forum.http://antimma.com/forums/index.php

 

[Tez3]

I have not trained martial arts in years, but I see so much debate over MMA now. There are many things about MMA that I don't like, but I am admittedly ignorant...excpet for what I see occassionally on TV. I was referrred to this forum from another forum that had a decidedly traditional point of view in regards to martial arts. That forum got out of hand for a while, but it seems that the mods are clearing it up a bit. But in any event, I enjoy reading some of the threads on this forum.http://antimma.com/forums/index.php

That is a really funny forum!
For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?

 

[FieldDiscipline]

That is arguably the most bizzare post I have seen to begin a thread. Well, on this site anyway...

Regarding zDom's point on chest protectors in TKD, I dont believe they have anything to do with point fighting, they are a neccesity in the reduction of injuries. I initially wrote elimination of injuries, but have had a good laugh at some memories since...

Matt, I particularly like your post at #40.

This thread doesnt have a very cheerful feel about it guys.

 

[kumite]

That is a really funny forum!
For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?

Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.

MMA predates 'traditional' martial arts.......it's not 'new'.....only 'New again'.

Greek Pankratiasts were doing 'MMA' nearly 3,000 years ago.....it was first introduced in the Olympics in 648 BCE. Boxing, Kicking, Wrestling, Submissions.....The only rules 'No biting, No eye gouging'.....sound familiar? The referee had a stick with which to 'chastise' anyone who violated the 'no biting/no eye gouging' rules! Matches ended one of two ways.....one opponent was knocked/rendered unconcious or they surrendered......sound familiar?

Some argue (though lets not get in to it) that when Alexander invaded in India in 326 BCE, that his introduction of Pankratian actually BEGAN the asian martial arts....as most martial arts trace their origin to India in that period. I won't argue whether that is true or not, but the evidence suggests it certainly COULD be! I suspect more a cross-pollination.....not as the SOLE source of asian martial arts.....but certainly a huge INFLUENCE on their creation!

So wouldn't it be ironic if all the 'traditional martial artists' that complain about MMA......have Pankratian to thank for their art? I suspect that the very notion is heresy and even stating it would get me excommunicated from any asian martial arts associations!

 

[sgtmac_46]

that was a well written response.

i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.

See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!

So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.

Where is this all going?:yoda:

Yeah, that 'quick kill' Karate worked pretty darn well back in the days of the UFC when there were no gloves and no times limits.......in fact, have you or any karate practitioner you've ever trained with actually 'killed' anyone with a single blow?

I think you're buying in to someone's 'Lethal' sales pitch more than reality.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Please note: "Buffet-style MMAers" definately does NOT apply to you in that you, as noted in your post, invested enough time in a single martial art to achieve the rank of black belt.

The type I specifically meant with that comment are those who go train 3 months with a Muay Thai trainer, 4 months with a BJJ trainer, 3 months with a boxing trainer (while spending most of their time pumping iron and in tattoo shops ) and then put on their resume:

"Expert in Muay Thai, BJJ and boxing"

What does it matter if you can fight well? What does a black belt matter if you can't?

'Take what is useful, leave the rest.' -Bruce Lee

 

[sgtmac_46]

That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense. Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and Bruce Lee in the '60s who created 'full contact karate' on the basis of boxing, taekwondo, and probably muay thai influences. Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do. Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.

A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.

Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.

i think hockey fights are very instructive! They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit. I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars. MMA guys are naked, wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic? BTW, that's a good topic for another thread!

Sophistry is misleading and dishonest argument.

And if you believe that MMA'ers are being unrealistic, and don't know how to fight.....pick a fight with one under whatever conditions you think are more realistic. That's the wonderful think about the martial arts world these days.....you can ALWAYS find someone willing to help you test out your theories under whatever conditions you wish to set forth.

 

[Tez3]

Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.

I wouldn't judge MMA by what you see on the TV to be honest. the grassroots MMA is brilliant. the fighters are true sportmen & women and are as respectful as you could wish for. The crowds are noisy in their support but rarely boo now, we had it at the beginning but we have some very good MCs who forcefully put a stop to it. The technical aspects are also appreciated by the crowd. I think what has happened now is that apart from the big shows here, Cage Rage and UFC the people who go to watch are no longer the type who go to see a bloodsport, we now have a big, true sports-fan base. I can't remember the last time I heard any smack talk or a fighter acting stupidly.
We had a fight night on Saturday, topping the bill was one of our fighters v a Polish fighter, absolute war in the cage, good standup and good floor techniques, Our fighter won by GnP. After they had got changed they sat down together to watch the video on someones phone, then they started swapping techniques, in the end we had to chuck them out as we were waiting to go home!the Polish lad was sad at losing but Sandy his opponent showed him how he'd beaten him and went over it with him which chuffed him up no end! That is the rule not the exception. many fighters pick up techniques and hints from their opponents after a fight, there's a lot of rolling around after the fight in the changing rooms as they show each other how they did things.
Everything on the TV is hyped up even the news reports, the real thing is always different, more real lol!

 

[exile]

I
We had a fight night on Saturday, topping the bill was one of our fighters v a Polish fighter, absolute war in the cage, good standup and good floor techniques, Our fighter won by GnP. After they had got changed they sat down together to watch the video on someones phone, then they started swapping techniques, in the end we had to chuck them out as we were waiting to go home!the Polish lad was sad at losing but Sandy his opponent showed him how he'd beaten him and went over it with him which chuffed him up no end! That is the rule not the exception. many fighters pick up techniques and hints from their opponents after a fight, there's a lot of rolling around after the fight in the changing rooms as they show each other how they did things.

Great story, Tez, I love to hear about this sort of thing.

Everything on the TV is hyped up even the news reports, the real thing is always different, more real lol!

Absolutely. The TV camera is a money-minting machine, really, and bloodlust rivaly, not genuine comradeship. is what brings in mass viewership, hence advertising $$.

 

[Tez3]

Great story, Tez, I love to hear about this sort of thing.
quote]
This is our fighter I was talking about on another show...Cpl. Sandy Geddes. 2 Parachute Regiment. yep we're proud of him!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You gotta love anyone who uses the A-Team theme for his ring walk.

 

[Tez3]

He dedicated his fight on Saturday to a friend who died in on active duty last week, he was a fellow Para but was in 22 SAS.
Half the crowd watching were Para recruits and othe infantry training recruits as well as many civilians, no trouble at all, no booing just a very good appreciative audience. It did get very noisy though lol.
It's these type of shows that are the grassroots of MMa where the real martial artists are.

 

[Andrew Green]

That is a really funny forum!
For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?

I get the impression someone is playing a joke on some over-zealous traditional styles, I put this in the same category as real Ultimate Power, only not as funny. But it's new, given time it might get there.

 

[Twin Fist]

What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. .......... my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.

This

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

I hate the whole mess, but

BUT
the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists

 

[sgtmac_46]

This

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

I hate the whole mess, but

BUT
the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists

What IS.....a martial art? Is boxing a martial art? Is wrestling? Is Pankratian? Or do we own consider a martial art some formal asian art steeped in bowing traditions and colorful dress?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic.....but I find the notion that 'this is a martial art that is not' kind of odd.....any method of combat taught by one person to another is a martial art to my thinking.

 

[Tez3]

This

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

I hate the whole mess, but

BUT
the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists

As I have said many many times, so many in fact I'm now saying it in my sleep, you are judging a great many people by the actions of a few you have seen on a TV programme!
A whole generation of people? hardly! i could list a whole lot of 'grievances' against so called TMA people who trash talk, who are disrespectful but I don't. I don't because it's those individuals I blame ,not their style or their sport. I don't blame TKD or all TKD practioners just because i meet one person who did TKD and was an idiot!
How dare you malign a sport I and a great many others love! You have absolutely no idea of who we are , what we do and how sportsmanlike, honourable and yes, traditional we actually are. You see something on the TV, read a few silly forums and wow all of a sudden MMAers are evil incarnate, yeah right! I don't think so really. In fact I think you are trying to troll.
A great many of the MMA fighters I know come from a TMA background, they don't trash talk, they areeverything you'd want and expect from a true martial artist. Oh and they don't demand contracts for training with them, they don't award belts for money, they don't give blacks belts to 6 year olds, they don't demand money for blackbelt clubs or extra sparrring lessons nor sparring gear. They work hard at their day jobs as doctors, police, IT specialists, nurses, social workers, army, Royal marines,teachers, professors, businesspeople,actors,students etc. yes we have some who are doormen but here that is now a proper profession with licensing and training.
My problem is with people who close their minds to everything except something they have thought of, that's fine but please don't then decide everyone else is wrong and you are right. You are missing a whole world of interesting possibilities when you do that, a whole world of things that if you opened your mind to you would be amazed and pleasantly surprised with. Also if you do that you don't come across as an arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief.

 

[Twin Fist]

Thanks Tez, for proving my point.

You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.

Which is exactly what I was talking about.

But, if you were offended, I apologize. I am just stating my opinion. An opinion which you then gave a perfect example of...........

Then to top it all off, you had to throw this in for kicks "arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief"

This makes me laugh. You seriously need to think about how to react when people say things like that. For one thing, if you have heard it that many times, there might be something to it. For another thing, ask yourself if you are not helping people think that way about MMA by reacting the way you do.

Tez,
everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that MMA has been a destructive force to the martial arts as a whole. You dont have to agree, and in fact, i know many who disagree with me. Good friends of mine disagree with me on this. And thats ok.

Heck there are TMA's who's actions I dislike much more than MMA. Places that turn out the 5 year old BB's? they make me wanna puke.

Buddy, it's all good, I am not offended, I hope I didnt hurt your feelings, if I did, I apologize again

but I have to tell you the truth, you didnt change my mind. You just re-enforced my opinion.

Take care man