Karate does not come from White Crane

[Bill Mattocks]

In his very first post the OP says he's 'stirring things up', I thought that wasn't allowed around here?

I took it to mean 'stimulating conversation' rather than 'inciting a riot'.



In any case, I understand and support legitimate historic exploration of the common roots (such as may exist) of our arts. I just don't find it to be something that dominates my life or thinking.

 

[Buka]

There are also forms of American Karate, such as practiced by @Buka.

Best to go to official Martial sources. Hence, I opened my official Martial source book -

American Karate - Noun (on a good day)
A·mer·i·can ka·ra·te....... . /əˈmerəkən/ kəˈrädē/

Bunch of guys who did karate came back from serving overseas. Opened some schools, many next to ice cream pallors. Some other guy, called it American Karate. He must have had an extra flag or something.
Technically, it doesn't exist. Except for maybe Master Ken. Anyone who claims to practice said Art should be taken as shady at best.

Nowhere did I find any reference to White Crane. However, looking at myself in the mirror, I suspect White Eyebrow Kung Fu might be involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

 

[hoshin1600]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

i am not sure what your point is of posting these youtube clips. it serves no purpose. first clip is a style of san zhan that has no "DNA markers" that are related to karate. and the second clip is a video of a relative modern form created Chojun Miyagi.

 

[Buka]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

 

[JP3]

To be perfectly frank about it, I think that the martial art (arts if you want to be precise) that I practice have only the same level of relationship to what was taught/created in Asia as shoe technology then has to shoe technology now. In other words, I think things continue to grow, develop, some things slough off (perhaps unfortunately in some cases) some things are cast away for various reasons (both good and bad), and so forth.

The aikido transmitted to me via Ray and Nick simply does not "look" like the video we have of Tomiki practicing. It is odd to say, but watching those old clips, we see form and posture breaks that we are training out of white belts now because, to us, they are obviously and proveably incorrect. So, are we missing something, or was he? Either could be accurate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

I don't know. I don't train white crane.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.

 

[DanT]

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

The shaking is caused by him tensing up his arms so much they shake. It's called Shaking Power (dynamic tension). It serves to strengthen the muscles and ligaments and tendons.

 

[DanT]

This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.

It's called "dynamic tension" and serves to strengthen the muscles, tendons, and ligaments.

 

[DanT]

I don't know. I don't train white crane.

Check my response.

 

[iain_meyers]

Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.

So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.

Now, how certain we are that Goju-ryu (at least) has Crying Crane at its core? Easiest thing is to look at the katas. If Higaonna has been a student of Xie Zhongxiang, he should have learned some Crying Crane routines. So which forms does the style teach nowadays? Apparently at least following: Babulian, Ershiba su, Zhongkuang, Roujian and Qijing. They might also have Sanchin, but I cannot verify it 100 %. Higaonna himself, however, most likely taught only four katas: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Suparimpei. None of the forms match.

We could of course go on saying that these Crane forms have been added later on and were not among those taught by Xie Zhongxiang. To scrutinize this, we have to look at his other students and see what they have taught. Luckily we know one, Huang Xinxiang. He was later in his martial arts career a student of Taiji master Zheng Manqing (is usually written, like, Cheng Man Ch'ing or something?) and later created his own Huang-style taiji. This style of taiji is curious since it actually contains few crane forms. Which ones? Babulian and Ershiba su, renamed Sanfeng Kuaiquan (Three Peaks Quick Fist; after the peaks of Wudang mountains, I guess). Thus we can say that Xie Zhongxiang taught at least Babulian and Ershiba su, but Kanryo Higaonna never learned those core forms of the style. Why?

To me the simplest explanation is, already with this non-historical forms transmission only -analysis, that Xie Zhongxiang is NOT Ru Ru Ko and Crying Crane has nothing to do with karate.

What do you think?

Interesting post. Where do you think karate came from?

 

[iain_meyers]

5 ancestor fist?

 

[DaveB]

Hello all,

The main white crane connection that I am aware of is secret passing of the bubishi around by various Okinawan experts.

Goju ryu has an obvious resemblance to hakka kungfu and all those millions of southern styles resemble one another supposedly because they share a connection to white crane.

I knew of one research group that didn't even classify goju as karate but rather as a style of kungfu.

Is the specific style a progenitor to karate? Maybe, maybe not, but saying so is in my view a reasonable shorthand for the southern Chinese connection that is definitely real.