Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[drop bear]

My instructor says that jiu-jitsu guys are the nerds who were in the chess club in high school - and the MMA guys are the jocks who used to beat us up and take our lunch money.

Kind of a gross overgeneralization, but I'm not going to say it's all wrong.

Nah all martial artists are chess nerds. Cool kids play ball sports

 

[Touch Of Death]

nice but no shoulder tuck.

He isn't in a ring dodging punches. LOL

 

[drop bear]

He isn't in a ring dodging punches. LOL

and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.

 

[Touch Of Death]

and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.

Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?

 

[drop bear]

Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?

So you are saying that doing a basic striking mistake like creating unnecessary space in your guard is the result of having to spend time kicking or wrestling?

And not boxing having a more comprehensive system because that is all they do?

 

[drop bear]

Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?

oh and he trains mma as well. So that isn't all he trains for.

 

[Touch Of Death]

oh and he trains mma as well. So that isn't all he trains for.

I just chose a random video of some guy to a vertical back knuckle that was better than what you had shown. If he does train in MMA, he should learn to protect his head. Remember, if I am down in stance, as I stated, and I am striking upward toward the jaw, my shoulder just creeps right up to my jaw. If I grow straight off the shoulder, then yeah, I see the issue.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I will have you using and believing in this move before the end of this conversation!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.

Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.

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I think this belief is a total misnomer, one popularized by those who prefer sport fighting such as boxing....
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Many looking at kihon (basic) karate hand techniques without proper training do not understand the mechanisms behind traditional karate hand technique. Kihon karate hand techniques are strong, fast & precise, gathering on more of of body's internal strength compared to say boxing. Furthermore, kihon karate techniques are designed for continual action, again drawing upon the whole body's strength with each move. Moreover, it is the mental link between body & the conscious mind that gives rise to the dynamic striking of the karate expert. Traditional karate exercises are specifically designed to develop just that. Sport fighting relies on reactive "muscle memory."
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Of course developing these higher level of abilities goes way beyond the physical abilities exhibited by the boxer. Nonetheless, the karateka had better be high in proficiency or the skilled boxer will handily destroy the casual karate practitioner. It takes years & many, many hundreds of hours of dedicated traditional karate practice to begin to form the solid karate foundation. Now you have the reason for the failure of karate hands skills so often complained about....

 

[ShotoNoob]

and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.

I
Many, many competition karateka report having trouble against the boxers jab such as illustrated. Many try to adopt the "jab."
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Traditional kihon karate is fundamentally different on many fronts. To take on the boxer's jab, one must be well trained in karate basics. For instance, karate traditionalists do not tuck the chin & roll to the shoulder to absorb the strike. Traditional karate actively blocks the strike, then typically counters.
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Successful karate blocking requires a high level of mental discipline-- to get the right block in the right way at the right time, all supported by the entire body. No easy task and generally not relied upon by many karate competitors. Why,? because they can't do traditional karate.
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It's just as necessary to be able to immediately adjust and flow into the next move by your opponent. Here, to be prepared for the 1-2, the follow-on right (2). After blocking the jab, you must counter strike first, hitting before the opponent's right can be effective. Or alternatively, you must be prepared to block the follow-on right as well. The decision-tree goes on from there...
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Traditional karate is a mental discipline, the body powered by the active mind at all times in fast, continuous engagement until the opponent is disabled. Traditional karate is not a list of techniques nor a set of gambits....
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Props on the boxing-jab vid. Was very clear on instruction. Now karate traditionalists have no excuse about learning how to defeat it.....

 

[Buka]

ShotoNoob - welcome to the forum, bro.

 

[drop bear]

I will have you using and believing in this move before the end of this conversation!

does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.

 

[Touch Of Death]

does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.

Sure, why not?

 

[Hanzou]

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I think this belief is a total misnomer, one popularized by those who prefer sport fighting such as boxing....
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Many looking at kihon (basic) karate hand techniques without proper training do not understand the mechanisms behind traditional karate hand technique. Kihon karate hand techniques are strong, fast & precise, gathering on more of of body's internal strength compared to say boxing. Furthermore, kihon karate techniques are designed for continual action, again drawing upon the whole body's strength with each move. Moreover, it is the mental link between body & the conscious mind that gives rise to the dynamic striking of the karate expert. Traditional karate exercises are specifically designed to develop just that. Sport fighting relies on reactive "muscle memory."
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Of course developing these higher level of abilities goes way beyond the physical abilities exhibited by the boxer. Nonetheless, the karateka had better be high in proficiency or the skilled boxer will handily destroy the casual karate practitioner. It takes years & many, many hundreds of hours of dedicated traditional karate practice to begin to form the solid karate foundation. Now you have the reason for the failure of karate hands skills so often complained about....

Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.

Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.

 

[Hanzou]

Not sure what that proves, those poor sods can't even kick...

He's going for his 5th degree black belt.

 

[Paul_D]

I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.

Why would kata resemble Sparring? Sparring is for competition fighting, kata is for dealing with civilian self defence. Two very different things, hence the look different and use different techniques for different purposes.

You wouldn't get into a ring or a cage and start doing Naihanchi anymore than a mugger is going to stand five feet away, side on, in a fighting stance, springing in and out every now and again with an exploratory jabs trying to our point you on the judges score card.


Choki Motobu, another famous pioneer, is also said to have expressed this view. Shoshin Nagamine, a student of Motobu, in his book Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters tells us that his teacher said:


“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield."

 

[Tez3]

Why would kata resemble Sparring? Sparring is for competition fighting, kata is for dealing with civilian self defence. Two very different things, hence the look different and use different techniques for different purposes.

You wouldn't get into a ring or a cage and start doing Naihanchi anymore than a mugger is going to stand five feet away, side on, in a fighting stance, springing in and out every now and again with an exploratory jabs trying to our point you on the judges score card.


Choki Motobu, another famous pioneer, is also said to have expressed this view. Shoshin Nagamine, a student of Motobu, in his book Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters tells us that his teacher said:


“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield."

We don't have a 'thank you' option anymore so I've copied this so I can say thank you for a very good post that hits the nail exactly on the head.

 

[Touch Of Death]

does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.

You could back knuckle him, leave your hand on target, grab his jacket, and jump on his back... if you wanted.

 

[Zero]

He's going for his 5th degree black belt.

yeah, it's horrific, I've witnessed this first hand as most of us have also

 

[ShotoNoob]

Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.

Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.

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YES, I couldn't agree more with your general observations, as I stated in my post comment. The reason, IMHO, is precisely your reference to the word, "SPORT." Those karateka having supar-techniques owe to training karate as if it is a physical sport. Sure, they are repeating the kihon moves, sparring techniques, but only regurgitating what they see in physical form presented in class. The art & science behind what they are doing is not understood, hence not engaged.
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Also very common, you see karate practitioners learn karate form, again physically, and then shift to boxing form when sparring or in competition because this is more natural & practical to do rather than become accomplished at traditional karate principles. The result is a lot of punching & kicking often descending into 2 guys slugging it out.... It's quite a task to learn to develop & call upon the internal strength of the entire body and use it in a highly coordinated way, deliberately controlled by the mental discipline of the conscious mind at every turn.... AS OPPOSED to Muscle memory & external body mechanics....
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Boxing & Muay Thai are highly effective on the physical level. Traditional karate as I've described above is after something different. Just learning how to perform karate moves physically, YES I agree is somewhat of a lost cause against skilled athletes. Doing traditional karate is much involved than demonstrating knowledge of the physical form. Too many karate practitioners approach their training as sport, and this observation is lamented by any number of Traditionalist Sensei.
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For the record, I follow the UFC MMA karate fighters. Note that both Machida and Wonderboy Thompson have had their difficulty (losses) against Muay Thai fighters. However, though traditionalist based, I consider both Machida & Wonderboy sport karate fighers--very good ones @ that.... So IOW, I see where you are coming from. I'll post later on My generalized "key" to defeating boxers, etc.