Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[Zero]

Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.

Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.

I have to agree with K-man here, you clearly have not seen much karate hand-techs - or maybe being charitable, unfortunately, you were only exposed to very junior practitioners or a very sub-par club?

We were working punches on the makiwara at my goju club from quite junior level onwards. We had an outside space behind the club so were lucky to have a great makiwara set up in the ground. Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights. Again, we also worked on the light and heavy bags inside the club from white belt/day-one gloved up or gloveless and very much like a boxer.

When we spar or compete the upper body/hand style is very much like a boxer, with gloves you're not able to execute blade hand techs and sparing without gloves you don't want to be mixing it with someone who is using heavy ridge / blade hand techs as these can result in a broken nose and hurt far more on the clavicle or neck than a closed fist/punch (quite simply because the energy is being transferred into a narrower point of contact). I am not saying these are "secret/deadly, not to be used techs" (which I can't stand people referring to or using as an excuse) or that they are any more effective than a punch, it's just the result is patently different and from personal experience I prefer to ride a hard punch to the shoulder any day over a ridge hand strike.

I fail to follow you where you say karate hand techs have heavy draw backs on actual (I take that to mean "real life" and possibly also tournament) application. As noted above, the punches are quite similar to a boxer's, aside from contact points and in some styles, wrist alignment.

The blade hand strikes are very powerful and damaging and have their place for those experienced in employing them or that choose to use these instead of a punch. heel of palm strikes to certain targets are also very effective and can rock your boat and put you on your **** just as much (or almost as much) as an upper cut.

Tell us what the specific techs are that you feel are sub-par for actual application and then maybe we can have a real discussion on this.

 

[Zero]

It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.

I know Tez3, I know...I had hoped when saying things that patently don't fit with historical records or the genealogy of styles that it would be clearly nothing more than my failed attempts at humour - but I guess if someone was making jokes about Muay Thai I would have no idea...so you are right.

My Humour-Fu without the smileys suxxx!!!
Happy Valentines for tomorrow, I hope you get those roses and box of chocs I sent your way!

 

[Buka]

I have to agree with K-man here, you clearly have not seen much karate hand-techs - or maybe being charitable, unfortunately, you were only exposed to very junior practitioners or a very sub-par club?

We were working punches on the makiwara at my goju club from quite junior level onwards. We had an outside space behind the club so were lucky to have a great makiwara set up in the ground. Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights. Again, we also worked on the light and heavy bags inside the club from white belt/day-one gloved up or gloveless and very much like a boxer.

When we spar or compete the upper body/hand style is very much like a boxer, with gloves you're not able to execute blade hand techs and sparing without gloves you don't want to be mixing it with someone who is using heavy ridge / blade hand techs as these can result in a broken nose and hurt far more on the clavicle or neck than a closed fist/punch (quite simply because the energy is being transferred into a narrower point of contact). I am not saying these are "secret/deadly, not to be used techs" (which I can't stand people referring to or using as an excuse) or that they are any more effective than a punch, it's just the result is patently different and from personal experience I prefer to ride a hard punch to the shoulder any day over a ridge hand strike.

I fail to follow you where you say karate hand techs have heavy draw backs on actual (I take that to mean "real life" and possibly also tournament) application. As noted above, the punches are quite similar to a boxer's, aside from contact points and in some styles, wrist alignment.

The blade hand strikes are very powerful and damaging and have their place for those experienced in employing them or that choose to use these instead of a punch. heel of palm strikes to certain targets are also very effective and can rock your boat and put you on your **** just as much (or almost as much) as an upper cut.

Tell us what the specific techs are that you feel are sub-par for actual application and then maybe we can have a real discussion on this.

" Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights."

No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.

My grins can be quite evil.

 

[Zero]

" Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights."

No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.

In principle I agree, it's just from personal experience in executing punch strikes like a hook (with either horizontal or vertical fist) to the head, in honesty I am more connecting with the majority of my knuckles and I am not connecting with a wrist alignment as often seen in goju ryu punches.

For body and torso rips/hooks I can definitely get the major two knuckles worked into the ribs etc but for head strikes this alignment does not work for me so well...throw some yourself next time training, or maybe you can answer off the bat now, and let me know your take on this and how your mechanics work? Would be keen to know.

 

[Tez3]

I know Tez3, I know...I had hoped when saying things that patently don't fit with historical records or the genealogy of styles that it would be clearly nothing more than my failed attempts at humour - but I guess if someone was making jokes about Muay Thai I would have no idea...so you are right.

My Humour-Fu without the smileys suxxx!!!
Happy Valentines for tomorrow, I hope you get those roses and box of chocs I sent your way!

Ahh, you are a sweetie! XX

 

[Zero]

It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.

Hey, now hold it y'all, I just seen you didn't put no smileys on your Gurkha joke over in that other post??

 

[Zero]

Smileys

 

[Tez3]

Hey, now hold it y'all, I just seen you didn't put no smileys on your Gurkha joke over in that other post??

Ah but that's not a joke, it's true!

 

[Zero]

Ah but that's not a joke, it's true!

True!

 

[Buka]

In principle I agree, it's just from personal experience in executing punch strikes like a hook (with either horizontal or vertical fist) to the head, in honesty I am more connecting with the majority of my knuckles and I am not connecting with a wrist alignment as often seen in goju ryu punches.

For body and torso rips/hooks I can definitely get the major two knuckles worked into the ribs etc but for head strikes this alignment does not work for me so well...throw some yourself next time training, or maybe you can answer off the bat now, and let me know your take on this and how your mechanics work? Would be keen to know.

For me, it's the opposite! For body shots I tend to hit with the majority of my knuckles, for hooks to the head, either vertical or horizontal, I'm pretty good at focusing the punch with the front two knuckles. When I first started boxing (72) and hooked to the head, we always had our hands wrapped properly and, of course, wore gloves. But when I was forced to throw a hook to the head outside, with no gloves and no wraps.....man, I really hurt my hand. Didn't break it, but damn near. It was then I used what I was being taught in Martial Arts - front two knuckles - in the boxing gym with all gloved hooks. Slowed me down some, but in a few years it became natural.

I have really skinny wrists, like a little girl, so I have to pay attention to wrist alignment. That became natural, too, after about a jillion of them.

My mechanics on the hook to the head work well, at least for me. Throwing the weight onto my back foot while hooking (like a swinging gate, the back side being the hinges) aligns my knuckles and wrist so that I haven't hurt anything with that particular punch in longer than I can remember. I like a vertical fist when head hooking with someone of my height or shorter, I tend to go with a horizontal fist on head hooking with a taller opponent. (which really aligns my knuckles and wrist the way I want them) I find it so much easier to land a hook to a taller person.

I also like one thing about the winter (and one thing only!) I get cold so easy I'm always wearing gloves. I know it's purely psychological, but I love hooking with gloves on. We all have our quirks - I try taking advantage of mine.

 

[K-man]

Crickey K-Man, do I have to put smileys on everything for you?

Yep! I've been so pissed off by a few people over the past six months, I've misplaced my sense of humour.

That, and of course your omission of the emoticon.

Not to mention the lack of choice with emoticons.

But, in answer to your question ... yes please!

 

[Tez3]

Yep! I've been so pissed off by a few people over the past six months, I've misplaced my sense of humour.

That, and of course your omission of the emoticon.

Not to mention the lack of choice with emoticons.

But, in answer to your question ... yes please!

I still wish we had the old emoticons back, they were more appropriate for a martial arts site.

 

[K-man]

No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.

This is why Hanzou is so far off track and why it always amuses me when people call boxers 'specialist punchers'. Boxers punch with wraps and gloves and pretty much use the one punching surface. They are only 'specialist punchers' in that punching is what they do.

In karate we have two punching platforms. The first is incorporating the first two knuckles as you describe and the second is using the last three knuckles. This one is more interesting as it enables a punch where you might have a broken forefinger. Then there are multiple punches featuring different knuckles. On top of this there are different alignments for different targets.

What you see in karate kihon is way, way different to the technique of punching we would use in a real fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Karateka punch like boxers because that is how we train. The punching you are describing is once again the kihon, something you seem to have difficulty comprehending and obviously never progressed beyond in your karate training. You know nothing of advanced karate techniques.

Advanced karate techniques like this;

The real fun starts at 3:55.

And starts here at 2:42

 

[Tez3]

I love the liver shots

 

[Hanzou]

I love the liver shots

Yeah, Kyokushin looks great.....

Because they fight like kick boxers.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, Kyokushin looks great.....

Because they fight like kick boxers.

Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?

 

[Tez3]

Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Columbia Kickboxing Contact

 

[Hanzou]

Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?

Kickboxing came from a combination of karate and muay thai.

I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.