Perhaps the Tang Soo Do discussion should be moved to that forum?
Why is karate different from kung fu?
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
Y
yentao
Guest
Ok
Where Huang Kee's Tang Soo Do came from? Why is the art become so known so quickly? I mean if the art is introduced around the 1900's to korea then there should be not enough practitioners in Tang Soo Do 1950's?
Where Huang Kee's Tang Soo Do came from? Why is the art become so known so quickly? I mean if the art is introduced around the 1900's to korea then there should be not enough practitioners in Tang Soo Do 1950's?
white belt
Brown Belt
I agree. This discussion is fruitless concerning debts to other national lineage. Cross polinating happens. Some would have people believe that African Americans invented Western Boxing just because they presently participate in disproportionate numbers compared to other ethnic groups. Mike Tyson owes a debt to Jack Dempsey. Doesn't make Tyson's ability any less valid. Hwang Kee learned Karate. Same parallel.
The physical text of kata / hyung is a separate matter. If patterns represent the heart of a system, then borrowed patterns imply much as far as influence. The Kung Fu patterns structures that I have seen just don't look similar overall to Karate's. Yet the Karate practicioners openly show a respectful indebtedness. The Korean patterns on the other hand show a CLOSE similarity to many of various Karate patterns. The Koreans are reluctant to admit, for the most part, any debt to the Okinawan / Japanese. Maybe if the Chinese had conquered the Japanese, instead of vice versa, the Japanese would be taking the same revisionist view toward supposed homogenous indiginous martial art as the Koreans. Please keep in mind that I am a TKD instructor. The patterns question has thus far best been illuminated to me by Arnisador having me pick up a book titled "FIVE ANCESTORS FIST KUNG FU" by A.L. Co. Beyond that, I also am waiting for a more revealing answer to Arnisador's original question.
white belt
Y
yentao
Guest
Really you bought a book about Ngo Cho Kun? So what do you think of the book?
I still am also! The Five Ancestors Fist material is thought-provoking, but I think the original question has a good answer--I am not quite sure what it is though!
A related question is, Why is kobudo not the study of Chinese weapons?
white belt
Brown Belt
I am pleased with the book. Arnisador made a good suggestion. The history was interesting and there are photos showing individual positions that most definitely resemble finished positions in the Okinawan/Japanese/Korean patterns. The "sets" performed are pretty much "stationary" in position though, which adds even more mystery to Arnisador's query.
white belt
I know that Alexander L. Co has some videos out too:
http://www.bakbakan.com/video-ac.htm
I've never seen them unfortunately.
http://www.bakbakan.com/video-ac.htm
I've never seen them unfortunately.
Y
yentao
Guest
Don't worry I'll tell Alex Co about your comments. Hey if you want to know something about it feel free to ask I'll be happy to assist you.
Y
yentao
Guest
Did you bought one?
brothershaw
Purple Belt
From my experience with karate, tkd and kung fu:
Yes many of the basic stances are the same, There is probably more variation in styles of kung fu than styles of karate.
The main reason I think kung fu looks different from karate in general is the training is different!! THe koreans and japanese have passed on karate/ tkd/ tsd with a different kind of movement and rythm from many styles of kung fu. Perhaps the heavy military connection and influence in karate, along with the structure of japanese society, samurai culture has a great deal to do with it. Go into a karate school and you may notice an almost militaristic degree of formality and training. Internalization may also not be trained or emphasied as early in a students training as in some chinese arts. Aikido has more of a chinese/ kung fu flow to it than some of the karate I have seen, ( but thats another story.)
Karate just took what kung fu it has in it in a different direction based on cultural influences. An athlete that plays a team sport in a strcutured or school league will play it differently than an athlete who has been playing in pickup games. They both could have the same amount of skill but they will have a different rythm to thier game.
Yes many of the basic stances are the same, There is probably more variation in styles of kung fu than styles of karate.
The main reason I think kung fu looks different from karate in general is the training is different!! THe koreans and japanese have passed on karate/ tkd/ tsd with a different kind of movement and rythm from many styles of kung fu. Perhaps the heavy military connection and influence in karate, along with the structure of japanese society, samurai culture has a great deal to do with it. Go into a karate school and you may notice an almost militaristic degree of formality and training. Internalization may also not be trained or emphasied as early in a students training as in some chinese arts. Aikido has more of a chinese/ kung fu flow to it than some of the karate I have seen, ( but thats another story.)
Karate just took what kung fu it has in it in a different direction based on cultural influences. An athlete that plays a team sport in a strcutured or school league will play it differently than an athlete who has been playing in pickup games. They both could have the same amount of skill but they will have a different rythm to thier game.
K
Kempo Guy
Guest
As many of you have mentioned in this thread, many if not most Karate schools have rigid discipline to an almost militaristic degree. I believe this was due to several factors, including but not limited to the following:
- the inclusion of "tode" as part of the physical education curriculum in schools
- the development of modern Karate at the height of Japanese imperialistic ideals oppressing anything foreign (and yes, the Ryukyuan culture was foreign to the Japanese)
- the change from "jutsu" to a "do", i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting.
As suggested the Okinawan Islands and its various arts were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat / Chuan Fa) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than that of the Japanese... Having said that, the Japanese attitude toward training (as well as the introduction of dogi etc) were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people...
I hope you are kidding. The Japanese martial arts have a heritage beyond the introduction of Tode to the Ryukyu Islands.
There is evidence that jujutsu arts were developed out of Chinese influences from Chinese nationals travelling to Japan, but what you have suggested would be in the minority and in fairly recent history if anything...
I don't think many samurai knew karate back in the 1800's. If any they would have been from the Satsuma region of Japan... I think you need to do some more research. :shrug:
KG
- the inclusion of "tode" as part of the physical education curriculum in schools
- the development of modern Karate at the height of Japanese imperialistic ideals oppressing anything foreign (and yes, the Ryukyuan culture was foreign to the Japanese)
- the change from "jutsu" to a "do", i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting.
As suggested the Okinawan Islands and its various arts were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat / Chuan Fa) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than that of the Japanese... Having said that, the Japanese attitude toward training (as well as the introduction of dogi etc) were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people...
I hope you are kidding. The Japanese martial arts have a heritage beyond the introduction of Tode to the Ryukyu Islands.
There is evidence that jujutsu arts were developed out of Chinese influences from Chinese nationals travelling to Japan, but what you have suggested would be in the minority and in fairly recent history if anything...
I don't think many samurai knew karate back in the 1800's. If any they would have been from the Satsuma region of Japan... I think you need to do some more research. :shrug:
KG
K
Kempo Guy
Guest
Just briefly to add to or rather explain the following comment I made in my earlier post: "the change from 'jutsu' to a 'do', i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting"
This is somewhat of a paradigm shift in thought process as to how an art is studied (and further develop). The Japanese have a phrase "Ningen Keisei", character building which I feel is central to the study of budo. I mentioned "Yamato damashii" in my earlier post, which would refer to the building of the Japanese spirit, however Ningen Keisei is different from this.
Let me explain, the main principle of Ningen Keisei is perseverance, i.e. never giving up (even when discouraged). Your training ultimately is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices is the primary purpose of training. So in essence the martial viability is of little consequence, hence the drift in the performance of kata. Of course this would be more true of Japanese Karate than Okinawan Karate but perhaps some of this thought process may have carried over to Okinawa?
KG
This is somewhat of a paradigm shift in thought process as to how an art is studied (and further develop). The Japanese have a phrase "Ningen Keisei", character building which I feel is central to the study of budo. I mentioned "Yamato damashii" in my earlier post, which would refer to the building of the Japanese spirit, however Ningen Keisei is different from this.
Let me explain, the main principle of Ningen Keisei is perseverance, i.e. never giving up (even when discouraged). Your training ultimately is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices is the primary purpose of training. So in essence the martial viability is of little consequence, hence the drift in the performance of kata. Of course this would be more true of Japanese Karate than Okinawan Karate but perhaps some of this thought process may have carried over to Okinawa?
KG
Its not wrong to call chinese arts kung fu as long as you realize that a chef can be considered kung fu, or a great teacher (on any subject) can be considered kung fu. Kung fu is just a direction not a thing.
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yentao
Guest
Kung fu (Khong Fu) means hard work in Chinese. We Hokkian call it kok sut.
Kempo Guy, yeah i'm working on it. I'll try to send you some source.
K
Kempo Guy
Guest
From my limited understanding of Okinawan Karate history most of the systems that took root in the Ryukyu Islands were systems developed in the Fukien province of China. Tai Ji was developed in interior China (around Henan province) which could explain the lack of influence of Tai Ji on Okinawan arts.
KG
