My objection to MMA

[Tez3]

Firstly, I am not "man" nor am I your buddy, I find being called both of them offensive.
Yes, I was insulted by your post.
Show me where I trash talked TMAs.
I am a traditional martial arts instructor (TSD and Wado Ryu) and I teach and train MMA. I also promote MMA fight night with my instructor.
I insulted no one, I just gave my opinion on close minded people, I didn't accuse anyone here of being close minded did I? You gave your opinion on MMA people, I gave mine on the people I dislike. That's only fair.
Twin fists, you generalise far too much and unless you've been to the UK and know the MMA and TMA scene here as well as I do you don't actually know what your talking about when you talk about ALL MMAers. Talk about what is happening in your country but don't talk about the UK and European MMA world as if you know it.

 

[Andrew Green]

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

This has been going on long before MMA made it to North America. The Karate vs Kung Fu, Kung Fu vs Boxing, Karate vs TKD, etc. Trash talking other arts was a feature of martial arts long before anyone had heard of the Gracie family. Let's not even mention the Ninja issues of the 80's...

It's also a straw man argument. Look at the top MMA fighters right now, you got Judo, Wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, even karate being represented.

There are always fanboys that watch it on TV and run there mouth off, but armchair warriors that don't train anything have also been around for a very long time, they just have a voice now, thanks to the internet.

But if you look at people that actually train, and have some experience behind them, you will find very few that have the attitude you describe. Which is odd, because if you look at really traditional styles the elitist attitude seems to increase with time trained, but we can ignore that for scapegoating purposes I suppose?

What really gets objected to is training methods, and riddiculous claims, not styles. But I suppose it is easier to blame the UFC for your troubles then to deal with such things.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Thanks Tez, for proving my point.

You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.

Which is exactly what I was talking about.

But, if you were offended, I apologize. I am just stating my opinion. An opinion which you then gave a perfect example of...........

Then to top it all off, you had to throw this in for kicks "arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief"

This makes me laugh. You seriously need to think about how to react when people say things like that. For one thing, if you have heard it that many times, there might be something to it. For another thing, ask yourself if you are not helping people think that way about MMA by reacting the way you do.

Tez,
everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that MMA has been a destructive force to the martial arts as a whole. You dont have to agree, and in fact, i know many who disagree with me. Good friends of mine disagree with me on this. And thats ok.

Heck there are TMA's who's actions I dislike much more than MMA. Places that turn out the 5 year old BB's? they make me wanna puke.

Buddy, it's all good, I am not offended, I hope I didnt hurt your feelings, if I did, I apologize again

but I have to tell you the truth, you didnt change my mind. You just re-enforced my opinion.

Take care man

Actually, she gave out that you were making a wide-spread generalisations which is something can that be highly offensive. Like Tez, Im involved in MMA in Europe, specifically in Ireland. Like in the UK, MMA is more of a grass-roots situation than it is the US. Ive encountered the normal arguements of MMA vs TMA here, but quite frankly its mostly an online phenomeon. For the most part in real life people are just content to get on with their training. Ive only had one experience where I encountered any major bias on the subject, and it was in an Aikido dojo I trained at while also training in MMA.
I recieved quite a bit of flak for it from the Aikido sensei. That doesn't mean Im willing to tar everyone with the same brush, and make generalisations about TMA practioners.
As for the state of the youth of America. Its awfully illogical to claim that MMA is the ruining of a generation. Wouldn't it be a far more logical assumption that any youths with violent tendencies are that way as a result of their own nature or how they were raised, rather than a result of what they do in their spare time?

 

[sgtmac_46]

This has been going on long before MMA made it to North America. The Karate vs Kung Fu, Kung Fu vs Boxing, Karate vs TKD, etc. Trash talking other arts was a feature of martial arts long before anyone had heard of the Gracie family. Let's not even mention the Ninja issues of the 80's...

It's also a straw man argument. Look at the top MMA fighters right now, you got Judo, Wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, even karate being represented.

There are always fanboys that watch it on TV and run there mouth off, but armchair warriors that don't train anything have also been around for a very long time, they just have a voice now, thanks to the internet.

But if you look at people that actually train, and have some experience behind them, you will find very few that have the attitude you describe. Which is odd, because if you look at really traditional styles the elitist attitude seems to increase with time trained, but we can ignore that for scapegoating purposes I suppose?

What really gets objected to is training methods, and riddiculous claims, not styles. But I suppose it is easier to blame the UFC for your troubles then to deal with such things.

And keep in mind that young men engaged in competative combat sports tend to have big egos....and those egos tend to take inappropriate form from time to time, and that was the same whether the sports is MMA or Judo or Karate, etc....some learn respect and humility the hardway!

Cassius Clay, aka Mohammad Ali used to be called the 'Louisville Lip' because his mouth moved faster than his jab......

 

[Tez3]

Shotgun, have you had a chance to watch Aisling Daly at Cage Rage?
A cracking fighter! the SBG girls are making a name for themselves!
Yes, a slight detour off subject but relevant all the same. the future of MMA is in the hands of people like this and I consider it a safe and respectable future!

 

[FieldDiscipline]

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

I kind of see what you're getting at, but not how you've said it. I think the element that fits the desrcription above is either very new to training, or doesnt train at all. I have spoken to Tez off of this forum, and I can assure you she is no disrespectful punk. Quite the opposite actually. You cant make sweeping generalisations like that.

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

Once again I kind of see your logic, but MMA is a drop in the ocean. In that ocean I firmly include all contact sports, film and TV reports that show dead people.

but not many are martial artists

Here I do agree. I know many TMA and MMA practitioners who in my opinion are not martial artists.

I think this also reopens the discussion what is the definition of a martial art? This has been discussed at length on here with regrds to TKD. I do not believe combat sports to be the same thing as martial arts. This however does not preclude martial arts from being used in combat sports. Tae Kwon Do is very much a martial art, but I dont think sport TKD is a martial art. Would I be correct in the belief that MMA and UFC are two distinct entities, with MMAists doing UFC, but many MMA schools training for real life?

I don't blame TKD or all TKD practioners just because i meet one person who did TKD and was an idiot!

Charming. A saddening example Tez.

How dare you malign a sport I and a great many others love! You have absolutely no idea of who we are , what we do and how sportsmanlike, honourable and yes, traditional we actually are. You see something on the TV, read a few silly forums and wow all of a sudden MMAers are evil incarnate,

Twin Fist, incase I have missed the point (I've not re-read the whole thread again) whatexactly makes you feel this about MMA? I think Tez may have a point.

yes we have some who are doormen but here that is now a proper profession with licensing and training.

Which i can second having done it. I dont understand the relevance of doormen to this discussion, I know boxers, kickboxers, Tae Kwon Do men, MMA men and karateka who work doors as well as those that dont. You get bad in every crop, but many bl00dy good too.

Oxygen theif? You Arrser Tez!

Thanks Tez, for proving my point.

You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.

I've looked for the trashing twice and still cant find it.

Twin fists, you generalise far too much and unless you've been to the UK and know the MMA and TMA scene here as well as I do you don't actually know what your talking about when you talk about ALL MMAers. Talk about what is happening in your country but don't talk about the UK and European MMA world as if you know it.

This applies not just to MMA but TKD too I think. I have read a lot on here about the bad reputation of TKD. I just dont see that over here.

I have to say to bring balance to the argument that to be honest my experience of MMA has been pretty poor so far. In many places I thnik that 'buffet style' training in various arts produces jacks of all trades who are masters of none. This doesnt make all MMAists poor (I have met some who are very good too) or disrespectful punks. Maybe I need to meet more MMAists.

Its up to them what they do anyway. I know people who dont believe TKD works. It does. I dont care what they think as long as they dont try and force their opinions onto other people. I know, thats what matters.

I've just realised that I have actually come to no conclusion with this, sorry for rambling! I hope there is something of use in there somewhere.

 

[Tez3]

Fielddiscipline, that was a good post!

Oxygen theif? You Arrser Tez! ROFL (Btw Sandy the fighter I posted up is a mod and posts a lot.)

Actually the TKD person wasn't an idiot he was a pervert! He would have been a pervert whatever style he did or didn't do. You can only blame him for that, nothing and no one else. I train with a TKD club every so often as a friend of mine runs it. Good club, a lot of 'ouchs' when sparring lol! their training is as every bit realistic as ours when I'm doing MMA. The drawback for me and this is a personal one is that I'm unable to do the high kicks. That's my disadvantage not TKDs!

I mentioned doormen because it seems to come up quite often in criticisms of MMA, that only doormen and gangsters do it.
When I was a chilkd in London it was boxing that was associated with that, everyone knew the Krays who loved their boxing.

The UFC is a company not a style!

I agree with the idea that people can do whatever they want as long as they don't force it on others, I just ask that an open mind is kept.

 

[MJS]

I think that MMA has alot to offer. IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts. The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things. Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks. Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?

As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show. If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while. Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV. Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it. Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***? No, of course not. You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.

As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me. I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall. But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well. Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s. Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.

 

[MJS]

This

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

I hate the whole mess, but

BUT
the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists

For what its worth, I'd bet if you really looked at some of the TMAs around today, you'd still see that cocky, arrogant attitude with those guys as well.

 

[Tez3]

I think that MMA has alot to offer. IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts. The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things. Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks. Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?

As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show. If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while. Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV. Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it. Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***? No, of course not. You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.

As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me. I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall. But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well. Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s. Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.[/quote]

I think we are going back to what we usually advise newbies who are looking for a style.... that they have to take into account what they are physically able to do. As I said TKD isn't really for me as I find the high kicks, as well as the high jumping kicks difficult (it's why I teach children _ I can kick to their heads) I don't do Capoiera either lol! I find BJJ suits me as does MMA where low kicks are the norm. Now if I were younger......... what wouldn't I do!

 

[MJS]

I think that MMA has alot to offer. IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts. The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things. Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks. Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?

As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show. If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while. Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV. Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it. Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***? No, of course not. You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.

As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me. I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall. But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well. Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s. Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.[/quote]

I think we are going back to what we usually advise newbies who are looking for a style.... that they have to take into account what they are physically able to do. As I said TKD isn't really for me as I find the high kicks, as well as the high jumping kicks difficult (it's why I teach children _ I can kick to their heads) I don't do Capoiera either lol! I find BJJ suits me as does MMA where low kicks are the norm. Now if I were younger......... what wouldn't I do!

Good points.

 

[Twin Fist]

Tez,
I have already apologized TWICE.
Since you find "buddy" offensive i will apologize AGAIN. I am sorry, I didnt mean to offend you, I was just trying to be friendly.

But dont push it. You are still comming across as rather agressive, and it isnt doing much to change my original opinion.

Just as I wasnt trying to offend you by calling you "buddy" I am sure that you didnt mean to trash talk when you posted this:

"Oh and they don't demand contracts for training with them, they don't award belts for money, they don't give blacks belts to 6 year olds, they don't demand money for blackbelt clubs or extra sparrring lessons nor sparring gear."

But it sure seemed like it. If that wasnt your intention, fine. I will believe you. BTW- all those things annoy the heck out of me too.

Tez,
I never used the word "ALL" so you are accusing me of something I didnt do. There is no all, if there is ONE thing that is certain, it is that there is always an exception. To everything.

You are very defensive of your MMA stuff, and thats cool. I dont care. I dont like MMA, but you shouldnt care since it doesnt effect you in the slightest.

Or do you feel any disagreement is grounds for confrontation. I already admitted that I dont expect anyone to agree with me. Hell, i think Purple Rain was one of the best movies of the 80's, not many people agree with me on that either.....and thats ok. Take it easy

Andrew,
I hate trash talking from anyone. It is the worst kind of dis-respect, IMO. So I agree with you there.

Shotgun,
I wasnt referring to the youth of america as a whole, and I am sorry you got the impression. I was referring to the MMA "fanboys" and the like.

MJS,
you are right, cocky arrogant attitudes are everywhere these days, and I hate that. My biggest fear is that martial arts has lost it's "respect". I see it in TMA as well, but i see it more in MMA circles. Thats just my opinion, disagree if you like, dont take it personally.

For the third time, I apologize to anyone that my opinion offended. This is what i think. If you disagree, just say so. Dont attack. For one thing, it just re-enforces that opinion, for another, it is annoying as hell.

 

[Tez3]

ROFL at middle aged, middle class woman coming on aggressive!

:uhyeah:

it's always useful to know what annoys someone though, in case I want to do it again LOL!

 

[Tez3]

Handbags at dawn!!

 

[Twin Fist]

I apologize, three times in fact.

I point out that you were flat out wrong i what you accused me of saying.

Instead of being cool you make jokes.

yeah, i was REALLY off base......

Lesson learned, thanks

Have a good day tez

 

[Tez3]

I apologize, three times in fact.

I point out that you were flat out wrong i what you accused me of saying.

Instead of being cool you make jokes.

yeah, i was REALLY off base......

Lesson learned, thanks

Have a good day tez

Good god, I'm English I don't do "cool"!
I do stiff upper lip,good manners, tea and crumpets, brollies and green wellies, scruffy spaniels, Barbour jackets and never ever accuse people of anything, we just sniff and carrying on talking about the weather!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Mustn't forget the cricket, eh wot?

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Oh dear.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

What, did I butcher my British-ism?

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear.

My dear, it could have been far worse! :roflmao:

Anyway to get the debate back on track. here is part of a documentary on a friend of mine and one of his fights. See what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkpsY8RFmeg&feature=related