Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[drop bear]

Not sure if this is what you meant, but you really can't box unless you're trained to box- and then actually box....a lot.

you can put on gloves and punch. Nothing stopping a karate guy doing that being good at it or improving because of it.

The reason the karate guy may not do well is because the boxer has better hands. Simple as that. And that is the same for any martial art not just karate.

there is no reason a bjjer could not jump in with a boxer and bjj with 16 ounce gloves on. And if the bjjer gets face punched. It is still because the boxer has better hands.

It iis not such a specialized activity. That other styles cant do it. Especially if you are willing to relax the rules a bit.

 

[Touch Of Death]

you can put on gloves and punch. Nothing stopping a karate guy doing that being good at it or improving because of it.

The reason the karate guy may not do well is because the boxer has better hands. Simple as that. And that is the same for any martial art not just karate.

there is no reason a bjjer could not jump in with a boxer and bjj with 16 ounce gloves on. And if the bjjer gets face punched. It is still because the boxer has better hands.

It iis not such a specialized activity. That other styles cant do it. Especially if you are willing to relax the rules a bit.

While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.

 

[Zero]

Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.

Interesting. Were you "eaten alive" in a freestyle environment where you were able to kick, sweep, lock-up and takedown/submit or were you simply constrained to a fist vs fist striking sparring session against the boxer?
And what was the level of the boxer compared to yourself, you say you are bb Shotokan but what competition level was the boxer?
If you could answer the above it would be illuminating.

 

[Zero]

We have several karateka in our club who are chosen for their regimental boxing teams on the sole basis of their karate, they do very well against boxers. My instructor has had several bare knuckle boxing bouts and as a Shotokan karateka has also done very well. I would suggest karate people who haven't done well against boxers have a. not been taught well b. not got the stomach for a fight or c. were either too inexperienced or met a really good boxer who would also beat other boxers, really good fighters who excel in their style will always do well against anyone else. You cannot compare a really good fighter with other fighters not even when they are in the same style. Mohammed Ali for example could beat most if not all boxers at his weight so being a karateka and beaten by him wouldn't mean karate was rubbish, it means he's a extraordinary fighter.

All this style versus style stuff proves absolutely nothing. It's like a kid's game of Godzilla v King Kong, you can speculate endlessly but it gets you nowhere. Of course if your agenda is to constantly rubbish another style then I guess you will carry on playing just to point out the flaws you think that style has. It maybe however the flaws are in the person doing the rubbishing, perhaps he was just never very good despite all the teaching, in that style he now rubbishes. They do say a bad workman blames his tools.

Too true. There are karateka that are crap boxers, there are karateka that are crap kickers and would get owned by a muay thai guy, kyokoshinka or TKD'er. Then there are awesome karateka that are highly trained and have had the benefit of great trainers and have gone on with those karate skills to win MMA titles against boxers, wrestlers, grapplers, etc and win numerous K1 grand prix against muay thai fighters, kick boxers, etc.

So much is down to the individual - and as Buka has also said, what the environment is. If you are in a ring and it is simply fist vs fist, then, yes, I would 9 out of 10 times go for the highly skilled/experienced boxer over a highly skilled/experienced fighter of any other discipline. Further, boxing strikes are very good for many self defence scenarios also. But when you get away from a highly specialised sport environment to just have hand skills and of a certain type (closed fist) is very limiting. If you find yourself clinched/tied up or on the ground, for example, you want to have other options and responses available.

 

[Zero]

Oh, Hanzou, apologies, I see you responded above, in part to those questions already.

But to be honest, while you may not know and he may not have levelled with you, he may well have been a very "handy" boxer.

And nothing personal meant, but either he has in another class or your own training failed you - quite possibly due to the training given to you by your teacher/school which was lacking and not rounded or perhaps due to the degree of fight training you had put in yourself and in fighting against other styles.

...And then sometimes, you just get owned on the day by a guy of another style that really wasn't any "higher ranked" in his style than yourself, he just had the forward motion, initiative, whatever. That happens to everyone and it can be frustrating - and painful.

As you say, you ended up playing his game.

I don't think your experience necessarily means even you can draw the conclusion that karate hand skills, or karate itself is lacking.

 

[Zero]

While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.

Agreed, you can get a karate or bjj guy and put him in gloves and have him work the bags and pads all day and spar just in gloves with strikes and with a boxing coach. Then he will be a great boxer too, in fact he will be a boxer...and no longer a karateka or bjj'er...

Drop bear, the only reasons a boxer's hands are "better" is because he has solely devoted himself to that.
Just like if we were free styling I may be able to hold my own against you due to my years of judo and experience grappling but if we were to solely go ground floor bjj rules you would wipe me out as that's your world.

 

[Zero]

Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?

Wrong but close!
Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block. They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...

...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??

 

[Zero]

Advanced karate techniques like this;

And starts here at 2:42

Not sure what that proves, those poor sods can't even kick...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wrong but close!
Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block. They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...

...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??

Those were homeless boxers. They were just moving.

 

[Tez3]

Wrong but close!
Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block. They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...

...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??

Not wrong, you are talking about the US. I'm not in the US and our experiences don't mirror those in the US. Not everything has started in the US you know! There has been full contact karate here and in Europe for a very long time, before the sixties even!. Kick boxing has developed from full contact karate then when Mt arrived on our shores that was added to the mix.

 

[Zero]

Not wrong, you are talking about the US. I'm not in the US and our experiences don't mirror those in the US. Not everything has started in the US you know! There has been full contact karate here and in Europe for a very long time, before the sixties even!. Kick boxing has developed from full contact karate then when Mt arrived on our shores that was added to the mix.

OK, I guess I really did need those emoticons again!!
I was a bit cheeky and put the "wrong" in there just to get you fired up!

 

[Tez3]

OK, I guess I really did need those emoticons again!!
I was a bit cheeky and put the "wrong" in there just to get you fired up!

Good grief I'm not fired up lol, if I am you'll know because I start posting in Cornish.

My a dhispres agas fowt sotelneth hag agas heb yeth treylyes, ty vab hernenn dhivamm !

 

[Zero]

I despise your lack of subtlety and your unmutated language, you son of a motherless pilchard

Nice

Even if I was the offspring of a pilchard, it would definitely not be a motherless one!!

Now go change your avatar back to the one we all liked, that Cornish anime one, would you! : )

 

[Tez3]

I despise your lack of subtlety and your unmutated language, you son of a motherless pilchard

Nice

Even if I was the offspring of a pilchard, it would definitely not be a motherless one!!

Now go change your avatar back to the one we all liked, that Cornish anime one, would you! : )

Well done, it's such joyful language to swear in LOL, you watch, someone will report me now...again Still, I will be back dreckly.

 

[Buka]

My a dhispres agas fowt sotelneth hag agas heb yeth treylyes, ty vab hernenn dhivamm !

Oh, sure, easy for you to say.

 

[drop bear]

While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.

While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.

lol. Not really the case. Boxing has a lot of moves when you start adding in tactics and footwork. I know i am still learning new ones.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed, you can get a karate or bjj guy and put him in gloves and have him work the bags and pads all day and spar just in gloves with strikes and with a boxing coach. Then he will be a great boxer too, in fact he will be a boxer...and no longer a karateka or bjj'er...

Drop bear, the only reasons a boxer's hands are "better" is because he has solely devoted himself to that.
Just like if we were free styling I may be able to hold my own against you due to my years of judo and experience grappling but if we were to solely go ground floor bjj rules you would wipe me out as that's your world.

well yeah. Kind of my point as well here. A boxer has better hands because that is all he does. So they have developed a system that has more comprehensive striking.

I get out boxed by boxers because they are employing a better system than me. Same as if i get out judoed out karated or out bjjed.

And that is why I train with those guys in their own systems. Because they are better.
I am getting the impression.

None of this nonsense about them being a specialized field. They were better and it is simple as that.

By the way i get the impression people do not think boxing is complicated. And it certainly is.

 

[Zero]

well yeah. Kind of my point as well here. A boxer has better hands because that is all he does. So they have developed a system that has more comprehensive striking.

I get out boxed by boxers because they are employing a better system than me. Same as if i get out judoed out karated or out bjjed.

And that is why I train with those guys in their own systems. Because they are better.
I am getting the impression.

None of this nonsense about them being a specialized field. They were better and it is simple as that.

By the way i get the impression people do not think boxing is complicated. And it certainly is.

Hmmm? Who said boxing is not complicated, like anything when you start out and have not been immersed in it for some time, it is complicated. The body mechanics, weight distribution, balance, body movement and foot work takes a lot to get down pat...at least for me.

I fully rate your training with other styles and agree with this outlook, I too train with boxers and have paid for one on one training with a top ex-national boxer to better my own hand skills and ring work for just that reason. That's why I also train with the senior jutitsu guy at the goju club and back in the day when I was seriously competing I went to clubs of other styles (kickboxing, muay thai, TKD) and sparred with them.

On your point about boxers simply having a better (hand) striking system than other MAs, such as karate, and not simply because they specialise and focus more on the hand skills than, say a karateka...I follow you. I am not entirely sure about that...if a guy focused solely on the hand (open and closed) skills and techniques of karate and a different guy of similar attributes focused solely on boxing strikes (but also the boxer's movement, ie the whole boxing package) and then they fought bare knuckles, I wonder who would win and more importantly, who would win more often over several fights.

I think you may be right....as my gut feel is that the boxing style would dominate as it is beautifully crafted for an environment where you do not need to worry about sweeps, knees to the head when you are coming in low, etc.

But it is not a simple question, at least not to me but on the whole I would probably concede I agree with you.

 

[drop bear]

Hmmm? Who said boxing is not complicated, like anything when you start out and have not been immersed in it for some time, it is complicated. The body mechanics, weight distribution, balance, body movement and foot work takes a lot to get down pat...at least for me.

I fully rate your training with other styles and agree with this outlook, I too train with boxers and have paid for one on one training with a top ex-national boxer to better my own hand skills and ring work for just that reason. That's why I also train with the senior jutitsu guy at the goju club and back in the day when I was seriously competing I went to clubs of other styles (kickboxing, muay thai, TKD) and sparred with them.

On your point about boxers simply having a better (hand) striking system than other MAs, such as karate, and not simply because they specialise and focus more on the hand skills than, say a karateka...I follow you. I am not entirely sure about that...if a guy focused solely on the hand (open and closed) skills and techniques of karate and a different guy of similar attributes focused solely on boxing strikes (but also the boxer's movement, ie the whole boxing package) and then they fought bare knuckles, I wonder who would win and more importantly, who would win more often over several fights.

I think you may be right....as my gut feel is that the boxing style would dominate as it is beautifully crafted for an environment where you do not need to worry about sweeps, knees to the head when you are coming in low, etc.

But it is not a simple question, at least not to me but on the whole I would probably concede I agree with you.

It is not just one boxer. It is a bunch of boxers all trying to get better than the other guy. Just like anyone who specializes.

 

[Buka]

A boxer trains in the distance of boxing, and only in the distance of boxing. A martial artist trains in more varied distances, which may giver a better overall understanding of distance in self defense situations - but isn't any kind of advantage whatsoever when you're "just boxing" with someone.

A boxers combinations are tighter, time wise, because they are limited in number and are usually applied in training with more immediate and tactile feedback - translation....OUCH, than most Martial strikers.

I think one of the advantages of boxing is the ability and familiarity with hard contact, especially to the head. But in the long run that can be a serious determent to leading a healthy life. The problem is - the strikes to the head add up.....but you are unaware that they are adding up.

I love boxing, the fighting style not the business. But I love Martial Arts a whole lot more. It ain't even close if you ask me.