What can a boxer gain from WC?

[DanT]

The reason why I feel like the Wing Chun punch is sufficient for fighting is because in the way I was taught, it can be delivered from various angles. For example you can punch from your fist starting anywhere in front of your chest and shoulders, and it can land anywhere on the opponents body. This allows for a lot of variation in striking angles and targets. If you learn to connect your elbow with your hip, you can generate a lot of power this way too. It's always the same "Chong Kuen" (thrusting punch) it's just that the starting position can change horizontally from the centre line to the shoulder line or anywhere in between, and vertically from as low as the belly button to as high as the shoulder.

 

[wingchun100]

no you move like a particulary stiff robot to face the new direction, and then stand there like a Taylors dummy again

You are just determined that the way YOU think Wing Chun practitioners moved is the way we really move so, this comment aside, I'm not even going to bother addressing you anymore.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The other MA system turns much more.

 

[jobo]

From my experience, it's not that you stay still like a statue when the opponent is close, it's that when you excecute a technique you need to launch it from the ground up, hence the need for a root.

the prime consideration in a fight is not to get hit hard, or better, at all, that's best,achieved by being very mobile, if i spend 2 mins moving back and side ways with out throwing a blow and avoid being hit that a win, you don't need to be rooted to throw a good punch or kick, last night i was doing jumping kicks, not at all rooted, if you do need a root, you only need it for half a second whilst you throw, .

to be fair i find karate a bit odd as well, I'm not standing there blocking punches, I'm either moving away, or I'm going forward and beating them to the punch, standing there like a tree seems the worst possible decision

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And as someone who says he has experience in wc you should also know why in SNT the body isn't rotated yet in CK and BJ there is rotation which is connected with the punch. Or, possibly you don't know.

IMO, body rotation is so important. It should start from day one. After you know how to use your body, to learn how to use your arm is easy.

I strongly disagree with the approach that you train your arm first (muscle group isolation) and then train your body (body unification) later. It develops bad habit and hard to get ride of later.

When I worked out in 24 hours gym, every time that I saw people pull the weight by freezing the body and only move the arms. Just by seeing it, it gave me the creep feeling.

 

[wckf92]

The lacking of "body rotation" in WC bother me more than anything else.

Apparently the WC you learned lacked body rotation.
WC, most of it, contains body rotation a la 2nd form...

 

[DanT]

IMO, body rotation is so important. It should start from day one. After you know how to use your body, to learn how to use your arm is easy.

I strongly disagree with the approach that you train your arm first (muscle group isolation) and then train your body (body unification) later. It develops bad habit and hard to get ride of later.

When I worked out in 24 hours gym, every time that I saw people pull the weight by freezing the body and only move the arms. Just by seeing it, it gave me the creep feeling.

In most schools (from my experience), body rotation (stance turning) is taught day one. It's only in SLT that stationary techniques are done.

 

[DanT]

The other MA system turns much more.

In Wing Chun we have 90 and 180 degree turns as well:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Apparently the WC you learned lacked body rotation.
WC, most of it, contains body rotation a la 2nd form...

It's totally wrong to have to wait until the 2nd form to learn how to use the body. Also. I don't mean just turn the body but to turn the body with the punch. If we compare these 2 clips, you can see that WC body turning is not enough.

 

[Martial D]

In the Wing Chun I learned, you rotate the body when you punch, namely the hip, especially when punching from a distance. It's a slightly different mechanic than boxing though.

And as someone who says he has experience in wc you should also know why in SNT the body isn't rotated yet in CK and BJ there is rotation which is connected with the punch. Or, possibly you don't know.

Shifting. The front foot becomes the back foot and the straight punch ends on a 45 degree angle. Very different than typical boxing or kickboxing hip rotation. In boxing it's more of a pivot on the inside hip, where in WC one hip moves forward and the other backwards. Does this match your WC experience?

 

[wckf92]

It's totally wrong to have to wait until the 2nd form to learn how to use the body. Also. I don't mean just turn the body but to turn the body with the punch. If we compare these 2 clips, you can see that WC body turning is not enough.

I understand, but IME, one learns turning horse punching mechanics one day one and it is trained along side 1st form methods because it takes time to learn and internalize.
But, I agree that waiting till 2nd form to learn waist power generation methods is too late.

 

[drop bear]

the prime consideration in a fight is not to get hit hard, or better, at all, that's best,achieved by being very mobile, if i spend 2 mins moving back and side ways with out throwing a blow and avoid being hit that a win, you don't need to be rooted to throw a good punch or kick, last night i was doing jumping kicks, not at all rooted, if you do need a root, you only need it for half a second whilst you throw, .

to be fair i find karate a bit odd as well, I'm not standing there blocking punches, I'm either moving away, or I'm going forward and beating them to the punch, standing there like a tree seems the worst possible decision

You don't have to be stationary to be rooted in to the ground.

Nobody else does that.

 

[drop bear]

If you try that out, let me know what you think. I imagine Muay Thai would be the best art with a "long range game" to blend with WC, much in the same way I think Judo/BJJ is the best grappling art to fit with it.

Why do people think judo BJJ is the best art for strikers?

 

[Martial D]

You don't have to be stationary to be rooted in to the ground.

Nobody else does that.

Ya, I'm not sure where the idea that WC is stationary comes from. Forward, ever forward.

 

[drop bear]

If you have ever fought golden glove boxing, you will find out that your opponent are all animals. They try to kill you in the ring. Since you try to knock down your opponent ASAP, you then add "body rotation" into your punch, and you start to violate the WC principle.

The lacking of "body rotation" in WC bother me more than anything else.

We have I think 2 golden gloves in our gym and a few silvers.

It is not that bad.

Hell I am thinking of having a crack next time it comes around.

 

[drop bear]

Ya, I'm not sure where the idea that WC is stationary comes from. Forward, ever forward.

Or where mobility and stability is some sort of trade off.

 

[DanT]

It's totally wrong to have to wait until the 2nd form to learn how to use the body. Also. I don't mean just turn the body but to turn the body with the punch. If we compare these 2 clips, you can see that WC body turning is not enough.

I just said that most schools start teaching Hip and stance rotation in drills from day one. Yes, in SLT you are mostly stationary, but that is simply to set an easier goal for beginner students.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[DanT]

Shifting. The front foot becomes the back foot and the straight punch ends on a 45 degree angle. Very different than typical boxing or kickboxing hip rotation. In boxing it's more of a pivot on the inside hip, where in WC one hip moves forward and the other backwards. Does this match your WC experience?

Well let's say if your standing in a typical fighting guard with your left foot forward and both hands up. In Wing Chun the back heel would be flat on the ground, in boxing it would be up right?

There are three main mechanical differences of the straight punches between boxing and Wing Chun (the way I was taught), namely:

- In boxing the shoulder is up, in Wing Chun the shoulders are down

- in boxing the back heel is up, in Wing Chun the back heel is planted

-in boxing the fist is horizontal with the elbow out, in Wing Chun the fist is vertical with the elbow down

-both styles turn the hips and shoulders when throwing the 1-2 combination (at least in the way I was taught).

 

[drop bear]

Well let's say if your standing in a typical fighting guard with your left foot forward and both hands up. In Wing Chun the back heel would be flat on the ground, in boxing it would be up right?

There are three main mechanical differences of the straight punches between boxing and Wing Chun (the way I was taught), namely:

- In boxing the shoulder is up, in Wing Chun the shoulders are down

- in boxing the back heel is up, in Wing Chun the back heel is planted

-in boxing the fist is horizontal with the elbow out, in Wing Chun the fist is vertical with the elbow down

-both styles turn the hips and shoulders when throwing the 1-2 combination (at least in the way I was taught).

Yeah see I got the impression that wing chun stances in to everything. So you don't rotate as much as walk in to position.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's totally wrong to have to wait until the 2nd form to learn how to use the body. Also. I don't mean just turn the body but to turn the body with the punch. If we compare these 2 clips, you can see that WC body turning is not enough.

The Hung ga guy in the Batman shirt is mostly missing the body connection when he rotates. Rather than rotate and punching in unison, he is turning his body and shifting his stance while allowing his root to disconnect in that transition. Once he has transitioned, THEN he is punching. This undermines the purpose in the rotation. Doing it this way is little more than arms alone, without body rotation.

For starters, he needs to stop picking his feet up to transition. He needs to drive the feet down and turn them, driving the body, the work gets done during the rotation, not by turning and stepping into a stance and then punching.

This is a subtlety that most people miss.