Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[Hanzou]

Tell us what the specific techs are that you feel are sub-par for actual application and then maybe we can have a real discussion on this.

Pretty much the entire methodology. If you go from Karate to western boxing, it becomes painfully obvious that karate is simply an archaic method in a variety of aspects. I'm sure people don't want to hear that, and may be quite upset, but its simply the truth. Boxing develops a better all around tool set for hands than karate does. Better defenses, better timing, better combinations, etc.

This shouldn't be surprising when we consider that Boxing is a constantly evolving sport and most karate dojos adhere to traditions established almost (or even over) a century ago.

That said, Karate is better at teaching kicks than boxing. So there you go.

 

[KydeX]

That's only logical. Boxing is a specialist style. It focuses on strikes only, and mostly to the head. Of course it will beat Karate in a punching contest. This is true for all arts. The more you add in to your curriculum, the less skill you will have in each discipline.

It's the old "jack of all trades, master of none" saying.

 

[Tez3]

That's only logical. Boxing is a specialist style. It focuses on strikes only, and mostly to the head. Of course it will beat Karate in a punching contest. This is true for all arts. The more you add in to your curriculum, the less skill you will have in each discipline.

It's the old "jack of all trades, master of none" saying.

It depends on the fighter not the style, to say boxing will beat karate means absolutely nothing. It's just a generalisation, you can't make it true by saying it lol.

 

[jks9199]

Kickboxing came from a combination of karate and muay thai.

I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.

No.

Simply no.

Kickboxing events had numerous origins. In the US, they evolved as a way to do full contact martial arts competitions. Sure, Muay Thai was out there. So was shootboxing. And lots of other things. The American Bando Association hosts one of the longest running continuous amateur kickboxing events. The rules have developed and adapted over the years, in part due to insurance and sanctioning/licensing/permitting requirements. Some of the early kickboxers combined boxing experience with martial arts. Others were, for lack of a better word, "true" martial artists.

 

[Buka]

Pretty much the entire methodology. If you go from Karate to western boxing, it becomes painfully obvious that karate is simply an archaic method in a variety of aspects. I'm sure people don't want to hear that, and may be quite upset, but its simply the truth. Boxing develops a better all around tool set for hands than karate does. Better defenses, better timing, better combinations, etc.

This shouldn't be surprising when we consider that Boxing is a constantly evolving sport and most karate dojos adhere to traditions established almost (or even over) a century ago.

That said, Karate is better at teaching kicks than boxing. So there you go.

So the debate is now between boxing and Karate as to which has the better hand techniques? And this would be in the context of what, exactly? In a boxing match? In a Karate match? In a kick boxing ring? Or are we talking about a fight between a boxer and a Karate man? Or perhaps, you know, a street fight. Would that be the criteria to judge?

So if someone studied Karate in one particular school, they would know the answer to those questions, yes? Or maybe somebody who boxed for a while? Or would it be the eye test? Or maybe somebody who fought against a boxer, or fought against a Karate man. Or somebody who fought against both? Or somebody who trained with both?

Boxing is a specialized sport/fighting system. Actually, the most specialized of all sport/fighting systems. With four basic strikes, the jab, the cross, the hook and the uppercut, and slight variations of shovel hooks, overhands etc.

But I guess the debate is about the punching as it stands alone. Let's just take all the other aspects of Karate and throw them out. Which would be equal to limiting boxing to say, the jab, the uppercut, the bob and the weave.

But I suppose if you're experienced in both, you would have the answer. But, you ain't. Or are you?

 

[Hanzou]

So the debate is now between boxing and Karate as to which has the better hand techniques? And this would be in the context of what, exactly? In a boxing match? In a Karate match? In a kick boxing ring? Or are we talking about a fight between a boxer and a Karate man? Or perhaps, you know, a street fight. Would that be the criteria to judge?

So if someone studied Karate in one particular school, they would know the answer to those questions, yes? Or maybe somebody who boxed for a while? Or would it be the eye test? Or maybe somebody who fought against a boxer, or fought against a Karate man. Or somebody who fought against both? Or somebody who trained with both?

Boxing is a specialized sport/fighting system. Actually, the most specialized of all sport/fighting systems. With four basic strikes, the jab, the cross, the hook and the uppercut, and slight variations of shovel hooks, overhands etc.

But I guess the debate is about the punching as it stands alone. Let's just take all the other aspects of Karate and throw them out. Which would be equal to limiting boxing to say, the jab, the uppercut, the bob and the weave.

But I suppose if you're experienced in both, you would have the answer. But, you ain't. Or are you?

Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.

 

[Tez3]

We have several karateka in our club who are chosen for their regimental boxing teams on the sole basis of their karate, they do very well against boxers. My instructor has had several bare knuckle boxing bouts and as a Shotokan karateka has also done very well. I would suggest karate people who haven't done well against boxers have a. not been taught well b. not got the stomach for a fight or c. were either too inexperienced or met a really good boxer who would also beat other boxers, really good fighters who excel in their style will always do well against anyone else. You cannot compare a really good fighter with other fighters not even when they are in the same style. Mohammed Ali for example could beat most if not all boxers at his weight so being a karateka and beaten by him wouldn't mean karate was rubbish, it means he's a extraordinary fighter.

All this style versus style stuff proves absolutely nothing. It's like a kid's game of Godzilla v King Kong, you can speculate endlessly but it gets you nowhere. Of course if your agenda is to constantly rubbish another style then I guess you will carry on playing just to point out the flaws you think that style has. It maybe however the flaws are in the person doing the rubbishing, perhaps he was just never very good despite all the teaching, in that style he now rubbishes. They do say a bad workman blames his tools.

 

[Danny T]

Have seen a lot of terrible boxers & muay thai fighters as well as terrible karate fighters. Seen some awesome as well. Seen a lot of terrible wrestlers and other ground fighters as well of some awesome as well. Seen a lot of terrible stick fighters and some awesome ones as well. Seen a lot of terrible carpenters and some awesome ones also. Seen a lot of terrible auto mechanics and some awesome ones as well. Could go on with this...!!!
It is the person, how much they practice, to what level they can apply what they have learned and how much do they want it. There are a lot of what I consider horrible fighters where their fundamentals are concerned however, their ability to over come and overwhelm is excellent. There is far more to being a good fighter than What they train in.

 

[Hanzou]

/snip

LoL! No one is "rubbishing" karate. I'm simply pointing out its flaws and shortcomings. No art is perfect.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.

That is because you like to fight at boxing range. I don't let people be where boxers like to be, and neither do boxers, now that I think about it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

LoL! No one is "rubbishing" karate. I'm simply pointing out its flaws and shortcomings. No art is perfect.

six year olds can get black belts; so, you are only pointing out your own shortcomings.

 

[jks9199]

Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.

So... Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training? What rules? Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?

Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring. And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on. But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling... I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...

 

[Touch Of Death]

So... Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training? What rules? Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?

Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring. And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on. But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling... I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...

You see they spoon feed Karate to you, because there is so much you can do; however, they hand boxing to you on a platter, and you can't help but become conditioned to easily defeat people that are still sucking on a spoon.

 

[drop bear]

So... Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training? What rules? Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?

Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring. And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on. But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling... I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...

karate punching is just not as comprehensive tactically. And focusing on the punches is the wrong place to look.

 

[Buka]

Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.

I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have such a curiosity and fascination with these things.

 

[drop bear]

The thing is of course that you can do karate and also do boxing and it is going to improve your karate hand skills.

I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have such a curiosity and fascination with these things.

just interested karate guys should be able to box shouldn't they? I mean even if you relax the rules and let them throw ninja chops and distracting backfists. I don't care so long as you are hitting with that glove. They should be able to do rounds and both should not be too out of there depth.

 

[Buka]

The thing is of course that you can do karate and also do boxing and it is going to improve your karate hand skills.

just interested karate guys should be able to box shouldn't they? I mean even if you relax the rules and let them throw ninja chops and distracting backfists. I don't care so long as you are hitting with that glove. They should be able to do rounds and both should not be too out of there depth.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but you really can't box unless you're trained to box- and then actually box....a lot.

 

[Hanzou]

I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have such a curiosity and fascination with these things.

We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.

I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.

So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.

 

[Danny T]

We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.

I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.

So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.

Reminds me of a couple of competitions we were in a few years back. Our youth program is shotokan. We have our intermediate level and advance level spar striking with boxing gloves and open striking (no groin, no back of the head, no kidney shots, no kicks to the knees). They also spar throws, takedowns, and groundwork.

Anyway took several to a few Karate sparring competitions; point and continuous sparring. Placed all in Black Belt divisions based on age and we walked away with 1 & 2nd places across the board. Lost several points due to punches to the face. (which we do train, our youth did what they trained). Point is karate can be an excellent training method when trained as such. Some do some don't. Because there are some who don't that doesn't make karate a poor method. It just means their training is poor.

 

[Buka]

We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.

I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.

So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.

I know how that sucked, but on the bright side it made you a more experienced/better fighter in the long run. Always gotta' look at the long run.

Might have turned out the same way if you were straight Jits back then and you were only using the hand techniques you train in Jits, because, again, it's playing his game.

And I know what some Karate guys might be thinking, "I'd sweep him". That's not always as easy as it sounds because the timing is different. Not yours, his. But if you box for a while, and learn to disguise that sweep with the hip/shoulder motion and footwork of boxing, it works really well. Especially because boxers react differently to in-coming punches than us karate men tend to. But there is nothing a boxer hates more, or messes him up more, than sweeping his feet. Other than taking him down and mounting. Which is always fun.

Again, I love boxing. But I like sparring boxers even more. But....they tend to have no sense of humor....which is even more fun.

Hanzou, how would you like to spar that guy again now, knowing what you now know and having the skill set you have now? Wouldn't that be fun?