Tired of hearing “it doesn’t work”

[yorkshirelad]

No martial art works unless the person practising the art is able and willing. I know people who have trained in MMA for years and with the finest coaches and still can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. On the other hand, I know Aikidoka who are seriously bad ***. It's not the art that is effective, it's the the person.

What do people mean by "works"? I know the arts that I train in work. They have introduced me to fine people. They have contributed to my health. They have given me some great memories. In fact, they have resulted in the betterment of my life in numerous ways. But what about effectiveness on the street? Who care? The majority of street fighters I've known have not been happy people. Most people will never get to test their art in real life , so why not train for the pure joy of it and forget the street fighting?

 

[Manny]

The same I've been told about TKD. "TKD is only kicking and does not work at short ranges" ..... well at short ranges I have my fists to create room to kick. "TKD high kicks are worthless and easy grabing" Well in some cases yes, that's why I must aim to the gut and then to the head, and I can go on and on.

The truth is any martial art can be efective in an actual street fight, the most important thing is the mental awarness and the desire to survive the confrontation, afther that no matter if it's aikido, or judo or karate or the silly martial art of TKD.

One must to exell in his/her training and train hard to get tough and always be cool at head and hot at heart.

Manny

 

[RoninX]

Hello everyone,
Please pardon my rant but I am tired of hearing the complaint of "Aikido doesn't work".

The problem is that most of the people don´t believe in the theory of "this can´t be done to a resistant opponent in a dojo or ring, but can be done to a resistant opponent in the str33t". If you have no way to prove your art is really effective, then you´re gonna have to deal with all the skepticism. People want to see the proof. Theory was good enough 30 years ago, but now things are different.

I bet most of you who defend Aikido in this forum never really got to use it in a street fight. Of course, all of you have a story; all of you KNOWS it works. But i wonder how many of you are really telling the truth, and how many of you have ever really put a good number of Aikido techniques into alive application.


I think Aikido is ineffective. And if you think i´m an "idiot" or an "ignorant", maybe you´re ignoring the possibility of you being the real "ignorant", because there is more people who laugh at Aikido than people who actually believe it works. Every single person that i know with real experience in combat don´t give a damn about Aikido. The only ones i still know that believe in Aikido are nerds who never actually fought, and live from the fantasy of their deadly moves being really effective, when in fact they´re not.

Oh, yeah, the good old story: "they don´t understand". Yeah, we don´t understand. We don´t know. We are ignorants. Isn´t that something many cults say? Well, i think the lack of brainwashing sessions plus some intelligence made me not believe in Aikido´s effectiveness.

Does Aikido have something who can really work? Every martial art has; even Tai Chi. But, if i wanted to train for self defense, would i go for Aikido? NOOOO! Why should i do that?

- Aikido´s techniques are too irrealistic. They look like they´ve been taken from a movie. Most moves only make sense if you assume your opponent wouldn´t fight back.

- To some of the moves have a chance to work you would have to practice them for dozens of years. Life is too short. Sorry.

- Most of Aikidoka don´t spar, and when they do, is under very limited conditions. Plus, they actually belive you don´t need to spar to make something work. Any real fighter would laugh at you, that´s for sure. Oh, yeah, now you say "Ohhh, what they do is sport, bla, bla, bla". Well, i rather believe in some guy who has actually been in fights, even though they were in the ring, than in a guy who doesn´t even know what is like to punch someone in the face, and the only physical contact with an opponent he ever had was in their Dojo, with compilant training partners.


I know just too many people who have achived high ranks in Aikido and are now training stuff like Judo, Boxing, BJJ and Stick Fighting. Maybe you´re not the one who "knows the truth". Maybe you are not the one right, and maybe we are also not the true ignorants.

Deal with it!

 

[Manny]

The problem is that most of the people don´t believe in the theory of "this can´t be done to a resistant opponent in a dojo or ring, but can be done to a resistant opponent in the str33t". If you have no way to prove your art is really effective, then you´re gonna have to deal with all the skepticism. People want to see the proof. Theory was good enough 30 years ago, but now things are different.

I bet most of you who defend Aikido in this forum never really got to use it in a street fight. Of course, all of you have a story; all of you KNOWS it works. But i wonder how many of you are really telling the truth, and how many of you have ever really put a good number of Aikido techniques into alive application.


I think Aikido is ineffective. And if you think i´m an "idiot" or an "ignorant", maybe you´re ignoring the possibility of you being the real "ignorant", because there is more people who laugh at Aikido than people who actually believe it works. Every single person that i know with real experience in combat don´t give a damn about Aikido. The only ones i still know that believe in Aikido are nerds who never actually fought, and live from the fantasy of their deadly moves being really effective, when in fact they´re not.

Oh, yeah, the good old story: "they don´t understand". Yeah, we don´t understand. We don´t know. We are ignorants. Isn´t that something many cults say? Well, i think the lack of brainwashing sessions plus some intelligence made me not believe in Aikido´s effectiveness.

Does Aikido have something who can really work? Every martial art has; even Tai Chi. But, if i wanted to train for self defense, would i go for Aikido? NOOOO! Why should i do that?

- Aikido´s techniques are too irrealistic. They look like they´ve been taken from a movie. Most moves only make sense if you assume your opponent wouldn´t fight back.

- To some of the moves have a chance to work you would have to practice them for dozens of years. Life is too short. Sorry.

- Most of Aikidoka don´t spar, and when they do, is under very limited conditions. Plus, they actually belive you don´t need to spar to make something work. Any real fighter would laugh at you, that´s for sure. Oh, yeah, now you say "Ohhh, what they do is sport, bla, bla, bla". Well, i rather believe in some guy who has actually been in fights, even though they were in the ring, than in a guy who doesn´t even know what is like to punch someone in the face, and the only physical contact with an opponent he ever had was in their Dojo, with compilant training partners.


I know just too many people who have achived high ranks in Aikido and are now training stuff like Judo, Boxing, BJJ and Stick Fighting. Maybe you´re not the one who "knows the truth". Maybe you are not the one right, and maybe we are also not the true ignorants.

Deal with it!

Because of your writing I can asume you are a person who has tremendous experience in street fights, bar fights,etc,etc, and your background in MA is extense, don't get me wrong I am not jocking you, I just asume you are a versed person in self defense and you have many real fights on your back.

Well I have not any experience in real fighting, just a modest background in TKD with some knowledge of Kenpo Karate and a few lessons of aikido and judo, my fighting experience are the few tournaments as a teen.

I think a person with knowledge of any martial art can defend him/her self on the streets, please read CAN what determines if they can survive an atack is the desire to survive, and even persons without any martial art background have a chance to survive.

Yes, some moves in aikido or judo or tkd can be weird, however I think aikido has some good technikes and the diligent aikidoka can master them and can use them sucesfully in a bar fight or even in the street.

We must remeber is not the arrow what kills but the indian who send the arrow.

Personally I hope never have to fight for my life or the life of my beloved ones, this could be like hell, however I would rather train in some martial art that can give me certain edge than sitting in the couch everynight to watch UFC or MMA with a beer and a bowl of chips.

Don't get me wrong, every martial arts desserves respect, maybe I won't like capoeira but this does not mean that I can speak openly and say it does not work because I don't really know.

Thank you for share your point of view here.

Manny

 

[Aiki Lee]

The problem is that most of the people don´t believe in the theory of "this can´t be done to a resistant opponent in a dojo or ring, but can be done to a resistant opponent in the str33t". If you have no way to prove your art is really effective, then you´re gonna have to deal with all the skepticism. People want to see the proof. Theory was good enough 30 years ago, but now things are different.

My father is a retired police officer. He's been attacked by people before. He used aikido. He was never hurt on the job. What more proof would anyone need?

I bet most of you who defend Aikido in this forum never really got to use it in a street fight. Of course, all of you have a story; all of you KNOWS it works. But i wonder how many of you are really telling the truth, and how many of you have ever really put a good number of Aikido techniques into alive application.

Aikido is not specifically meant for SD, though its applications can be used for it. Aikido is a philosophical martial art designed to get people in touch with harmony and therefore avoid conflict which is the most reasonable and effective form of SD in the first place.

I think Aikido is ineffective.

Based on what exactly? Your limited view on what self-defense means?

And if you think i´m an "idiot" or an "ignorant", maybe you´re ignoring the possibility of you being the real "ignorant", because there is more people who laugh at Aikido than people who actually believe it works.

People often mock what they do not understand.

Every single person that i know with real experience in combat don´t give a damn about Aikido. The only ones i still know that believe in Aikido are nerds who never actually fought, and live from the fantasy of their deadly moves being really effective, when in fact they´re not..

Aikido is not designed for fighting. It is designed to avoid conflict. SD applications of aiki based techniques redirect aggressive momentum. You would not use it against a "cagey" person or someone coming at you with a boxing mentality of jabbing at you. An aikidoka would not put up with this nonsense as such a display is not aggressive enough to be considered a threat worth defending against and are not presented in real world scenarios unless you are a brawler. Aikidoka do not get into fights. If an aggresive person attacks, they redirect the aggression.

Oh, yeah, the good old story: "they don´t understand". Yeah, we don´t understand. We don´t know. We are ignorants. Isn´t that something many cults say? Well, i think the lack of brainwashing sessions plus some intelligence made me not believe in Aikido´s effectiveness.

Of course you don't understand it. You have no experience with it.

Does Aikido have something who can really work? Every martial art has; even Tai Chi. But, if i wanted to train for self defense, would i go for Aikido? NOOOO! Why should i do that? .

You shouldn't. Aikido is not primarily practiced for SD, though its teachings have SD applications like other arts. If someone wanted to do aikido for SD they would need to alter a few training methodologies.

Aikido´s techniques are too irrealistic. They look like they´ve been taken from a movie. Most moves only make sense if you assume your opponent wouldn´t fight back. .

I can vouch from experience that they are not unrealistic. It depends on who is teaching you. As I already stated aikido on its own is not designed for SD. And aiki techniques require the opponent to keep coming after you, so the last sentence in the quote above cements that fact that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

To some of the moves have a chance to work you would have to practice them for dozens of years. Life is too short. Sorry.

Aikido and other martial arts should offer training that is meant to last an entire lifetime. Practicing these skills diligently in the correct atmosphere will help you use them in SD situations, but the do take time to learn which is why if you only care about learning how to defend yourself fast this is not the approach you should take.

Most of Aikidoka don´t spar, and when they do, is under very limited conditions. Plus, they actually belive you don´t need to spar to make something work. Any real fighter would laugh at you, that´s for sure. Oh, yeah, now you say "Ohhh, what they do is sport, bla, bla, bla". Well, i rather believe in some guy who has actually been in fights, even though they were in the ring, than in a guy who doesn´t even know what is like to punch someone in the face, and the only physical contact with an opponent he ever had was in their Dojo, with compilant training partners.

*sigh*
Sparring is a sport oriented concept. Randori is a training concept common in traditional Japanese martial arts. Aikidoka do not get into fights. Fighting is contratry to the teachnings of aikido. If you go your whole life without ever fighting anyone, congratulations, you have internalized the teachings of the art and it has served you well.
Sport fighting and fighting to protect yourself are completely different. In aikido the goal in SD is to avoid injury not beat the other guy up. Your concept of what is SD and what make a martial art useful or "correct" is juvenile and based on nothing more than your own limited definitions of self defense and what it means to be effective.

I know just too many people who have achived high ranks in Aikido and are now training stuff like Judo, Boxing, BJJ and Stick Fighting. Maybe you´re not the one who "knows the truth". Maybe you are not the one right, and maybe we are also not the true ignorants..

What do you consider high rank? How many aikidoka do you know? How long did they study? How old are they? Why did they switch arts? Did they tell you or are you guessing?

By the way "ignorant" is an adjective not a noun. Learn some grammar for God's sake.

Deal with it!

It is one thing to have a different opinion about why a person should or shouldn't study aikido. It is another thing to bash aikidoka and claim they don't know what their own art is supposed to be teaching them.

You are a troll. Get out.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Oh, he's been banned.

Good. If I ever meet the mods in person I will buy you guys a drink.

 

[K-man]

Oh, he's been banned.

Good. If I ever meet the mods in person I will buy you guys a drink.

Couldn't agree more. The problem in giving guys like that air is that they drive a lot of good people away and certainly we seem to be losing our aikido fraternity. There are instructors from all the major disciplines such as TKD, Karate, WC etc but unfortunately Aikido seems to be under represented from the technical perspective. That's really sad because it detracts from the quality of the whole forum.

My thanks too, to whoever closed the guy down. :asian:

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree. I like this forum because there are so many individuals who understand different arts.

I will likely start posting here more often, as our dojo has brought in Johnny Tenegra to teach us aikido. The main purpose of this is to improve our understanding of aiki for our art of aiki ninjutsu, but learning aikido as a seperate art is pretty cool too.

Sadly my second class with him was saturday and I screwed up my shoulder by messing up a rather basic ukemi. How embarrassing. I'm probably out for a week or two and just on the sidelines watching or doing limited practice.

 

[fangjian]

In aikido the goal in SD is to avoid injury not beat the other guy up.

This is a concept that I have heard frequently, I suppose, most associated with Aikido. When I teach martial arts, I teach to basically to attack until you are sure you have neutralized the threat. Wether it is buy headbutts to their nose, downward elbow on their neck if they try to tackle etc. You know, things that will hurt them. It's not that I am saying 'overkill' either. If your lucky enough to disarm someone you don't go and stab them 20 times.

I've heard some other Aikidoka here mention they also train these techniques too ( headbutting, fish hooking etc. ). It seems counter to the 'not trying to beat the other guy up' mentality.

Could someone shed some light on this?

 

[Aiki Lee]

The headbutts, throws, stikes, and joint destructions are the result of the attack continuing to pursue his target. Aikidoka do not attack people, they put their head, arms, legs, and hips in the wa of a person continung his momentum. The attacker beats himself up, because he doesn't stop attacking.

If i perform irimi nage (which resembles something like a clothesline to the neck if you are unfamiliar with it), i deflect the oppoent's initial attack and get to his dead space behind him, I place my hands on his neck and elbow and spiral down towards the ground. If the opponent continues to resist (which he will), pressure is relieved on my part and so he springs back up into the crux of my elbow where I throw him by the neck. He likely takes injury from the hit to the neck and the fall.

I don't beat him up, he beats up himself. If he stopped attacking me, the throw does not present itself. If there is no aggressive energy on behalf of the attacker then he is not attacking. There is no fight if there is no aggressor, there is no aiki if there is no energy.

 

[Manny]

What I know of aikido is to avoid conflict if this is not possible then use the force of the agresor to put him/her down, if he still resists the use of points of presure,joint locks, dislocate or break a limb.

Using aikido to deflect and redirectione the bad ki the bad guy is using can cause tremendous pain even concusion.

Manny

 

[fangjian]

The headbutts, throws, stikes, and joint destructions are the result of the attack continuing to pursue his target. Aikidoka do not attack people, they put their head, arms, legs, and hips in the wa of a person continung his momentum. The attacker beats himself up, because he doesn't stop attacking.

If i perform irimi nage (which resembles something like a clothesline to the neck if you are unfamiliar with it), i deflect the oppoent's initial attack and get to his dead space behind him, I place my hands on his neck and elbow and spiral down towards the ground. If the opponent continues to resist (which he will), pressure is relieved on my part and so he springs back up into the crux of my elbow where I throw him by the neck. He likely takes injury from the hit to the neck and the fall.

I don't beat him up, he beats up himself. If he stopped attacking me, the throw does not present itself. If there is no aggressive energy on behalf of the attacker then he is not attacking. There is no fight if there is no aggressor, there is no aiki if there is no energy.

I am familiar with Irimi nage. It is a very useful technique/concept.

Hypothetically speaking:
Ok. Someone attacks, you get into the clinch. You begin Irimi nage because of his forward intent. In the middle of the movement, he stops attacking, because his ukemi sucks and he lost balance. You say the 'throw' doesn't present itself. So then what do you do?
Don't you take advantage of his loss of balance and begin beating the crap out of him?

In the Aikido community I always here things like ' In this style we take care of our enemy, and try not to hurt him', kind of attitude. As if an 8 year old picked a fight with you, and you're doing your best just to 'blend 'with their energy and such, and doing the absolute minimum without hurting the person.
This mindset seems silly if one were training self defense techniques to use on an adult assailant.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Would I beat the crap out of him? Maybe.
If he stays on the ground and doesn't struggle then no I would either leave or subdue him if it was necessary.

If he goes down and struggles then I will follow through with a different aiki technique (which is probably what a more experienced aikidoka would do), I would probably stomp him though since I mainly practice aiki ninjutsu.

If he tries to get back up then I apply irimi nage.

I don't think aikido by itself is ideal for self defense, that's why I don't only practice aikido.

 

[pgsmith]

This mindset seems silly if one were training self defense techniques to use on an adult assailant.

This, I believe, is at the crux of the problem that many people have with aikido. A great many people believe that aikido is practicing and learning 'techniques' to use against an agressor, but it isn't. Aikido is taught in very much the same way that the Japanese koryu arts are taught. That being that you learn a method of thinking and movement, rather than individual 'techniques'. Sure there are names for individual movements such as irime nage or kote gaeshi, but those techniques, and the practices that go with them, are meant to train you how to move your body in relation to that of your opponent. The names and individual movements are only for training. When faced with an aggressor, an experienced aikidoka does not think "ah, he's moving this way so perhaps I'll try irime nage." An experienced aikidoka will simply move and blend with his opponent as he's been taught, and there may not be any recognizeable technique that he ever actually practiced in his aikido class.

Because of this method of training, many people look at video from an aikido class and complain about how there is no resistance, and what they are practicing wouldn't work in the real world. This is absolutely true, but it is how the underlying method of thought and movement is taught, and is quite effective in the end. As in the koryu arts that it came from, aikido is difficult and takes a long time to learn well. This is why not everyone is suited for it.

Just like the koryu arts, there will be a lot of people that don't believe that aikido is worth the effort, and that's OK. As long as a person is enjoying their training, then it doesn't really matter what others think of it as in the end, we are only training for ourselves.

 

[fangjian]

I don't think aikido by itself is ideal for self defense, that's why I don't only practice aikido.

Why do you say that? This seems counter to what you and everyone was saying to me in other threads.

Btw, I'm not an Aikido hater or anything. I see its value, which is why I will begin training it again soon. I want that 'root' that some in the internal styles have. I don't want to have to sprawl so much anymore. I want wrestlers to hit that double leg and bounce right off of me

This, I believe, is at the crux of the problem that many people have with aikido. A great many people believe that aikido is practicing and learning 'techniques' to use against an agressor, but it isn't. Aikido is taught in very much the same way that the Japanese koryu arts are taught. That being that you learn a method of thinking and movement, rather than individual 'techniques'. Sure there are names for individual movements such as irime nage or kote gaeshi, but those techniques, and the practices that go with them, are meant to train you how to move your body in relation to that of your opponent. The names and individual movements are only for training. When faced with an aggressor, an experienced aikidoka does not think "ah, he's moving this way so perhaps I'll try irime nage." An experienced aikidoka will simply move and blend with his opponent as he's been taught, and there may not be any recognizeable technique that he ever actually practiced in his aikido class.

Is this not true of most styles? It's all about muscle memory and drilling things so you don't have to think about it while sparring or in combat. How is Aikido different from any other in that regard?

 

[pgsmith]

Is this not true of most styles? It's all about muscle memory and drilling things so you don't have to think about it while sparring or in combat.

Not the same thing. Most martial arts teach counters. If someone does X, you do Y. You practice these counters until they are in your muscle memory and they occur automatically. The problem comes in when someone does something that you've not practiced a counter for. This was why BJJ was so effective when introduced into MMA fighting, it was something different that no one had practiced counters for. Aikido is a system of thought and movement rather than a collection of counters. At the higher levels, it doesn't matter what an aggressor does as your body will automatically blend and move with them and add your energy to theirs. That is the aiki portion of the art.

Unfortunately there are quite a number of people that have learned the basics and rushed out to start their own schools without learning everything that is taught below the surface. This leads to people dancing rather than training. However, this is true of all martial arts though. Caveat Emptor.

 

[fangjian]

Not the same thing. Most martial arts teach counters. If someone does X, you do Y. You practice these counters until they are in your muscle memory and they occur automatically. The problem comes in when someone does something that you've not practiced a counter for.

I teach a class for a college. The students are always quick to ask me questions on all of the what ifs. What if I grab you like this? WHat if the attacker does that? What if............?

I always have an answer. From my experience, my body moves a certain way to deal with the attack. I assume my body will counter in a way that is reminiscent of an attack I've seen before. If sparring, no one has ever attacked me with a forearm strike. I would likely treat it as if it is a 'punch' as my body is use to dealing with that. When I am bear hugged a different way, my body will deal with those 'different' (say, sideways trapping one arm) types of bear hugs in a way it is use to dealing with them.

I would imagine that if you are high level Aikido, or high level Bjj, or high level TKD, it doesn't matter how awesome your awareness and such are. You will be hit by something you have never imagined before.

Aikido trains a mindset of......... let's just say, 'blending' or 'reacting'. I don't see how that's different from whatever art. Let's say, 'freestyle wrestling'. If someone is a master wrestler, you attack them however you wish, they will 'blend' with your movements etc No?

 

[Manny]

I teach a class for a college. The students are always quick to ask me questions on all of the what ifs. What if I grab you like this? WHat if the attacker does that? What if............?

I always have an answer. From my experience, my body moves a certain way to deal with the attack. I assume my body will counter in a way that is reminiscent of an attack I've seen before. If sparring, no one has ever attacked me with a forearm strike. I would likely treat it as if it is a 'punch' as my body is use to dealing with that. When I am bear hugged a different way, my body will deal with those 'different' (say, sideways trapping one arm) types of bear hugs in a way it is use to dealing with them.

What martial art do you teach? or what martial arts do you know?

Maybe I am wrong but are you a striker/kicker? or some kind of wrestler?

Thank you in advance.

Manny

 

[K-man]

I teach a class for a college. The students are always quick to ask me questions on all of the what ifs. What if I grab you like this? WHat if the attacker does that? What if............?
......

I would imagine that if you are high level Aikido, or high level Bjj, or high level TKD, it doesn't matter how awesome your awareness and such are. You will be hit by something you have never imagined before.

Aikido trains a mindset of......... let's just say, 'blending' or 'reacting'. I don't see how that's different from whatever art. Let's say, 'freestyle wrestling'. If someone is a master wrestler, you attack them however you wish, they will 'blend' with your movements etc No?

I believe what Paul is saying is that we learn the different techniques until we can perform them without thinking. in karate we call that 'kihon'. Once the basics are mastered we relax a little and make subtle changes to the basics so they work better for us at an individual level.

Underneath all that we are not waiting for an attack, recognising it then responding. That is the beginner level. Unfortunately many schools teach this right the way to the top grades and never actually progress to the next level.

What good schools do is to train a system that can cope with any technique whether or not we have seen it before. The response becomes instinctive.

Therefore we don't actually identify an attack, we just instinctively respond to the movement. We don't consciously decide to perform technique a, b or c ... it just happens.

At the highest level I believe all the traditional MAs blend into one where the complete story against any attack is "enter with irimi, hit with kokyu". The technique itself is no longer relevent. :asian:

 

[fangjian]

What martial art do you teach? or what martial arts do you know?

Maybe I am wrong but are you a striker/kicker? or some kind of wrestler?

Thank you in advance.

Manny

I actively teach:

Balintawak

Wushu

I also teach kickboxing/grappling from experience in:
Bjj
High school wrestling
Sanda
Muay Thai
Aikido

I guess I would consider myself most comfortable in the clinch.