Tae Kwon Do in MMA

[Marginal]

That's what I've been seeing.

Oh SNAP!

 

[tradrockrat]

That's what I've been seeing. This is an MMA forum. Let's be serious here. Would you really want to stick a pure TKD fighter in the octagon? It's inhumane for the poor TKD guinea pig.

Tom

Would want to stick a pure Greco Roman wrestler in there? With no knowledge of chokes or kickboxing?

How about a "pure" Judo practitioner?

MMA isn't about purity. Tom has nailed it on the head, but maybe he should take it further than just TKD.

JMHO.

PS - point sparring is (by and large) in my experience; taught wrong, practiced wrong, and developed wrong. It is a joke more often than not. NQD said it perfectly!

BUT

When done right, it is can be a beautiful thing to behold. I prefer continuous - contact point fighting, but the old "score a point and stop" method used to mean something, and in a few places, it still does.

 

[tomthlee]

Would want to stick a pure Greco Roman wrestler in there? With no knowledge of chokes or kickboxing?

How about a "pure" Judo practitioner?

MMA isn't about purity. Tom has nailed it on the head, but maybe he should take it further than just TKD.

JMHO.

PS - point sparring is (by and large) in my experience; taught wrong, practiced wrong, and developed wrong. It is a joke more often than not. NQD said it perfectly!

BUT

When done right, it is can be a beautiful thing to behold. I prefer continuous - contact point fighting, but the old "score a point and stop" method used to mean something, and in a few places, it still does.

Examples of pure wrestling/judo stylists holding their own:

- If you date back to UFC 3: The American Dream, Christophe Leninger (a black belt in judo) was able to hold his own against Ken Shamrock (King of Pancrase) for a good five minutes (there were no time limits), which was one of the longest UFC matches in history at the time. Shamrock couldn't pass his guard at the start, couldn't work a choke when he had his back, and wound up winning the fight with strikes on the ground.

- Ultimate Fighter, Season 1: Josh Koscheck (collegiate wrestler, limited MMA training on the show) defeats Chris Leben (brawler with experience in MMA) via unanimous decision. People criticized Koscheck for relying on his pure wrestling skills and being a "blanket" on Leben, but the fact is that he made Leben his ***** with his well-trained takedowns and hold-downs.

In contrast, pure TKD stylists have rarely, if ever, even faired well against trained MMA stylists.

- Lodune Sincaid (claims to prefer the art of taekwondo) gets KO'd by Bobby Southworth on TUF 1. He comes back for the finale to fight Nathan Quarry, and just gets out-boxed. He eats a right cross to the tummy, followed by strikes that caused him to literally 'run away' from Quarry during the match.

- Ultimate Fight Night: Gideon Ray (1st dan TKD, state and national champion) takes on TUF 1's Mike Swick: Swick KO's Gideon in less than 20 seconds.

It's a hard ball to swallow, but when it comes to NHB competition, certain styles are superior to others. Boxing, Muay Thai, and the various grappling sports tend to dominate the "bread and butter" of MMA.

Tom

 

[tradrockrat]

Examples of pure wrestling/judo stylists holding their own:

- If you date back to UFC 3: The American Dream, Christophe Leninger (a black belt in judo) was able to hold his own against Ken Shamrock (King of Pancrase) for a good five minutes (there were no time limits), which was one of the longest UFC matches in history at the time. Shamrock couldn't pass his guard at the start, couldn't work a choke when he had his back, and wound up winning the fight with strikes on the ground.

He still lost and that's what counts in competition. It's not enough to hold your own.

- Ultimate Fighter, Season 1: Josh Koscheck (collegiate wrestler, limited MMA training on the show) defeats Chris Leben (brawler with experience in MMA) via unanimous decision. People criticized Koscheck for relying on his pure wrestling skills and being a "blanket" on Leben, but the fact is that he made Leben his ***** with his well-trained takedowns and hold-downs.

He had MMA training even if it WAS limited, but relied on what he knew best. It came down to a decision because he couldn't finish it - he didn't know how. Why did they criticize him? Cause they knew that relying exclusively on his wrestling would ultimately get him beaten more often than not. It's not enough in MMA.

In contrast, pure TKD stylists have rarely, if ever, even faired well against trained MMA stylists.

- Lodune Sincaid (claims to prefer the art of taekwondo) gets KO'd by Bobby Southworth on TUF 1. He comes back for the finale to fight Nathan Quarry, and just gets out-boxed. He eats a right cross to the tummy, followed by strikes that caused him to literally 'run away' from Quarry during the match.

- Ultimate Fight Night: Gideon Ray (1st dan TKD, state and national champion) takes on TUF 1's Mike Swick: Swick KO's Gideon in less than 20 seconds.

It's a hard ball to swallow, but when it comes to NHB competition, certain styles are superior to others. Boxing, Muay Thai, and the various grappling sports tend to dominate the "bread and butter" of MMA.

Tom

Not going to argue your last point cause I agree with you. My point is only this - MMA is about learning multiple styles, and techniques. That's the whole point of it. If somebody chooses to use TKD as their basis for their striking game they may very well make it work, but they better know how to rumble on the ground, just as that wrestler better be able to punch and kick if he wants to be a champion.

 

[tomthlee]

He still lost and that's what counts in competition. It's not enough to hold your own.


He had MMA training even if it WAS limited, but relied on what he knew best. It came down to a decision because he couldn't finish it - he didn't know how. Why did they criticize him? Cause they knew that relying exclusively on his wrestling would ultimately get him beaten more often than not. It's not enough in MMA.


Not going to argue your last point cause I agree with you. My point is only this - MMA is about learning multiple styles, and techniques. That's the whole point of it. If somebody chooses to use TKD as their basis for their striking game they may very well make it work, but they better know how to rumble on the ground, just as that wrestler better be able to punch and kick if he wants to be a champion.

So you dismiss Leninger's efforts as "he lost and that's all that counts," yet at the same time you dismiss Koscheck's ring ability even when he decisively won his match? What happened to your consistent theory that should state "Leben lost and that's all that counts"?

I agree, MMA does involve completing whatever your base style is. But in the case of TKD, it's not just a matter of adding some grappling training in to complement TKD, but it's a matter of completely overhauling your system of fighting. You're speaking as if a TKD player and an amateur wrestler are on an even playing field in a full contact fight. That's just not true. I know it's politically correct to say that "it's the figher and not the style," but CERTAIN STYLES ADAPT BETTER TO AN MMA ENVIRONMENT. TKD simply isn't designed to handle the heat of a full contact fight.

Tom

 

[tradrockrat]

So you dismiss Leninger's efforts as "he lost and that's all that counts," yet at the same time you dismiss Koscheck's ring ability even when he decisively won his match? What happened to your consistent theory that should state "Leben lost and that's all that counts"?

I agree, MMA does involve completing whatever your base style is. But in the case of TKD, it's not just a matter of adding some grappling training in to complement TKD, but it's a matter of completely overhauling your system of fighting. You're speaking as if a TKD player and an amateur wrestler are on an even playing field in a full contact fight. That's just not true. I know it's politically correct to say that "it's the figher and not the style," but CERTAIN STYLES ADAPT BETTER TO AN MMA ENVIRONMENT. TKD simply isn't designed to handle the heat of a full contact fight.

Tom

I'm not dismissing anything. There's a miscommunication here. The fact that a great Judo fighter lost proves MY point, not yours. One system isn't enough for MMA. As for Lebbin, he did lose. Koscheck WAS criticized. He DIDN'T finish off his opponent, he won a judges decision. It seemed pretty clear that if he had been a better rounded fighter (ie finishing moves and chokes) he would have won quickly. He was the better fighter - that time.

All the rest comes down to perceptions of what a martial Art is - in this specific case, your idea of TKD versus mine. There will be no meeting of the minds here because we seem to be traveling along two different preconceptions of what TKD is and can do. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

BTW - I once saw a TKD student with 8 months of experience drop a college wrestler with 20 pounds on him in the street. It was over in about 20 seconds start to finish. It isn't political correctness, its a fact.

 

[tomthlee]

I'm not dismissing anything. There's a miscommunication here. The fact that a great Judo fighter lost proves MY point, not yours. One system isn't enough for MMA. As for Lebbin, he did lose. Koscheck WAS criticized. He DIDN'T finish off his opponent, he won a judges decision. It seemed pretty clear that if he had been a better rounded fighter (ie finishing moves and chokes) he would have won quickly. He was the better fighter - that time.

All the rest comes down to perceptions of what a martial Art is - in this specific case, your idea of TKD versus mine. There will be no meeting of the minds here because we seem to be traveling along two different preconceptions of what TKD is and can do. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

BTW - I once saw a TKD student with 8 months of experience drop a college wrestler with 20 pounds on him in the street. It was over in about 20 seconds start to finish. It isn't political correctness, its a fact.

Koscheck won a judge's decision because he dominated the fight. That's all there is to it. Amateur wrestling works in MMA. If it didn't, you wouldn't see Matt Hughes slamming opponents around or Randy Couture using textbook Greco Roman takedowns. Judo techniques also work in MMA (a large portion of BJJ has been derived from Judo).

The "I once saw this guy kick that guy's ***" argument isn't a fact. Got a video of it? Pictures? Even a story in the newspaper? Contact information of both parties involved in the altercation? If so, send me a PM and I'll give you my email address. Otherwise, it's not a fact, rather just some anecdote you happened to drop in order to support your point. And no one really cares about a little story if there's no way to verify it.

This conversation is about mixed martial arts competition. Let's be empirical about this. I am very tired of reading philosophy after philosophy that "it just depends on how you use TKD" and "TKD can work in MMA if we just worked grappling into the system." Philosophies are great to write books about. But if you want to talk about facts and results, then give me facts and results.

In my opinion, it's obvious and has been proven that taekwondo doesn't belong in mixed martial arts competition. When the held they K-1 fights in Korea, there was an opening act of little kiddie black belts doing forms and high kicks, but that's where the TKD ended.

Tom

 

[tomthlee]

Not going to argue your last point cause I agree with you. My point is only this - MMA is about learning multiple styles, and techniques. That's the whole point of it. If somebody chooses to use TKD as their basis for their striking game they may very well make it work, but they better know how to rumble on the ground, just as that wrestler better be able to punch and kick if he wants to be a champion.

As a side note, you don't agree with my last point. Your argument is that a skilled TKD player can do well in MMA if they learn the needed elements required to be a "complete" fighter. My point is that TKD fighters with MMA experience still don't fare too well. Gideon Ray and Lodune Sincaid BOTH have quite a bit of MMA training (more experience than Koscheck) in addition to their TKD credentials. Yet, they both consistently lose to MMA players while Koscheck (a wrestler) continues to excel in MMA.

Tom

 

[tradrockrat]

The "I once saw this guy kick that guy's ***" argument isn't a fact. Got a video of it? Pictures? Even a story in the newspaper? Contact information of both parties involved in the altercation? If so, send me a PM and I'll give you my email address. Otherwise, it's not a fact, rather just some anecdote you happened to drop in order to support your point. And no one really cares about a little story if there's no way to verify it.

This conversation is about mixed martial arts competition. Let's be empirical about this. I am very tired of reading philosophy after philosophy that "it just depends on how you use TKD" and "TKD can work in MMA if we just worked grappling into the system." Philosophies are great to write books about. But if you want to talk about facts and results, then give me facts and results.

In my opinion, it's obvious and has been proven that taekwondo doesn't belong in mixed martial arts competition. When the held they K-1 fights in Korea, there was an opening act of little kiddie black belts doing forms and high kicks, but that's where the TKD ended.


Tom

So even though I saw something with my own eyes it's not a fact...whatever man.

You go ahead and continue to summarily dismiss anything that doesn't fit your world view, but were really not even on the same page here as I have tried to point out. I'm actually trying to talk about mixed martial arts and the need for multiple systems and techniques, while you are focusing on what you believe to be my position about TKD. What I'm TRYING to get across is that even if TKD ISN'T AND CAN'T BE as good a base martial art for the octagon (your position, not mine - but lets go ahead and pretend that there isn't a human being on earth that could pull it off...) as other styles, as a MMA fighter you need to train other styles ANYWAY!

NOBODY fights a pure style in MMA! So why couldn't a TKD guy train BJJ and Muay Thai and whatever else he felt he needed to get competent? And why couldn't he use a front kick in the octagon that he learned as a white belt in TKD? Or would you insist that the kick was actually Muay Thai because that fits your world view better?

So lets rewind here and stick to my opinions as I posted them - because it IS a fact that this is what I said - you're reading between the lines and finding positions I never put forth.

1. I DO believe that a fighter of ANY SYSTEM could invest time in learning other techniques that his system lacked to make themselves well rounded and effective in the octagon. The End. Notice I mention no specific style, but I do acknowledge that this thread is about TKD, so that is the default art for this discussion, though I could have easily said Escrima, Capoera, etc. In this respect, it comes down to training, effort, determination, natural ability, etc., etc., etc. - sounds like the man and not the system to me...

2. NO ONE SYSTEM IS ENOUGH - even Greco Roman wrestling or Judo or Muay Thai - even if they do seem to be more readily adaptable to the rules of MMA. This is the point I WASN'T arguing with you. I feel some systems are more readily adaptable, but that doesn't mean that other styles won't work. For the record, I've got 25 years experience in Martial Arts, started at age 8 - Bando. I began kickboxing (Lethway / Thiang) at age 17. I began studying a traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu style at age 21 as well as the Python (ground fighting) system in Bando. I've got a grand total of 18 MONTHS in TKD, and I started training in it for exercise. I think it's safe to say that I'm not an expert in it... but I have learned a few new techniques that I didn't know before. How could that be anything but good?

3. As I said earlier - If you want to fight Olympic style TKD - train for it! If you want to fight MMA - Train for THAT! Maybe I should have mentioned that Olympic TKD isn't the only thing a good, comprehensive TKD school teaches because that's not all TKD contains... I figured we all knew that - my bad.

4. FACTS AS TOLD BY YOU:
A pure Judo fighter lost.

BJJ uses Judo techniques very effectively. So that would make it a MMA, right? The MMA wins while the single art loses.]

A wrestler with limited MMA experience is winning fights. OK, so he's a MMA fighter who is primarily but not exclusively a wrestler. In other words, he is a MMA.

So far, most MMA guys who rely on TKD as their primary art lose. As I said before - no argument on that point, I concede that point, point taken, etc. - got it? I still don't think that means no one ever will or can.

Lastly, and I may be wrong on this one, but it also seems that you are putting forth the proposition that TKD is actually detrimental to the chances of a person ever being successful in MMA. After all, if Gideon and Sincaid are both losing because of TKD and not because they lack the skills and talent of others in the octagon, what other conclusion can I draw? Clearly those two would wipe the floor with the Chuck Liddel if only they had never learned TKD... That's utter baloney. The Iceman is a champion in every sense of the word. I've seen him outboxed - he still won. I've seen him outmaneuvered on the ground several times - he still won. Why? Because he's got always something the others don't, wether it be better conditioning, that bomb of a right hand, or his singleminded determination. That's why he wins.


Look, I used to be that young kid that thought my system rocked, some others were good, and a few sucked.. TKD was on the end of that list. I used to train for tournies by sparring at other schools, and we used to laugh at the TKD guys, but I SAW and EXPERIENCED things that changed my mind. You may not care what those things are and dismiss them because you weren't there, but that doesn't change the facts.

You post back and get the last word if you want, but we're not communicating here (which is the whole point of this forum) so I'm done posting on this subject.

 

[Marginal]

You go ahead and continue to summarily dismiss anything that doesn't fit your world view, but were really not even on the same page here as I have tried to point out.

I think you missed his point. Even if he was there, it doesn't count because it wasn't videotaped as well. One video clip of one encounter = fact which proves the answers to all questions regarding a style's absolute horribleness. One person commenting on a fight they witnessed = not fact, just an anecdote.

2. NO ONE SYSTEM IS ENOUGH - even Greco Roman wrestling or Judo or Muay Thai - even if they do seem to be more readily adaptable to the rules of MMA. This is the point I WASN'T arguing with you.

Use "fact". Koschek was demolished by Sanchez. One dimension met knees to the forehead, and went nowhere. Since it was taped, it proves beyond all doubt that a pure wrestler has no chance.

3. As I said earlier - If you want to fight Olympic style TKD - train for it! If you want to fight MMA - Train for THAT! Maybe I should have mentioned that Olympic TKD isn't the only thing a good, comprehensive TKD school teaches because that's not all TKD contains... I figured we all knew that - my bad.

Doesn't matter unless it's video taped.

Lastly, and I may be wrong on this one, but it also seems that you are putting forth the proposition that TKD is actually detrimental to the chances of a person ever being successful in MMA.

Joe Rogan said it on TV, which is video taped, so it must be an immutable fact.

After all, if Gideon and Sincaid are both losing because of TKD and not because they lack the skills and talent of others in the octagon, what other conclusion can I draw?

Do they actually claim TKD? The commentators seem to toss TKD nugget in there any time someone throws at least one "wheel kick" in a fight.

I'm sure Nathan Jones for example, is considerd a TKD BB.

 

[tomthlee]

tradrockrat,

This wasn't a personal discussion about being a "young kid that thought my system rocked" or about my "world views." it was a discussion about TKD's applicability in MMA competition. You need to learn how to support your arguments with fact. Otherwise, they're not arguments. They are ideas floating in the air with no evidence to back them.

Your concession doesn't surprise me; you simply couldn't handle the requirements to effectively argue a point. That's okay because we all have to learn sometime. I think you also need to realize that not everyone will agree with you or take what you say seriously, especially when you can only provide anecdotal evidence to prove your point. This may be damaging to your ego, but that's life.

I wasn't expecting you to tell me your credentails in martial arts, but I appreciate that you did. You say you have 18 months of taekwondo experience. That makes you a red belt ready to get his black belt in some McDojos. But let's be serious. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you attend a reputable TKD school that doesn't have kiddy black belts running around. You probably have an intermediate level of experience, which is respectable.

My experience with taekwondo is TWELVE YEARS. I've worked with instructors with experience from 3rd dan to 8th dan in both ITF and WTF systems. I've attended seminars and I've even worked with the Korean Tigers. When I left taekwondo I started judo and then moved into Muay Thai, BJJ, and vale tudo (full contact) fighting. To tell me that my world view is so closed-minded and biased is pure ignorance on your part. I've engaged in every aspect of taekwondo - ITF and WTF competition sparring, self defense training, one step sparring, poomsae, weapons and everything else. It was fun while I was a kid, but as I grew up, I realized that TKD simply isn't an ideal martial art to learn self defense or full contact competition fighting.

Don't think that students of MMA aren't well versed in traditional martial arts. Most of us studied them while we were young or in our teens, realized it wasn't for us, and moved on. In my case, I've practiced TKD for a while and I've read books by both Korean and Western authors about the art. I know what I'm talking about when I say that TKD isn't cut out for MMA.

From your experience, you did not list any type of MMA or NHB experience. If anybody is closed-minded or ignorant, it would be you. Unless you train in MMA or fight in full contact, no holds barred competitions, you can't stand on your mountain of ignorance and expect us to believe your claims of what does work, what doesn't work, and what could work. Watching TUF isn't enough to know what goes into MMA training. Come to an MMA gym, check your ego and any black belts you have at the door, and take a boxing or Muay Thai class. Put on a white belt and roll with the BJJ guys. Jump in on the conditioning training that the vale tudo guys do. Your belief that MMA guys are young, ignorant guys with closed world views will soon be changed.

If you would like to come back and post that's fine. But you have essentially conceded your arguments and agreed with mine, so I don't know what else you have to say. Better luck next time.

Tom

 

[Marginal]

tradrockrat,
My experience with taekwondo is TWELVE YEARS. I've worked with instructors with experience from 3rd dan to 8th dan in both ITF and WTF systems. I've attended seminars and I've even worked with the Korean Tigers. When I left taekwondo I started judo and then moved into Muay Thai, BJJ, and vale tudo (full contact) fighting. To tell me that my world view is so closed-minded and biased is pure ignorance on your part. I've engaged in every aspect of taekwondo - ITF and WTF competition sparring, self defense training, one step sparring, poomsae, weapons and everything else. It was fun while I was a kid, but as I grew up, I realized that TKD simply isn't an ideal martial art to learn self defense or full contact competition fighting.

Strange that during all that time, you never once saw any ITF sparring involving people keeping their hands up.

 

[tomthlee]

Strange that during all that time, you never once saw any ITF sparring involving people keeping their hands up.

They keep their hands up at the start, and then begin a sad display of flailing and wild swinging.

http://www.itf-information.com/gallery/camp-36.jpg

http://www.atkd.no/bildegalleri/pub/Folder.2004-09-07.5338311916/TKD-Elite2004%20Thomas%20Sparring.jpg

Hmmm. Why couldn't they just take up ballet?

Tom

 

[Marginal]

Are they sparring in the first picture?

Second one, why are they wearing hogus if they're supposed to be ITF?

Lucky neither are video so you haven't provided "fact" yet. Just anecdotal junk.

 

[Shu2jack]

NotQuiteDead, I was on vacation and couldn't reply right away. Sorry about that and here is my response to your questions.

1) If forms aren't for fighting they wouldn't contain punches and kicks. If you practice them for fitness etc. fine, but you'd be better off doing something that won't develop bad habits for fighting imo. But I'm sure that topic has been done to death.

I didn't say forms are not for fighting. I said they didn't have direct fighting application. Jogging has no direct fighting application, but it helps a fighter gain stamina/endurance. Likewise, forms help give a student a technical foundation for their techniques.

2) Under what rule set are low forearm blocks useful? If you're fighting with certain rules or without rules, it doesn't matter. Blocking like that exposes your head.

I have seen the block useful in response to having one's arms grabbed and the situation didn't call for breaking the other guy's nose. If your that opposed to the block, the next time you are in a standing clinch do a low block to your opponents head/neck/shoulder if he is lower than you. Instead of snapping out the lowerforarm, just ram your elbow into his head/neck. Technically that is a elbow strike, but techniques tend to blend together if you study them enough.

3) See my response to number 1.

See my response to number 1

4) I wasn't talking about blocking an arm-height attack with your arm, I was talking about blocking an attack to your legs or groin with your arm. Reaching that low leaves your face open

So don't block kicks with a low block. I wouldn't. I would still use the "block" in other circumstances. I say "block", but it is taught that blocks can be strikes. You can use the fist to strike the head, or not full execute it and use it like an elbow strike like I mentioned.

Also, a fight is not UFC or Pride. There will be some situations where you don't have to worry so much about certain things.

 

[Shu2jack]

And in regards to this comment earlier: "Why don't you run around aimlessly in the ring like you do when jogging?"

That's called conditioning. If you want to fight someone with a more or less equal skill level, you have to be in shape. Jogging, squats, push-ups, sit-ups, pikes, etc. are exercises designed to put the athlete in shape so that he/she doesn't gas out after the first round. What does a TKD pattern or dead blocking drill do?

That was my point. Jogging does not have a direct fighting application, but it still helps the fighter fight. Forms help those who study it gain a greater technical understanding of techniques and to help with technical proficency.

a) It doesn't put you in shape. Unless you're grossly obese and you sweat gallons from the slightest movement (in which case a nice walk around the park would be a better choice of exercise).
b) It doesn't teach you how to fight.

a) Define "shape". After spending 30 minutes over my patterns I am dripping sweat and I'm 6' and 180lbs. I am not "grossly obese" and I would bet a large sum of money that the patterns are better execerise than a walk in the park. Plus I get a chance to work on my pivoting for techniques, hip rotation, using the entire body in coordnation with strikes, etc. Instead of working on power with a heavy bag, speed with targets/speed bag, and working "alive" with a partner, I have a chance to focus just on the foundations of technique without worrying about anything else. For a warm up or light work out, patterns are a worthwhile endevor in my opinion.

b) No kidding?

If I had to put my money on a street fighter who jogged 6 miles a day vs. a tkd fighter who drills patterns, my money is on the street fighter.

Same here.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I didn't say forms are not for fighting. I said they didn't have direct fighting application. Jogging has no direct fighting application, but it helps a fighter gain stamina/endurance. Likewise, forms help give a student a technical foundation for their techniques.

If it's giving them a 'technical foundation' then they are practicing fighting techniques. Those techniques can be used to fight with so they have fighting applications.

I have seen the block useful in response to having one's arms grabbed and the situation didn't call for breaking the other guy's nose. If your that opposed to the block, the next time you are in a standing clinch do a low block to your opponents head/neck/shoulder if he is lower than you. Instead of snapping out the lowerforarm, just ram your elbow into his head/neck. Technically that is a elbow strike, but techniques tend to blend together if you study them enough.

If I wanted to practice elbows I would practice elbows, not low blocks down by my thigh or groin.

So don't block kicks with a low block. I wouldn't. I would still use the "block" in other circumstances. I say "block", but it is taught that blocks can be strikes. You can use the fist to strike the head, or not full execute it and use it like an elbow strike like I mentioned.

So why not just practice what you would use, rather than practice something you wouldn't and justify it by saying if you change it and use it for something else then it is useful?

Also, a fight is not UFC or Pride. There will be some situations where you don't have to worry so much about certain things.

This thread is about tkd in mma, though. And dropping your hand down by your waist to block something still leaves your face wide open no matter what situation you are in.

 

[Shu2jack]

You are right, this thread is about TKD in MMA.

[Warning: Sarcasim]

Obviously, the fact that I practice forms will render me incapable of performing well in any fighting arena. No amount of extra conditioning, alive drills, bag work, hard work, and "hard" partner sparring (with less limiting rules) will over come the fact that forms will be my sole source of how I perform techniques. And we all know that techniques are meant to be used how they were done in the forms. Why else would they be done like that? A low block HAS to block something low! If it is not, you are changing things!


I have read your other posts in the TKD forum NotYetDead and I will end our argument here.

 

[tomthlee]

Are they sparring in the first picture?

Second one, why are they wearing hogus if they're supposed to be ITF?

Lucky neither are video so you haven't provided "fact" yet. Just anecdotal junk.

1. The two fighters are wearing punch guards, kick guards, and both seem to be in the middle of a technique at the same time (creating a jam). It looks to me like they're sparring.

2. It's unfortunate that a 1st dan in TKD recognizes a thin sheet of fabric (used to differentiate the opponents) as a hogu. Those are ITF fighters.

3. Okay, you want video of ITF guys flailing around and swinging their arms around. Unlike some TKD supporters I've encountered on this forum, I don't run away when people ask me for evidence. By the way, photos are legitimate evidence. But, since you asked me for video (which is pointless because you can find this by going to your dojang), I've done the research and here it is:

http://www.northants-taekwondo.com/video/taekwondo-intro-dl.avi

You can bypass all the demo stuff and check out the sparring clips. There's plenty of happy-go-lucky arm flailing and multiple Chun-Li "hiyayayayaya!" lightning kicks. You're right about these displays of TKD being junk. But it's not anecdotal; it's fact.

Tom

 

[Marginal]

The problem here stems from your horrible definition of an anecdotal argument.

If that was going on in my instructor's Dojang, I'd be more inclined to accept it as fact. But it must because you've seen it a few times, and that means it applies to all TKD practitioners.

That's an anectodal argument you're presenting. Not a factual one.

2. Weak insults aside, I've never seen markers differentiating opponents beyond a strip of cloth intersted into the back of the belt.

Finally, bear in mind that I'm questioning the claim that the whole of TKD looks like olympic rules sparring. This is not about TKD's performance in MMA. I already stated that TKD's in a no-win situation in that respect. You will not shame me into allowing you lazy generializations however.