Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[drop bear]

I would certainly like to see those stats!! "Most people you know have broken their hands with body shots"? Surely not most, I take it you mean you know a few or a couple that have broken hands when doing this? What style of fighter are they?
I am not proud about it but I have broken a guy's rib in competition and not damaged my hand. I also had my own rib pushed out of my chest when the ligament was stretched when I took a shocker of a blow to the side of the torso. It was bad for me but I knew the guy I was fighting, he was a friend and trainer, and his hand was not hurt.

The ribs are strong but they are far more vulnerable and do not have the same structure as the head bones, they simply do not have the cohesiveness or support of the head bones.

They hit elbows. And generally you are really booming that body shot off.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was actually talking about target availability, but I will remember not to compare the impact. Thank you.

Even so...
Put your arms in a good guard and a punch probably won't reach center mass. A bullet probably will.
Center mass is still a better choice than the periphery, though. Most of the time.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Zero]

They hit elbows. And generally you are really booming that body shot off.

Ah, I see, they connected with their fist to the elbow not the body (as in torso) itself. Was this kyokoshin with bare knuckles or were they gloved, and meaning boxing gloves?

 

[drop bear]

Ah, I see, they connected with their fist to the elbow not the body (as in torso) itself. Was this kyokoshin with bare knuckles or were they gloved, and meaning boxing gloves?

boxing gloves. I am not sure if the karate guys have the same issues.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

to respond to some one who asked about face, and head punching, its there but the emphisis in most styles is on the body because if you brake ribs or damage the liver they can NOT continue to breath well or fight. you

I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who are trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.

 

[Tez3]

I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who are trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.

I can recommend superglue if when hit in the head your crown comes unstuck on your front tooth, dentist may not like it but until I stop doing martial arts or really do manage to evade every punch to my head it will do.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Your question is the right question so thanks for that

Cool, looking forward to reading your answer.

those that characterize kihon karate practice as "punching air" are looking at only the outward expression of the physical movement of the student / practitioner.

If you re-read my original post, you'll note I never denigrated kata. I did note that the effectiveness or lack thereof was going to be connected to the practitioners understanding and mental focus. (Based on what you've written, I would assume that you agree with this.)

Likewise, Tez is certainly not denigrating kata. She's a long term karateka who is a fierce defender of the value in kata.

And that include anyone who claims to be insulted.

I hope my earlier post clarified why it is insulting to refer to an experienced, dedicated karateka as a "karateka" (in quotes)?

unless that karateka has achieved the kind of mind-body unity provided by proper traditional karate training. Good muscular coordination is not what I'm talking about.

Perhaps we could have a more productive discussion if we made sure we were speaking the same language. Can you clarify exactly what you mean by mind-body unity in observable real world terms? If an individual has achieved mind-body unity, what exactly are they able to accomplish in a fight that is different from what someone without mind-body unity can do?

BTW: The Master I am working with on Karate for MMA has been practicing for decades. He's more knowledgeable on the technical aspects & traditional karate curriculum. I bring certain conceptual principles & link to actual application. His class isn't very popular for a lot of reasons, the mental discipline required a big one. We intend to focus on the black-belt level foundation kihon, kata & traditional kumite exercises rather that the conventional free sparring regimen found in MMA. Hope that helps in the explanation department.

Cool. I'd love to hear details on that program. However, it doesn't answer the question that Tez and I have been asking: "How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?"

BTW2: Used the link to your blog and in reading the second to latest post, I think see some of your concepts of martial arts training. As I said, there is a fundamental difference there with mine and I will say your reasoning is quite prevalent among competition karate. I have to do some reading there...

I love to get feedback (critical or otherwise) on any of my blog posts. Feel free to PM me or leave a comment on the blog with any commentary you have on any of it (assuming it's not relevant to the current discussion thread).

You're talking about my Road Maps entry, right? I'm not sure I see a much relevance to the current thread, but if you see a connection, please point it out.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps we could decide what we mean by a traditional karate syllabus?
What is Traditional Karate Iain Abernethy

 

[chinto]

You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?

There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.

Yes I have.. ever had a cracked rib?

 

[chinto]

I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who are trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.

I am not avicating not hitting the head, or blocking punches to the head. I am saying the head can take quite a lot of damage...the skull is heavy bone to protect the brain...

 

[drop bear]

Yes I have.. ever had a cracked rib?

No i have been pretty lucky. Mine just don't seem to go.

But regardless it is not that you cant put someone down with body shots. It is that it happens less often than head shots.

 

[chinto]

But of course you train to protect yourself from blows to any where you can prevent taking damage.. in a SD situation the fight will last seconds not minutes!

 

[drop bear]

But of course you train to protect yourself from blows to any where you can prevent taking damage.. in a SD situation the fight will last seconds not minutes!

I am sure you will last longer than that. Don't underrate yourself.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nobody only throws elbows. You would put yourself at too much of a disadvantage.

You really should take this show on the road. You are killing me.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Okinawan Karate does not have better kicks then hands. it has good kicks and good hands. to respond to some one who asked about face, and head punching, its there but the emphisis in most styles is on the body because if you brake ribs or damage the liver they can NOT continue to breath well or fight. you Can fight with most of the bones in your face broken.

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I never got the thinking that traditional karate somehow didn't punch to the head. Kihon strikes, kihon kata & kihon kumite exercises all emphasize punches @ the head. Standard traditional karate curriculum, IMO.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I said that you used scare quotes when referring to Tez as a "karateka." The term scare quotes has nothing to do with being scary. It's when you put quotation marks around something, not because you are actually quoting anybody, but because you are indicating that you don't consider the words inside the quotes to be accurate. Used in this context, when you refer to all the "karateka" like Tez, it conveys roughly the same meaning as all the so-called karateka like Tez.

If this wasn't what you intended to communicate, then it might be a good idea to clarify.

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I hardly know the real credentials just reading some posts. I meant to convey my impression on the comment. Simple.
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Also, see my reply today to Tez (whomever) on my view of her approach to karate....

P.S. Still reading your blog link. You've put a lot of work into that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

It is not really a comparison of damage. Because we would be comparing a shot that knocks you out to a shot that debilitates you through broken ribs. What we have to look at is the likelihood that you will achieve one or the other.

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Hard contact to the head is obviously dangerous to the brain. That's why traditional karate prohibits contact to the head in training, as a general rule. Blows to various parts of the body can be effective, the head is the clear target for certain effect. That's what everyone believes where I train.....

 

[geezer]

...But regardless it is not that you cant put someone down with body shots. It is that it happens less often than head shots.

Great argument guys. Now for a moment of complete randomness:

If head shots and body shots are both effective ways to stop an attacker cold, why is it that when angry, people always threaten to "kick your butt"? ...Hardly a vulnerable target...

OK, got that out. Now please carry on.

 

[ShotoNoob]

1. I assume you have decided to ignore me, whether it's because I dared to ask a question, dared to ask for proof or perhaps because you found out I'm female I don't know no do I care.
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2. I'm sure you believe your way is the best and only way and that you are keeping some ancient flame alive with your belief of mental karate however while I will gladly admit I know far less than I would like I do believe that my style of doing karate is practical and effective, I don't ask for it to be more than that. I don't want a spiritual belief system from my martial arts, I don't want training in mental gymnastics, I want my karate to be something I can use to defend myself.
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3. We also train MMA fighters and certainly outside the US there is a lot of karate in MMA as there is in kick boxing. You aren't unique in putting karate into MMA at all.
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4. The above quote is a rather odd thing to contemplate while someone is attacking you, I wouldn't recommend standing there thinking deeply while they throw a punch at you. Unless of course you are about to tell us you can do no touch KOs?
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I do realise you will now assume I'm some sort of heretic but hey I'm at least a heretic who can defend themselves and others if attacked, I know from experience I can and that will do for me.
Oh and 're-actively' ?

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1. Ignore a "Sr. Grandmaster," NO Waaay! Actually 2 of 3 of my best karate instructors have been woman. I'm surprised after several decades of karate training, you haven't aged enough to become a women. Strange....
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2. YES, I think in a broad way you've hit the nail on the head here. I'll expand @ the end of the reply.
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3. Wow, I think our "date" is a disaster. We're @ dinner and I just discovered there's only room for one @ the table. Please excuse me, I'll find another table.... Should I still drive you home later (er, allow you to drive us to your home in my car?)?
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4. Couldn't agree more. Having you thinking, particularly deeply, is a mistake. And I feel like I just experienced the "no-touch" KO....OUCH!!! Pity the poor sod who gets fresh with you..... Had know idea British girls were so rough....
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Summary: I think when discussing the practice of karate intelligently, we should separate the training into three progressive levels of intensity. (1) the casual practitioner who goes to the dojo 2 days a week for an hour class to get some disciplined exercise and very rudimentary self defense. (2) The serious sport karate competitor who also want some good self defense skills. <<That's you Tez, IMO.>> (3) The karate traditionalist who seeks to develop the human potential (spelled out in many a karate manual) through the traditional training methods. I'm here.
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For illustration, the decent boxer will usually slaughter the Group 1 karateka. Against Group 2 karateka, the good boxer will be more evenly matched yet I believe the boxer will have the edge on average. Talking about Group 3, the karateka who has trained sufficiently will be able to handle the boxer using the mental discipline inherent in the traditional karate base. Should that mental discipline slip or be below par, the karateka will be in the fight of his life against a skilled or expert boxer.... THAT's my experience....
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I see I'm a boring dinner date.... so I'll just go now.... Take care.

 

[Punchy]

....... why is it that when angry, people always threaten to "kick your butt"? ...Hardly a vulnerable target...

Sure it is....it's already cracked..........