Submissions has killed MMA

[Marginal]

Funny, I recall watching that fight (Hackney v Yarborough) and thinking "doesn't this guy know how to do anything other than club the guy with his forearm." I'm not sure that is the fight I would pick as an exemplar of "style and technique."

Lamont

I was watching one of thsoe news magazine shows (could've been Dateline or not...) That featured an interview with Hackney on that fight. He basically said "Nothing I was doing was hurting him, so I started pounding on the base of his skull when he fell down."

Then the reporter played the clip in slow mo and said that hitting someone on the base of the skull likee that was a DEATH BLOW. Went from there to comments from Mcain on how evil the sport was...

 

[Shogun]

Then the reporter played the clip in slow mo and said that hitting someone on the base of the skull likee that was a DEATH BLOW. Went from there to comments from Mcain on how evil the sport was...

Oh its so evil. even more "eviler" than skelitor. haha. j/k

The base of the brain is where common motor functions such as movement are derived from. due to this, the body has created a unique defense called the skull to protect it. It takes an insane amount of pressure to actually kill someone hitting them there. what hackney was doing would simply be stopping him from getting up. Now, if had hit lower, about 4 inches, it wouldnt take as much pressure because there lies the Vertabrae. obviously I am treating this wonderful bit of priceless medical info as kind of talking down to calling hitting the base of the skull a death blow. can it cause death? absolutely. will it? most likely not.

 

[SammyB57]

Silatman - If you want stand-up, go watch Boxing or Muay Thai.

Complaining that submissions has killed MMA is ridonkulous.... Submissions is exactly what makes MMA different and enjoyable to many people.

 

[silatman]

What I want in MMA is a ROUNDED fighter and therefore an exciting fight, yes this does include groung fighting and submission.
My complaint stems from the fact that some of fights now days rely too much on submission to the detriment of the sport.
When the fight is fought mainly on the ground the fight is BORING to the spectators.
Use submissions when they are appropriate not as the entire match, if you want to be a submission expert go play BJJ and keep out of Mixed touraments.
Surely Mixed means the entire fighting arsenal not a couple of aspects.
As mentioned previously the fighters are all training for striking as well as for ground work so why dont they show case all their skills, if they cant mix it up during stand up what the hell are they doing in a professional arena.

 

[SammyB57]

People probably take fights to the ground because they know they can't win standing up.
And Vice Versa.

example: When Randy takes Chuck down, Randy beats Chuck. When Randy doesn't take Chuck down, he gets knocked out.

 

[silatman]

People probably take fights to the ground because they know they can't win standing up.
And Vice Versa.

example: When Randy takes Chuck down, Randy beats Chuck. When Randy doesn't take Chuck down, he gets knocked out.

If you could only watch one fight which would it be, the knockout or the submission?

My point is that I believe the majority of spectators would pay to see the knock out.
Fans = Money, Money = more MMA

 

[Ubermint]

If you could only watch one fight which would it be, the knockout or the submission?

If it's well executed, with good technical groundwork, probably the sub.

My point is that I believe the majority of spectators would pay to see the knock out.
Fans = Money, Money = more MMA

Tell you what, we'll leave the shamanist cannibalistic arts to you silat guys and we'll worry about the whole cagefighting thing, ok?

Which MMA events have you watched anyway?

 

[psi_radar]

Is it just me or has the introduction of BJJ and submission Martial arts killed what MMA was or could have been. After watching UFC lately it seems that the only reason people are striking these days is to find an opening for a shoot to go to ground then look for a submission. When BJ Penn took the belt off Matt Hughes is their anybody who really believes that he was better fighter. He was without question the better submission guy but I think that if it was a stand-up fight the fight A - would have been alot better and B - could have resulted in a different outcome. I can understand the reasoning that the life span of a professional MMA fighter might be significantly reduced if submission wasn't allowed but I think that if that seriously was the case then we wouldn't see such dedicated and talented Muay Thai fighters around. I for one think that MMA should take a step back and really think about how the rules that they employ have changed the face of MMA and I think that the fan base is going to suffer for it. If I want to see rounds and divisions I will watch K1 or professional boxing. Bring back your style onto mine or at least fight to the finish not till a bell goes.

Sorry, this is one of the few times I haven't read through the entire thread before respondng, but I feel compelled to respond immediately to this. Basically, you're corresponding a sport, and a very regulated and specialized sport, to a style of fighting. When I think of MMA, I think of training for the stand-up game and the ground-game with no rules whatsoever.

In real fights, there are no rules. However, you can't train that way. Whenever I learn or teach a lock, it's basically, "ok, at this point, you can either make the person submit , break, or hyperextend that bone or joint. We'll now learn that maneuver to the point of discomfort."

If you're in school that doesn't teach how to disable your opponent, just submit them, then you're probably in the wrong school if you want to learn self defense. It's sport-oriented, just like TKD has a sport-oriented faction.

UFC is a gentle form of combat compared to self defense. May not look like it, but it is.

Personally, I think the UFC does a great job keeping the fighting competitive without endangering the fighters. It's safer than boxing, though often more bloody. It's great sport. "Sport" should be emphasized.

In my time as a wrestler, I remember wrestling seven matches in a day. Then I wrestled the next day in practice. MMA isn't a bloodsport. It's a war of wills and tactics; whether success is derived by a strike or submission is really irrelevant. It's the first who says "UNCLE" by TKO, KO, or submission.

There's so much more to say here, but I'll think I'll leave it at that.

 

[sgtmac_46]

If you could only watch one fight which would it be, the knockout or the submission?

My point is that I believe the majority of spectators would pay to see the knock out.
Fans = Money, Money = more MMA

I think the point of MMA was to determine what works, as close to realistically as possible, in a real fight. It was submission guys who STARTED MMA. MMA without submissions = Boxing/Kick Boxing. We already have boxing and kick boxing. I like boxing, I like kick boxing. They already exist. If I want to see knockouts, devoid of submissions, i'll watch Boxing or K1. If I want to watch well rounded fighters using a wide array of tools at their disposal to win the fight, I watch MMA.

Answer to the question :"If you could only watch one fight which would it be, the knockout or the submission?" Isn't it wonderful we live in a world where we can have both. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

 

[SammyB57]

In real fights, there are no rules. However, you can't train that way. Whenever I learn or teach a lock, it's basically, "ok, at this point, you can either make the person submit , break, or hyperextend that bone or joint. We'll now learn that maneuver to the point of discomfort."

If you're in school that doesn't teach how to disable your opponent, just submit them, then you're probably in the wrong school if you want to learn self defense. It's sport-oriented, just like TKD has a sport-oriented faction.

UFC is a gentle form of combat compared to self defense. May not look like it, but it is.
.

You realise if someone doesn't tap to a joint lock, they are in danger of serious injury? The moves in the UFC aren't just intended to submit, they are very capable of ending a career. If people couldn't tap out to heel hooks, MMA careers would be very short.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You realise if someone doesn't tap to a joint lock, they are in danger of serious injury? The moves in the UFC aren't just intended to submit, they are very capable of ending a career. If people couldn't tap out to heel hooks, MMA careers would be very short.

I heard that. I accidentally dislocated someone's ankle using a heel-hook. They didn't even feel the pain until it popped.

 

[psi_radar]

You realise if someone doesn't tap to a joint lock, they are in danger of serious injury? The moves in the UFC aren't just intended to submit, they are very capable of ending a career. If people couldn't tap out to heel hooks, MMA careers would be very short.

Whether to tap or not is up to the athletes. Hopefully the refs can step in at the appropriate moments, but those moments are really hard to discern when it comes to locks. Of course the same techniques that can deliver pain taken a step further can deliver permanent damage.

 

[SammyB57]

I guess the summary to this thread should be....
Chokes, armbars, shoulder locks, leg locks are boring and should be taken out of MMA since in a street encounter it would be dumb to try to choke your opponent out or break his arm.

Okay, so I'm being a little facetious....

 

[SammyB57]

Whether to tap or not is up to the athletes. Hopefully the refs can step in at the appropriate moments, but those moments are really hard to discern when it comes to locks. Of course the same techniques that can deliver pain taken a step further can deliver permanent damage.

Tim Sylvia vs. Frank Mir. The ref stepped in when Tim's forearm broke. I kind of wish it would have went on, just out of curiosity whether Tim would have had a chance with one arm, but it was probably in the fighter's best interest for the ref to stop the fight.

If you watch the actual fight, you can see where the bone pops. It broke in two places and severed a tendon. Tim had to undergo surgery and was out for months.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Tim Sylvia vs. Frank Mir. The ref stepped in when Tim's forearm broke. I kind of wish it would have went on, just out of curiosity whether Tim would have had a chance with one arm, but it was probably in the fighter's best interest for the ref to stop the fight.

If you watch the actual fight, you can see where the bone pops. It broke in two places and severed a tendon. Tim had to undergo surgery and was out for months.

To paraphrase Mir at the end of the fight "Next time I can just rip it off."

 

[Shogun]

What I want in MMA is a ROUNDED fighter and therefore an exciting fight, yes this does include groung fighting and submission.
My complaint stems from the fact that some of fights now days rely too much on submission to the detriment of the sport.
When the fight is fought mainly on the ground the fight is BORING to the spectators.
Use submissions when they are appropriate not as the entire match, if you want to be a submission expert go play BJJ and keep out of Mixed touraments.
Surely Mixed means the entire fighting arsenal not a couple of aspects.
As mentioned previously the fighters are all training for striking as well as for ground work so why dont they show case all their skills, if they cant mix it up during stand up what the hell are they doing in a professional arena.

I was gonna post a comment but someone got to it before me:

I think the point of MMA was to determine what works, as close to realistically as possible, in a real fight. It was submission guys who STARTED MMA. MMA without submissions = Boxing/Kick Boxing. We already have boxing and kick boxing. I like boxing, I like kick boxing. They already exist. If I want to see knockouts, devoid of submissions, i'll watch Boxing or K1. If I want to watch well rounded fighters using a wide array of tools at their disposal to win the fight, I watch MMA.

The only part I disagree with in that post is the whole "what works in a real fight". I am NOT debating it, (as many have) Its just we are talking about a different animal here. However, it does prove two things: knowing all aspects gives you a serious edge on the street; and before MMA, groundfighting was overly neglected.
but honestly, submissions work and that what people will use to win. its no sports entertainment, its competition.

 

[mad_boxer]

I SERIOUSLY disagree with a lot of what has been said about limited skills. yes there arent a HUGE variety of techniques used but this is because only the most effective ones are used. when u r against a serious opponent who wants 2 knock u out why would u go for a move that is less effective and harder to pull off than simply the most effective one? the answer is you wouldnt. there are many proffessional grapplers in the ufc do u think it would be wise to risk missing a headkick to the likes of Matt Hughes or Mike Kyle? i dont think so, you would be slammed to the matt so hard and fast. or trying to pull fancy ineffective submission holds on Royce Gracie hell no u would be royally screwed. i personally think that the ufc has done a good job of weeding out some ineffective showy techniques and forced fighters t use only the best

 

[SAVAGE]

MMA is MMA...I am a MMAist...TKD,HKD,Judo,Boxing,Goju Ryu (yes I do find time to have a life). I dont compete...MMA is not about a cage...it is like any other martial art a means of defending yourself....if you look at the techs that are used to submit...they are legitamate bone snappers...so you decide whether you are a fighter or a sportsman!

 

[Josh]

I agree.




When the UFC first came out. I remember seeing Commercials about it and they had tapes at Blockbuster of it and it was Awesome.



They wore NO gloves and the guys were much BIGGER and The Styles were Way More Varied.



It was Karate vs. Wrestling
Wing Chung vs. Kickboxing
Etc...

Just everyday Randomn martial artists knocking on each other. You don't even remember their names.





Nowadays, i don't even wanna watch it. It stinks!!! Pride is still Efficient but i don't know why. They're the same thing right?


Anways, UFC is too Modernized and too Overrated now. Celebreties now show up at these "Spike TV" events just to make themselves look better but oh well, stupid mess. And that dumb show "Ultimate Fighter" stinks!!! They get these clean cut/whiney/bratty 20 year old BJJ practicioners and the house is just full of drama. What a dumb show.


It's all boring. I don't even like Chuck Liddel's style, and they all just dance around the ring and throw attakcs every now and then but the Crowd and Announcers STILL GO WILD!!!!!! They need to throw their Food in the ring and let them have a Food Fight instead of a boring MMA fight!!!