Aikido and X-training: No Faith?

[Henderson]

Not always. It doesn't have to be anyway. Cross-training can be about testing your skills against attacks not normally found in your art. For example, Cross-training in wrestling doesn't have to involve you learning how to shoot takedowns unless you want to. It could just be an incredible opportunity to practice your aikido against a good takedown -one that probably isn't being done in your Aikido class. Just a thought.

I gotta agree with this. Denny and I have trained together before. I primarily practice a "stand up" art (Goju). But I know, if I end up on the ground, I want to know what to do while I'm there. That's where Denny comes in. Cross-training doesn't mean you have to learn another complete system. Just be prepared to deal with a wider variety of things in an even wider number of ways.

Just my $.02

 

[Yari]

Hi Yari.
....

We use non-standard attack in particular to “tighten up” our skillset. If I see my opponent is weak at the edges of his circle that is where I launch my attack from – this is how we seal the leaks, if that makes any sense.

If I feel I am open to leg attacks or maybe grappler style takedowns, I work on my distance, my speed and my footwork. I wouldn’t go to BJJ or Gracie for that sole purpose. And I’d love to believe that all artists in all arts took that view. ......
Yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna

That's sounds like a solid approach.

But the catch in this is "how do you know were there is an attack possiblity, without praticing another style/view?". Because working with one style will only give you the possiblities that the people in that style can see.

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

I gotta agree with this. Denny and I have trained together before. I primarily practice a "stand up" art (Goju). But I know, if I end up on the ground, I want to know what to do while I'm there. That's where Denny comes in. Cross-training doesn't mean you have to learn another complete system. Just be prepared to deal with a wider variety of things in an even wider number of ways.

Just my $.02

I agree with this completely. Of all the folks in my aikido dojo there may be one or two that can take me to the ground. Both of them have a background in grappling and are a wealth of knowledge for what to expect while not on your feet. Were these two not there we'd not have their perspective on that area of defense. I like to think of aikido as a living art and in order for the art to grow it must continue to look at and respond to other than traditional attacks.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna - I respect your dedication to training, and your honest attempt to plug holes as you find them. Still even if you dont train in other arts there are some things you should take a look at to broaden your prospective on things you may have to deal with.
At the same time often the way to deal with certain things are there within an art but is not shown or passed on and the knowledge is lost until "rediscovered".
I dont practice aikido, I do practice more than 1 art but that is because they do different things, and dont really think of myself as a cross trainer since i am trying to learn both completely.

Hi there
That's a brilliant, clear perspective, thank you for it. I think that my art has everything I need for me to do what I'm trying to do in my life. But I'm not trying to be snobbish - I think YOUR art and EVERY art has everything necessary for us to live our lives.

I think you make an exceptional point when you say that knowledge is often lost in the case of the older arts and maybe not yet discovered in some of the newer arts - everything from Gracie to the likes of Kajukenbo and Parker and probably Aikido too since it's not exactly old and venerable either.

I may sound naive but I make no apology for that. In my mind it's better to dig a little deeper into our main art before we go off checking the grass on the other side of the fence. And I'm sorry but I do think X-training is just another manifestation of disposable MA and I hate to see it because I love MA in all forms.

Some people say TKD is nothing but kicks. Rubbish. Some say grapplers are powerless upright. Cr_p! Me? I'd say why go off looking for other, better, smarter, newer stuff? Stop and retrace some of your footsteps back into your own art. I'm all for trying new stuff but it's within the structures of my Aikido. I take the point that attacks can come from other sources, I mean, there's no high kicks in my Aikido whatsoever, but reality check for me, of course there's the chance that some wiseguy might try that on me showing off to his mates - London can be like that. Same goes for chokeholds, headbutts and whatever we dream up. Personally, I do not want to train to attack like this. But I certainly DO want to train my Aikido to allow me to handle such attacks if and when they happen.

My point is that X-training is the current "in" thing. I appreciate the benefits, certainly I do. But I think there are few arts - NONE imo - that can't handle what they're given from whatever source it's dished out. I think practitioners just need to think a little deeper and stop taking the easy option.

Anyway, stop me, I'm off on tangents. I really hope that makes some sense???

Yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna

 

[The Lorax]

I agree with Jenna, most arts have the ability to work in most any situation, you just need to train more. I'd be open to training with people from other arts, not to learn the art, but to find a way to counter it with aikido.

 

[Jenna]

That's sounds like a solid approach.

But the catch in this is "how do you know were there is an attack possiblity, without praticing another style/view?". Because working with one style will only give you the possiblities that the people in that style can see.

/Yari

Hi Yari, thanks for your encouraging comment

Yeah you're right, me or my training partners would never claim to know much if anything about the range of arts out there. But really, me, I'm not pedantic about exactly mimicking attacks from other arts. I know how to kick to head, trunk or leg, I know how to punch and put together combos, I know how to takedown. I know none of those to the extent that I could call myself anything like proficient in those various artforms but we use those as a means to an end - they're just the touchpaper to ignite our Aikido defences. That's the theory anyway

In my limited experience, most real attacks are big, drunken haymaker hooks that I'd see in London every Saturday night or mugger's chokeholds that both of my closest friends have had bad experiences of. So, I'm not overly inclined to be accurate in our little Aikido group when training the more flamboyant attacks that most of our great MAs do so well. When we're "sealing our leaks" and tightening up, we just need to have a level of randomness, or simulate SOME level of similarity to reality in our attacks. They aren't the key. Our defence using our art is the key.

Blimey, I can't believe I typed all that. Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.

Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna

 

[Yari]

......Blimey, I can't believe I typed all that. Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.

Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna

Yes, and your shinning through. It's lovely to see, even though I don't know who you are.

Gambatte!

/yari

 

[MartialIntent]

Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.

Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna

I've gotta agree with Yari - well said. I find myself agreeing with those sentiments pretty much entirely. More than a grain of truth imHo.

Respects!

 

[Jenna]

Yes, and your shinning through. It's lovely to see, even though I don't know who you are.Gambatte!/yari

Thanks Yari, that's such a nice thing to say! And I love the Gambatte sentiment. You're really kind!

I think it's difficult enough to find an art that we like. Some of us flit from one to the other before finding one that fits. Aikido fits me perfectly for what I'm trying to do - I'm not into competition and I'm not into big techniques but at the same time I have the utmost respect every last one of us in our martial arts endeavours, whatever shape and form they take.

And most of all Yari, I enjoy hearing people talk of their art with pride rather than slagging it off as being useless on the ground or worthless as a defensive art or whatever. I just don't like hearing that talk, I really don't. When I hear that sort of talk I just think the artist has not thought with due diligence about their art.

I'm worried about talking too much but I just want to say one last thing on X-training - and bear with me My old grandad had a pair of boots. He used to say, "They'll bury me in these boots," and when he passed on, yep, that's what happened. He must have had those boots since he started working forty-five years earlier, I'm not joking. When the soles wore out, he got them replaced by his mate Sid the cobbler. When the laces frayed, he made himself some more from black jute or marlin twine and of course he kept those boots army-clean every day with enough elbow grease to whitewash a fence and put sage leaves in them to keep em smelling sweet! Those boots never let him down.

My point? When OUR boots wear through we order up some new ones. When OUR laces fray, we buy more. When OUR boots get dirty we leave them dirty. Why did my grandad not buy new boots? Because the boots fitted him perfectly. He used to tell me it would take years to break in a pair of boots to that extent. That's how I feel about my Aikido. It'd be my wish that we hang back a bit from trying to be big and clever x-trainers and focus HARDER on what we really know in our art that fits us so well.

Anyway, I know, yet another of my aimless musings. All those words typed - my fingers are sore and my nails are all broken, ha! Where's the nearest manicurist??

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[green meanie]

Jenna I understand what you're saying, and know exactly where you're coming from, and for the most part I agree with you. I just think we have a different definition of what X-training is. Using your grandfathers boots analogy, I'd say your definition of X-training is trading in the boots instead of seeing how far your boots will take you. My definition of X-training is keep your boots for life (just like you're suggesting) but don't be afraid to walk on a variety of terrain while you're wearing them. Does that make sense?

Cause for me, X-training is like this. I'm a grappler. Always have been, always will be. I've added a few tools to the toolbox along the way but at my core I'm ALWAYS going to be a wrestler. When I X-train with Tae Kwon Do guys it isn't to learn their art; I'm not there to learn how to jump spin and kick; I'm their to see how my art holds up against it. Because, for me, if I REALLY believe in it I have to be willing to test it. And no one in the wrestling room is going to throw a kick well enough to prove it - I HAVE to go to where the kicking power is. Not to learn it, but to endure it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me, X-training isn't a lack of faith, it's the opposite. It's having so much faith in what I do that I'm willing to throw it up against anything because I know in my heart that it will hold up. I've taken it that far. Know what I mean?

I hope that makes sense... but even if it doesn't just keep doing what you're doing cause you're DEFINATELY on the right track. And who knows? If it doesn't make any sense on this side maybe it will when you get on the other.

:asian:

 

[Jenna]

Jenna I understand what you're saying, and know exactly where you're coming from, and for the most part I agree with you. I just think we have a different definition of what X-training is. Using your grandfathers boots analogy, I'd say your definition of X-training is trading in the boots instead of seeing how far your boots will take you. My definition of X-training is keep your boots for life (just like you're suggesting) but don't be afraid to walk on a variety of terrain while you're wearing them. Does that make sense?

Cause for me, X-training is like this. I'm a grappler. Always have been, always will be. I've added a few tools to the toolbox along the way but at my core I'm ALWAYS going to be a wrestler. When I X-train with Tae Kwon Do guys it isn't to learn their art; I'm not there to learn how to jump spin and kick; I'm their to see how my art holds up against it. Because, for me, if I REALLY believe in it I have to be willing to test it. And no one in the wrestling room is going to throw a kick well enough to prove it - I HAVE to go to where the kicking power is. Not to learn it, but to endure it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me, X-training isn't a lack of faith, it's the opposite. It's having so much faith in what I do that I'm willing to throw it up against anything because I know in my heart that it will hold up. I've taken it that far. Know what I mean?

I hope that makes sense... but even if it doesn't just keep doing what you're doing cause you're DEFINATELY on the right track. And who knows? If it doesn't make any sense on this side maybe it will when you get on the other.

:asian:

Hey green meanie - I'm sure you're not really a meanie, I'm sure you're a big pussycat that purrs beside your lady at the fire, ha! LOL.

Yep, I like your analogy. I'm sort of in an analogy mood at the minute so that really works for me and expands out the idea. I'd hate to think I'm being picked up wrong. I'm maybe not so good at explaining myself after I've had a few... espressos that is

I think we're saying the same thing but I'm adding too much sugar into my cake mix and making it way too sweet and bad for teeth. You're saying your X-training is training with taekwondoin, karateka, whatever and you're not interested in learning how to be at their level IN THEIR ART, but you simply want to acclimatise yourself to their attacks? I hope I've paraphrased you right. I'm exactly the same only we don't go out of our way to call up our friends across the street who do those arts, we're a miserly cheapskate sort of bunch and approximate "other" attacks ourselves. So we're sort of on the same page I think.

Thing is, for me, that's not X-training. Now I'd never claim to know anything about anything (yeah Jenna, I think that's obvious to everybody by now) but for me, X-training would imply I learn how to step-behind kick, how to do proper Wing Chun blocks, how to do takedowns and all the other fantastic techniques. That's what X-training is to me, it's like a supplementary set of skills that I'd bolt onto my Aikido and use it as needed. That's what I see X-training as and I shy away from that approach because I think my Aikido has everything in it I need. And I think your grappling is also a self-contained framework of techniques that doesn't need improved on by adding more strikes or stand-up techniques or weapons training. No, if there's a leak in your grappling style, it simply needs plugged from within by applying thought.

Am I coming over as being all confrontational? I hope not. I could do with some more coffee though. I'm on the wane at this time of night / morning...

It's really good to talk with you mister green meanie purrrring pussycat... Ah, I'm just joking but man, you grapplers scare me, so I gotta soften you up a bit and take the sharp edge off you in my head. Forgive me!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[green meanie]

Hey green meanie - I'm sure you're not really a meanie, I'm sure you're a big pussycat that purrs beside your lady at the fire, ha! LOL.

Yep, I like your analogy. I'm sort of in an analogy mood at the minute so that really works for me and expands out the idea. I'd hate to think I'm being picked up wrong. I'm maybe not so good at explaining myself after I've had a few... espressos that is

I think we're saying the same thing but I'm adding too much sugar into my cake mix and making it way too sweet and bad for teeth. You're saying your X-training is training with taekwondoin, karateka, whatever and you're not interested in learning how to be at their level IN THEIR ART, but you simply want to acclimatise yourself to their attacks? I hope I've paraphrased you right. I'm exactly the same only we don't go out of our way to call up our friends across the street who do those arts, we're a miserly cheapskate sort of bunch and approximate "other" attacks ourselves. So we're sort of on the same page I think.

Thing is, for me, that's not X-training. Now I'd never claim to know anything about anything (yeah Jenna, I think that's obvious to everybody by now) but for me, X-training would imply I learn how to step-behind kick, how to do proper Wing Chun blocks, how to do takedowns and all the other fantastic techniques. That's what X-training is to me, it's like a supplementary set of skills that I'd bolt onto my Aikido and use it as needed. That's what I see X-training as and I shy away from that approach because I think my Aikido has everything in it I need. And I think your grappling is also a self-contained framework of techniques that doesn't need improved on by adding more strikes or stand-up techniques or weapons training. No, if there's a leak in your grappling style, it simply needs plugged from within by applying thought.

Am I coming over as being all confrontational? I hope not. I could do with some more coffee though. I'm on the wane at this time of night / morning...

It's really good to talk with you mister green meanie purrrring pussycat... Ah, I'm just joking but man, you grapplers scare me, so I gotta soften you up a bit and take the sharp edge off you in my head. Forgive me!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

Hush your silly self, you're embarrassing me.

And I'll tell ya the story behind the name sometime but for now lets stay on topic. I've been giving this some thought and the more I think about it, your definition of X-training is probably the correct one. I hope not. If it is... well, that kinda sucks cause, in my not so humble opinion, that ain't no way to be doing this. But, I think right now the important thing is we seem to all be in agreement that a person needs to invest some REAL time into their art before looking for another art to solve their problems. Take the time to learn your art and see if the answers are there before looking somewhere else and cobbling some half-assed martial mess together. I really believe the answers are there in EVERY art if a person takes the time to look for them.

Oh! And Jenna... you're forgiven.

 

[The Lorax]

I agree with jenna's definition of cross training, but it sounds to me like you're doing similar things and calling them different names.

 

[green meanie]

I agree with jenna's definition of cross training, but it sounds to me like you're doing similar things and calling them different names.

I think you're right.

 

[theletch1]

Sure, the answers may be in my art...but what if I don't know that there is a question to be asked? Sampling other arts simply gives me the opportunity to look at SD from a different perspective and may raise questions that can be answered with aikido that I'd never have thought of had I not looked at situation A from the view of art B. I understand loyalty to the art but I don't understand putting on a pair of blinders because I'm afraid of seeming to be doubting aikido.

 

[Jenna]

Sure, the answers may be in my art...but what if I don't know that there is a question to be asked? Sampling other arts simply gives me the opportunity to look at SD from a different perspective and may raise questions that can be answered with aikido that I'd never have thought of had I not looked at situation A from the view of art B. I understand loyalty to the art but I don't understand putting on a pair of blinders because I'm afraid of seeming to be doubting aikido.

Hey Jeff

You're exactly right, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sampling other arts any more than there's anything wrong with sampling a Bud if you're usually a Miller person. Everyone likes new stuff. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else but personally, that's really not what I mean. What saddens me Jeff is when people who have a base in an art insist on doing the hop, skip and jump around other arts because they're looking to seal up leaks in their base art. An art that they've probably put a lot of time and effort into.

Again, I'm solsly referring to an art with which the practitioner is comfortable. An art that's a perfect fit. Naturally if the art is no good for the practitioner then an alternative MUST be found.

But I think doing the MA hop-skip and jump is the modern way Jeff. I think we've gotten too complacent in disposability. And there's no need for it. I see you're an NGA man Jeff - you should know better than most that there's no need to go window shopping or looking for parts for tune-ups because your art has a lot more crammed under the bonnet.. sorry hood, than most.

If you're looking out of interest in other arts, I applaud your search to broaden your horizons. Personally, if I thought I was round the corner talking blocks with the Hung Gar sifu, I'd be hearing alarm bells ringing that it was time to start pushing my own Aikido boundaries out a bit more.

Jeff, I think the arts are boundless. I think any art can be anything to any person. If that's naive I don't care. I believe it to be true.

Hey Jeff, is your ID theletch as in "the letch"?? You're not a letch are you really?? Sorry to be nosey. Tell me to keep my snout outta your business and I'll go take a swim in the canal

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[theletch1]

Jenna, "Letch" is the first half of my last name. The full last name is a bit tough for folks to pronounce so I picked up the nickname "Letch" when I served my time in the USMC. As for me actually BEING a lecher, well, I'll never tell.:uhyeah:
I am, indeed, an NGA man. I love the art. I don't see myself leaving and beginning the study of any other art in this life time. As for cross training, my definition of it is a bit more along the lines of sampling other arts from the aikido view...Not seeing SD from the other arts view. If you see cross training as studying one art for a while then swapping to another art because you're not a master inside a week then, yeah, crosstraining isn't a good idea. We've had several of these "Masters" come through the door of our dojo and none of them stay for long. The trouble there is that they never give themselves time to build a good base in one art before looking at the same situations through the prizm of another art and simply wind up confusing themselves. These are the same folks that achieve a yellow belt in six different arts then decide to become Shihan of their own, new and "super effective" art.
I think we have a responsibility to not only ourselves, but to our art to sample what else is out there. I'm not saying go sign up at another school to find out. I AM saying invite others to your dojo, visit and watch at other dojos and encourage those within your dojo to share what they've learned elsewhere to give a much broader view of how others may attack or defend. I don't think this shows a lack of faith in my art at all. To the contrary I believe it shows great confidence in my art to stack it against all other perspectives. Aikido is not the only way but it's the right way for me.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, "Letch" is the first half of my last name. The full last name is a bit tough for folks to pronounce so I picked up the nickname "Letch" when I served my time in the USMC. As for me actually BEING a lecher, well, I'll never tell.:uhyeah:
I am, indeed, an NGA man. I love the art. I don't see myself leaving and beginning the study of any other art in this life time. As for cross training, my definition of it is a bit more along the lines of sampling other arts from the aikido view...Not seeing SD from the other arts view. If you see cross training as studying one art for a while then swapping to another art because you're not a master inside a week then, yeah, crosstraining isn't a good idea. We've had several of these "Masters" come through the door of our dojo and none of them stay for long. The trouble there is that they never give themselves time to build a good base in one art before looking at the same situations through the prizm of another art and simply wind up confusing themselves. These are the same folks that achieve a yellow belt in six different arts then decide to become Shihan of their own, new and "super effective" art.
I think we have a responsibility to not only ourselves, but to our art to sample what else is out there. I'm not saying go sign up at another school to find out. I AM saying invite others to your dojo, visit and watch at other dojos and encourage those within your dojo to share what they've learned elsewhere to give a much broader view of how others may attack or defend. I don't think this shows a lack of faith in my art at all. To the contrary I believe it shows great confidence in my art to stack it against all other perspectives. Aikido is not the only way but it's the right way for me.

Hey Jeff

Aha, thank you for explaining your ID!! Just a nickname phew! That's by far the better explanation NGA and a marine boy too? That's some skillset you have going on. I had a session or two of NGA a long time back and I know you boys play it rough and I like that. Personally I'm way too frail and easily broken to be mixing it up with the NGA rowdies But I think it's great that Aikido is complex enough and tough enough to stand up being worked into so many moulds. A great art and I love it. Though as you can see Jeff, I love 'em all!! I think they're all great and you can hiss at me like a big rattlesnake if that's naive, I don't mind. This is why I don't think trying to cross-pollenate Aikido with other stuff is the best way to get a great bloom. Uh-oh, I'm off into a horticultural simile and I know nothing about flowers. Oh well, I think the better plan is to self-pollenate - to take the introspective view of the art before trying to mutate into something newer. Ha, I like that.

Your points about the yellow belt shihans is very well observed and very funny too - thanks for the giggle!! And I like your view on how you do your Aikido. You are very wise. I hope - and I'm pretty sure - you live by your words!

Thank you.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[theletch1]

Jenna. Yes, Letch by name, not by nature. (I have to write that in case my fiance reads this post:uhyeah: ). The skillset from my Marine Corps days was really all about survival with out regard to what happens to the other guy. That's old Corps values for ya. My understanding of the new Corps is a little different outlook on how the guy shooting at you must be dealt with. I'm glad I had a much simpler set of rules to deal with. The idea of situational awareness, though is one that I brought home with me from the Corps. I did get the chance to work with some British Royal Marines during a training mission and loved every minute of it. Those guys are seriously hard corps!

Yes, NGA does play rough. Martial Intent pointed out that we've lost alot of what makes aikido aikido by not including as much of the spiritual in our art as the more traditional styles. I agree with her. I'd even argue the point for her in a discussion with members of my own dojo. We are much more akin to aiki-jujitsu I think. Doesn't bother me, really. I've seen a great deal of internal growth during my studies and had a lot of what I already believed in my core re-affirmed by my training in aikido. I don't think our lack of shinto influence makes the art any less effective or makes us any more ruthless than any other aikido-ka but it does seem to give a slightly different "flavor" to the art. Any time you get to the states contact me here and I'd love to have you join us in a training session at our dojo as my honored guest.

p.s. You can count the number of moulds that aikido will fit into when you can count the number of aikido-ka in the world.:asian:

 

[Jenna]

Jenna. Yes, Letch by name, not by nature. (I have to write that in case my fiance reads this post:uhyeah: ). The skillset from my Marine Corps days was really all about survival with out regard to what happens to the other guy. That's old Corps values for ya. My understanding of the new Corps is a little different outlook on how the guy shooting at you must be dealt with. I'm glad I had a much simpler set of rules to deal with. The idea of situational awareness, though is one that I brought home with me from the Corps. I did get the chance to work with some British Royal Marines during a training mission and loved every minute of it. Those guys are seriously hard corps!

Hey Jeff
Thanks for following up with this! I don't know if I'm supposed to ask because it maybe isn't on topic or whatever but I don't care cause I want to know - how do you reconcile the Marines survival training to the Aikido defence training? Where one is concerned with the preservation of the yourself and your corps but not the foe whereas the other is concerned for both? Are the two at odds?

And I hope you are not gonna tell me you dropped your USMC training into the recesses of your memory because that would be losing something pretty awesome, no?

Just interested off topic or not - shoot me for it if you want I don't care I'm bulletproof. And there's no one else here anyway, ha!

And thank you for the invite! I'd love to take that up but I'd get my a$$ kicked, honoured guest or not, ha! Just jokin wid ya

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna