Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?

[Colin_Linz]

I don’t do Aikido, although I have trained in it at times. In Shorinji Kempo our juho is similar to Aikido in a number of ways. What I have noticed is that students that do weight training on a regular basis have much more trouble learning the techniques, this is also true to a lesser extent with our goho waza. To be honest I don’t know if there is a physiological reason for this or if it is just because they can mask bad technique with strength and therefore don’t get to understand the techniques as completely. I do know that some of the best ways of understanding some of our techniques is to train with females. As a generalisation they are physically weaker than men and to get to apply the techniques effectively they need to develop a very good technical understanding of them.

Another aspect I have noticed is that many people that do regular weight training tend to move very robotically and carry a lot of tension in their bodies. I don’t know the cause of this and it is not an across the board observation, just one that applies to the majority of weight training students I have observed of the years.

 

[hakuda]

Hi
weights and aiki go hand in hand you just have to change the way you look at it.
remember the guys in goju use weights to develop sencertivity as much as strength.
i can explain more if needed.

Dan

 

[howard]

Weight training isn't rubbish Jenna my friend. In fact, it is very good for the body and particularly beneficial for women.

Fat is burned...not in the intestines, not in the stomach, in the muscle tissues. More muscle tissue burns more fat ergo less risk for middle age paunch and all kinds of good things.

Weight bearing or load bearing exercises also increase bone density....which is of paramount importance for women as we get older, given our propensity for osteoporosis and other things that make us shrink and give us bad backs and otherwise be rather uncomfortable.

Load-bearing exercises could be jogging or walking uphill, but training with weights ensure a more complete body workout.

Weight training can be a particular benefit to women, Akidoka or not. However, there is quite a bit of scariness associated with such a thing.

Many women are trapped in to thinking that weigths make us look like some muscle-bound steroid-enhanced freak. Women can pump up naturally but it takes SERIOUSLY HARD training do do so. I lift regularly and I dare anyone to tell me I look pumped up. I don't.

Muscle tissue also weighs more than fat...and unfortunately some women get obsessed with what the numbers on the scale mean...even though women that weight train often look LEANER at a higher weight. Higher weight from improved muscle tissue, leaner from improved fat burning.

Now...specifically for Akidoka...you use your muscles. We all do. To put one foot in front of the other in a walking motion requires muscles. To raise your hand over your head requires muscles. To sit upright in your chair requries muscles. You use your muscles in your techniques, you just don't rely on brute strength.

Muscles are an important part of an everyone's body...including Akidoka. Respect them, and they will return the respect when you need them.

Very nice post IMO. You've made several excellent points.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I doubt that anyone would say that weight training is not good for women or men. It does have very real health and fitness benefits.

Where I have seen it present as a problem in the past is how it affects peoples technique. As I said earlier I’m not an Aikidoka, but our Juho works using similar principles and techniques. Over the last 18 years I have noticed that all the kenshi that do a lot of weight training tend to rely on strength rather than technique, and quite a lot of them can’t move smoothly.

Now it may be that these people have not been taught to weight train correctly. It may be possible to do weight training and still learn good technique or not move like Robo Cop; and that I have only observed people that learnt poor training methods. If this is the case it demonstrates how hard it is to get decent instruction in weight training.

 

[Hand Sword]

Here, I would argue that instruction was poor, or not enough thoughtful practice by the participants was the cause. Using strength shows an immature martial art mentality. Everybody does it in the beginning, but enough time and practice improves the application.

As for moving smoothly, muscled athletes have no problem with that. Take pro Football players. Smoothness, speed, agility, and sensitivity are all present. Look at Pro wrestlers as well. Same thing applies.

If the idea is of body builders. Then I would agree with the assessments above. They can push/pull heavy weights with no problem, but, not much else. You can build up with no athletic ability to be a body builder, But applying the arts forces you to use athletic attributes, great or small.

 

[Colin_Linz]

That could be a reason, though I doubt it. It is true that people do try to use strength over technique when new to martial arts; however when you notice a range of students from diverse clubs and countries, and the commonality is that they do a lot of weight training it makes you wonder why.

I think strong people in general take a little longer to develop skill sets like the ones Aikido use. I don’t think it is conscious action of theirs, just that their strength lets them get away with not taking the balance quite right or getting the angles of manipulation quite right. I know I learned a lot from my last visit to Japan where I got the chance to train with some experienced females. Being only small and light they have had no option than to get the techniques spot on or they fail to work.

Now I have no argument with weight training in general, but in the context of the question “will weight training be of benefit to my Aikido”? I would say that since Aikido does not rely on strength then there might be more effective ways to use the training time.

 

[Colin_Linz]

As for moving smoothly, muscled athletes have no problem with that. Take pro Football players. Smoothness, speed, agility, and sensitivity are all present. Look at Pro wrestlers as well. Same thing applies.

We had a TV show out here called Dancing With The Stars. One of the contestants was a top footballer; obviously he had done quite a bit of weight training as no one has muscles like that normally. There is no doubt that he moved well on a football field, but given the different environment and demands of dance he moved like (in the words of one of the judges) a block of flats.

I know that this doesn’t prove anything and that some footballers might be able to dance, but then not all footballers look like him either. So perhaps when it come to weight training it may depend greatly on how much you devote to weight training and the type of weight training you do.

 

[Hand Sword]

We had a TV show out here called Dancing With The Stars. One of the contestants was a top footballer; obviously he had done quite a bit of weight training as no one has muscles like that normally. There is no doubt that he moved well on a football field, but given the different environment and demands of dance he moved like (in the words of one of the judges) a block of flats.

I know that this doesn’t prove anything and that some footballers might be able to dance, but then not all footballers look like him either. So perhaps when it come to weight training it may depend greatly on how much you devote to weight training and the type of weight training you do.

O.k. From the beginning, to the end there was a vast improvement in their dancing ability though, where they were convincing weren't they? It also crossed over on another show for figure skating. Again, in the end, HUGE improvements, some with great performances. I've also seen Aikidoka that moved like a block of flats also. Anything takes time and correct practice Aikido, football, etc.. So, no it doesn't prove anything. Apparently this football player was one of a few, and not the prototype. However, even he, with enough attention, could learn Aikido, dancing, or whatever.

Yes. How you weight train does matter. Yes. Traing time is the key to Aikido (even more so than the other styles)--and, this applies to everyone.

 

[Hand Sword]

That could be a reason, though I doubt it. It is true that people do try to use strength over technique when new to martial arts; however when you notice a range of students from diverse clubs and countries, and the commonality is that they do a lot of weight training it makes you wonder why.

I think strong people in general take a little longer to develop skill sets like the ones Aikido use. I don’t think it is conscious action of theirs, just that their strength lets them get away with not taking the balance quite right or getting the angles of manipulation quite right. I know I learned a lot from my last visit to Japan where I got the chance to train with some experienced females. Being only small and light they have had no option than to get the techniques spot on or they fail to work.

Now I have no argument with weight training in general, but in the context of the question “will weight training be of benefit to my Aikido”? I would say that since Aikido does not rely on strength then there might be more effective ways to use the training time.

I agree with the second assessment. However, with enough time and practice, anyone could gain correct Aikido movements. It doesn't just have to be for strong people either. A lot of people, big and small, are uncoordinated. Aikido is a lot more difficult to get than other styles, which focus on hard movements. Also, yes being based on technique, smaller people are at an advantage in the beginning. Their whole lives have adapted to getting things done being smaller and weaker. Also remember that the first Aikidoka were men, who are bigger and stronger than the women, and look at how magical the old masters became. Proof of this argument.

As for your first assessment, could be many factors.

Last, Yes, I also agree that time and Aikido practice is the key to getting it. (for everyone) And the context is whether or not weight training is TOTAL RUBBISH. In that context, no it is not. There are benefits.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I agree with the second assessment. However, with enough time and practice, anyone could gain correct Aikido movements. It doesn't just have to be for strong people either. A lot of people, big and small, are uncoordinated. Aikido is a lot more difficult to get than other styles, which focus on hard movements. Also, yes being based on technique, smaller people are at an advantage in the beginning. Their whole lives have adapted to getting things done being smaller and weaker. Also remember that the first Aikidoka were men, who are bigger and stronger than the women, and look at how magical the old masters became. Proof of this argument.

As for your first assessment, could be many factors.

Last, Yes, I also agree that time and Aikido practice is the key to getting it. (for everyone) And the context is whether or not weight training is TOTAL RUBBISH. In that context, no it is not. There are benefits.

I’m not saying it would be rubbish. Just that I believe it would not deliver great gains in understanding Aikido.

It was my understanding that Aikido’s founder was slightly built and sickly as a youth. This could be why he came to have a different understanding of his roots and developed Aikido. Doshin So, found when he started teaching Shorinji Kempo that he needed to change some of his techniques as he was a strong man in comparison to others at the time so he modified them so smaller and less strong people could apply them.

Size is no barrier to understanding the techniques; people of all sizes have different levels of natural abilities, and were they don't practice and experience will eventually succeed. It just seemed to me that people that heavily weight train seem to make this barrier a little larger, and therefore take a little longer to get it compared to others.

 

[HG1]

Jenna-

Strength training, not a body building program or plyometrics are an excellent addition to your martial arts regimen. Developing athletic attributes will only enhance sensitivity, coordination & power of your technique. As an added bonus your physique will benefit as well. That being said, I do agree with you the training of the martial art has to take priority over everything else.

 

[Hand Sword]

I’m not saying it would be rubbish. Just that I believe it would not deliver great gains in understanding Aikido.

It was my understanding that Aikido’s founder was slightly built and sickly as a youth. This could be why he came to have a different understanding of his roots and developed Aikido. Doshin So, found when he started teaching Shorinji Kempo that he needed to change some of his techniques as he was a strong man in comparison to others at the time so he modified them so smaller and less strong people could apply them.

Size is no barrier to understanding the techniques; people of all sizes have different levels of natural abilities, and were they don't practice and experience will eventually succeed. It just seemed to me that people that heavily weight train seem to make this barrier a little larger, and therefore take a little longer to get it compared to others.

Aah oK! I also agree with that. Heavy weight training (body building for size) trains the muscles one way, Aikido training another. People doing that would take a little longer to get it.

 

[eyebeams]

Morihei Ueshiba practiced strength training. He was called a "tetsujin" at the peak of his training. 'Nuff said.

 

[tempus]

Also, be aware that you can strength train and not gain huge amounts of muscle so your flexibility will still be there. I think I mentioned this a long time ago, but I may look at things differently. I train in Aikido for the slef defense aspect and I do believe that no matter how much time I train there is the chance in a situation that I will make a mistake, since I do make them in my attack lines. With that being said when a mistake is made I am strong enough to generate enough force to get the attacker moving again, throw an attacker or strike with a lot of power. So I am one Aikido person who sees being stronger as good thing. Will this change when I am in my eighties and lose that strength? - Not sure, but I will let you know in about 44 years

 

[HG1]

I train Aikido for self defense I believe that no matter how much time I train there is the chance in a situation that I will make a mistake, since I do make them in my attack lines. With that being said when a mistake is made I am strong enough to generate enough force to get the attacker moving again, throw an attacker or strike with a lot of power.

Yes! Practice makes perfect, that's the ideal we as martial artist strive for - perfect technique. The reality is we will probably be somewhere between 30%-70% percent of perfection in combat. Strength &/or power is where the difference is made up.

 

[exile]

So I am one Aikido person who sees being stronger as good thing. Will this change when I am in my eighties and lose that strength? - Not sure, but I will let you know in about 44 years

Tempus---

the more you train for strength now (and continue training), the stronger you'll be in your 80s. I read a couple of studies a few years back carried out by exercise physiologists interested in the effectiveness of strength training for older people. The authors of both studies noted, with something like genuine surprise, that older people, even those with seriously reduced mobility, responsed quite dramatically to well-designed resistance training regimes, significantly increasing their muscle mass and consequently bone strength. What this said to me was that the metabolic effects of serious weight training can trigger muscle development even in the very old (some of these people were in their 90s), which shows that there is no point where it just `switches off'. So while you likely won't be as strong in forty-four years as your weight training has made you to this point, you will---if you keep it up---be way stronger than you would be if you weren't still doing it at that point.

I keep running into posts where people seem to believe that muscular development slows you down. But Bruce Lee, who was incredibly fast and fluid in his movements till the day he died, was an avid strength trainer who throughout his life experimented with ways to increase his lean muscle mass. I remember photos of him from the last years of his career---he was like a walking anatomical chart of human muscle groups, and people who knew him remember him as being both quick and with a phenomenal strength-to-weight ratio. And as far as sensitivity is concerned---I'm no Aikidoist, but as was stated earlier in several posts on this forum, from a purely neurophysiological angle, there is absolutely no reason why increased muscle mass would compromise awareness of what is taking place at the level of the skin. So all in all, I can't see why weight training should be a deficit for Aikido practitioners any more than it is for people in the striking arts...

 

[tempus]

I got my personal training certificate a few months ago. I have to get credits in other studies to keep it. I just finished studying functional training which has added a lot to my work outs. It is training based on body movement and not by muscle groups. It does a lot with bands, medicine balls, and dumbbells. It is very good training for martial artists. I rently started playing around with throwing a medicine ball as high and far as it could go, run over, squat to pick up and thro it back. After like 20 you get winded and it works the arms, shoulders, back and legs. Mix this up with Squats, deadliftsm etc... and you get well rounded workouts for strength, endurance and core.

My next study will be body weight training and then training the elderly. So once I get to that I will probaly hit a lot of those studies. I hope it is true that I will still have some of the better then average strangth at 80. I spent a lot of money on my weights and would hate to not use them

 

[exile]

I got my personal training certificate a few months ago. I have to get credits in other studies to keep it. I just finished studying functional training which has added a lot to my work outs. It is training based on body movement and not by muscle groups. It does a lot with bands, medicine balls, and dumbbells. It is very good training for martial artists. I rently started playing around with throwing a medicine ball as high and far as it could go, run over, squat to pick up and thro it back. After like 20 you get winded and it works the arms, shoulders, back and legs. Mix this up with Squats, deadliftsm etc... and you get well rounded workouts for strength, endurance and core.

I've mostly done high-intensity Mentzer/Sisco & Little style training---very heavy, best-leverage-range weights, very short reps, power rack sort of thing. I've added a lot of muscle over the past decade (which began when I was 50, so I can attest personally to the fact that your age doesn't present a real obstacle to strength gains and muscle growth---between then and now I've added on about 25 lbs of lean muscle, over when I started---`only' two and half lbs a year, on average; but if you keep doing it....). But the program you describe sounds quite interesting---something aimed at fluidity and quickness, maybe?

My next study will be body weight training and then training the elderly. So once I get to that I will probaly hit a lot of those studies. I hope it is true that I will still have some of the better then average strangth at 80.

As far as I know, every study of weight training in the elderly ever carried out (not that there have been a huge number of them) has supported the bottom-line conclusion that a well-designed program can deliver strength gains and muscle growth at any age. And while the research I was referring to didn't have a lot to say about osteoporosis in general, it definitely showed that the bone density of the people in the study increased in proportion to their growth in muscularity---as you'd expect, eh?

I spent a lot of money on my weights and would hate to not use them

I figure, as long as you keep using them, those weights are going to pay you big dividends...

 

[exile]

Gave up on squats, though---way too much spinal compression, even though I used a manta ray. Leg presses are much safer, I think...

 

[tempus]

I have recnetly dropped the weight on my squats and started going a little lower. I was finding that I was not able to get low enought for some of techniques. Also, finially got the form and contracting of Ab's during the form correctly down. I do have a leg press in the basement, should have seen my wife's face when that showed up at the front door. It is kind of buried now while I finish off the basement. I have the sanding and paint part left. I have it setup where half is a weight room and the other half I can lay three 8ft x 4ft mats for Aikido training. I also have a heavy bag in the far corner and a treadmill area. Just have to find the time to finish everything.

Not sure if I can plug things on this forum, but the functional training book I just finshed was from a guy named Juan Carlos Santana. I think amazon has some of his books and DVD's. The books are cheaper then the study version I bought since I have to pay for the testing afterwards.