Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[Zero]

Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.

Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.

Look, I have fought plenty of muay thai fighters and kick boxers and have found their hand skills no better than mine. If anything, I would say I am not overly impressed with the punching of a lot of muay thai fighters and personally have issues with their upper body/gloves fight and guard stance. When competing I am generally in a boxer's position, albeit with perhaps a slightly wider and more side on stance/positioning of the legs which enables more effective and quicker throwing of kicks but my hands are pretty much as per a boxer's, this is different to muay thai guys I have fought and watch.

I would also say that your comment that karateka have sub-par hand skills to other "sport" fighters is not correct, or at least very hard to justify.
In my experience, and having done TKD all through high school myself, karateka generally have better punches and a better defensive guard to punches than TKD guys - that's clearly a generalisation. Perhaps kick boxers are on the whole "better" than karateka but not sure if that is the case really (same goes for muay thai, keeping the elbows to the side of the equation). And aside from TKD, MT and kickboxing what else do you have sport wise other than boxing and karate (...maybe savate). Are you saying bjj and judo have better hand striking skills than karate in general??

There is a lot of suck-bad karate out there for sure but I honestly think you got this suck-bad training yourself in your years of Shotokan, either that or you did not put the time in or somehow didn't "gell" with the training and/or style (which happens), which you seem to have done when you took up boxing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post.

What's up with you fricken' Jiu-jitsu guys? Has syntax, composition and damn good writing become part of the curriculum at purple belt or something? (I hate all of you)

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I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well. However, I disagree with the conclusions. WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
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1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads. As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions. Great for the athlete, the boxer. For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
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Traditional karate doesn't rely on external body mechanics or hone reactions. Traditional karate develops the internally coordinated strength which is then applied in a highly precise way. The conscious mind is always directing the physical techniques, with the mind & body working in unison. The Japanese karate term of KIME explains some of the working goal of this process. Though traditional karate is expressed physically, it is always driven by the thought process. From punching "air" in kihon techniques to kata practice, the union of mind & body, with the mind over the body, is the dynamic.
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Since what I've described is largely an internal process, you can't see the dynamic of what's going on inside. How many really understand this? Based on what I've laid out, sport fighting methods & comparisons are relevant, but not the competent way, to evaluate traditional karate principles....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

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I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well. However, I disagree with the conclusions. WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
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1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads. As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions. Great for the athlete, the boxer. For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
|
Traditional karate doesn't rely on external body mechanics or hone reactions. Traditional karate develops the internally coordinated strength which is then applied in a highly precise way. The conscious mind is always directing the physical techniques, with the mind & body working in unison. The Japanese karate term of KIME explains some of the working goal of this process. Though traditional karate is expressed physically, it is always driven by the thought process. From punching "air" in kihon techniques to kata practice, the union of mind & body, with the mind over the body, is the dynamic.
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Since what I've described is largely an internal process, you can't see the dynamic of what's going on inside. How many really understand this? Based on what I've laid out, sport fighting methods & comparisons are relevant, but not the competent way, to evaluate traditional karate principles....

Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that.

Personally, I've never seen any evidence that traditional karateka apply their strength with any more precision than boxers or that they have greater unity of mind and body than boxers. Hmmm ... how would you test that hypothesis?

 

[Tez3]

Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that.

Perhaps in his wisdom he would like to tell us exactly why it's a counter productive waste of time to punch a pad instead of punching into the air?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that.

Personally, I've never seen any evidence that traditional karateka apply their strength with any more precision than boxers or that they have greater unity of mind and body than boxers. Hmmm ... how would you test that hypothesis?

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I'm well aware of your position--I see it often in my dojo & others. I've posted a view that is contrary to yours. You've say you've never seen any evidence contrary to your view. Yet did you respond to any of the specifics of the "hypothesis" I described?
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I just laid out on a forum / board some traditional karate principles for members to consider. Nobody is going to "prove" anything on a blog....that's the limitation of a forum. Members are free to look at the ideas or reject them outright.....
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Being pleased with your own accomplishments & approach doesn't make it "better" or "correct." If you are sure in your knowledge, so be it. My accomplishments stand on their own also. The instructors at my current dojo were skeptical, they found out everybody is on a learning curve regardless of rank.... I've been working with a Master at another branch who is interested in applying traditional karate for MMA. He's been pretty much on board with my input. Focus mitts & pads, >> not included. The majority who want to use these training aids--that's up to them. I put on a demonstration breaking boards within what is typically a non-fighting an "air punching" exercise. I challenged the class to do the same, Not a single bag / pad puncher could match what I did....including the instructor. I got that way by doing the traditional karate curriculum-no sport equipment assist and yes, a lot of "air punching." It's the foundation that gives rise to karate power, not the test....
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Thanks for the reply... my view is opposed to yours in a number of ways.... In your answer, you basically restated your position (which I already acknowledged), then you said I don't do what all the "karateka" like TEZ do (which I also already made clear). In kumite, at the outset I've had the overconfident make cocky gestures at me; Me, no eye rolls [either].

 

[ShotoNoob]

Perhaps in his wisdom he would like to tell us exactly why it's a counter productive waste of time to punch a pad instead of punching into the air?

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I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master." Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
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EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

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I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master." Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
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EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....

The titles you see next to our names have nothing to do with our martial arts ranks or skills. It's just a forum thing reflecting our post count. You can be a 10th degree black belt in real life and the forum software will list you as "white belt" when you start posting. On the other hand, you might never have trained a day in your life, but if you spend all your time posting on MartialTalk the forum software will eventually list you as "Grand Master."

 

[Touch Of Death]

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I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master." Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
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EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....

That is her MartialTalk rank, there, ShotoNoobie. LOL

 

[Tony Dismukes]

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I'm well aware of your position--I see it often in my dojo & others. I've posted a view that is contrary to yours. You've say you've never seen any evidence contrary to your view. Yet did you respond to any of the specifics of the "hypothesis" I described?
|
I just laid out on a forum / board some traditional karate principles for members to consider. Nobody is going to "prove" anything on a blog....that's the limitation of a forum. Members are free to look at the ideas or reject them outright.....
|
Being pleased with your own accomplishments & approach doesn't make it "better" or "correct." If you are sure in your knowledge, so be it. My accomplishments stand on their own also. The instructors at my current dojo were skeptical, they found out everybody is on a learning curve regardless of rank.... I've been working with a Master at another branch who is interested in applying traditional karate for MMA. He's been pretty much on board with my input. Focus mitts & pads, >> not included. The majority who want to use these training aids--that's up to them. I put on a demonstration breaking boards within what is typically a non-fighting an "air punching" exercise. I challenged the class to do the same, Not a single bag / pad puncher could match what I did....including the instructor. I got that way by doing the traditional karate curriculum-no sport equipment assist and yes, a lot of "air punching." It's the foundation that gives rise to karate power, not the test....
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Thanks for the reply... my view is opposed to yours in a number of ways.... In your answer, you basically restated your position (which I already acknowledged), then you said I don't do what all the "karateka" like TEZ do (which I also already made clear). In kumite, at the outset I've had the overconfident make cocky gestures at me; Me, no eye rolls [either].

Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.

To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?

(BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )

 

[Touch Of Death]

Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.

To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?

(BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )

Believe it or not I almost agree, on some weird level. The fact that we are punching at all, from that distance, is a sport concept. Why not close the distance and gouge the chest with the elbow, leaving the punch as a secondary concept, or, icing on that cake?

 

[Tez3]

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I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master." Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
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EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....

Well, if you have finished being rude and mistaken perhaps you'd like to answer my question.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master." Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
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EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....

The title is merely a reflection of the fact that Tony has been here longer than you and posted more than you. I'd also caution you against making posts that come across as insulting and rude.

 

[drop bear]

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I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well. However, I disagree with the conclusions. WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
|
1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads. As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions. Great for the athlete, the boxer. For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
|
Traditional karate doesn't rely on external body mechanics or hone reactions. Traditional karate develops the internally coordinated strength which is then applied in a highly precise way. The conscious mind is always directing the physical techniques, with the mind & body working in unison. The Japanese karate term of KIME explains some of the working goal of this process. Though traditional karate is expressed physically, it is always driven by the thought process. From punching "air" in kihon techniques to kata practice, the union of mind & body, with the mind over the body, is the dynamic.
|
Since what I've described is largely an internal process, you can't see the dynamic of what's going on inside. How many really understand this? Based on what I've laid out, sport fighting methods & comparisons are relevant, but not the competent way, to evaluate traditional karate principles....

You would still see the evidence of it. Because it is either going to work or it isn't.

 

[drop bear]

Believe it or not I almost agree, on some weird level. The fact that we are punching at all, from that distance, is a sport concept. Why not close the distance and gouge the chest with the elbow, leaving the punch as a secondary concept, or, icing on that cake?

you can try that. The issue is that elbows are really hard to apply when you are getting punched.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That is her MartialTalk rank, there, ShotoNoobie. LOL

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Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either]. I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?" I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob." Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....

 

[Tez3]

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Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either]. I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?" I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob." Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....

I hate to interrupt but I'm wondering if you are going to get around to answering my question or if you are going to ignore it? For all we know you may be correct but unless you are willing to explain your statement you will have to expect scepticism, one cannot make a statement like that and assume one is too knowledgeable to be questioned.

 

[Touch Of Death]

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Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either]. I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?" I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob." Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....

Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpson's.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bears are bloody scary.

 

[Zero]

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Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either]. I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?" I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob." Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....

I agree, for some time now I have hoped Touch Of Death would change his name, it's really scary and intimidating, it freaks me out so much I no longer check MT on my mobile in the bathroom with the lights out, it's too scary!!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.

To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?

(BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )

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PP#1: YES, I believe the principle of "mind-body unity" is central to the discussion. I did talk about this generally. Let me add I do agree that a good boxer will typically destroy the karateka unless that karateka has achieved the kind of mind-body unity provided by proper traditional karate training. Good muscular coordination is not what I'm talking about.

PP#2: Well, aspects of the responses have been critical. I also recognize a boxing feint when I see one. Takes mental discipline. Your question is the right question so thanks for that. Let me start by saying... those that characterize kihon karate practice as "punching air" are looking at only the outward expression of the physical movement of the student / practitioner. And that include anyone who claims to be insulted. I'd like to see a member take my proposition and make a substantive contribution.

BTW: The Master I am working with on Karate for MMA has been practicing for decades. He's more knowledgeable on the technical aspects & traditional karate curriculum. I bring certain conceptual principles & link to actual application. His class isn't very popular for a lot of reasons, the mental discipline required a big one. We intend to focus on the black-belt level foundation kihon, kata & traditional kumite exercises rather that the conventional free sparring regimen found in MMA. Hope that helps in the explanation department.

BTW2: Used the link to your blog and in reading the second to latest post, I think see some of your concepts of martial arts training. As I said, there is a fundamental difference there with mine and I will say your reasoning is quite prevalent among competition karate. I have to do some reading there... thanks for the link.