Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?

[tempus]

Or you could say how much better you would be with muscles

Also, remember with weight training you can train for Bulk, Endurance or Strength.

• You can use weights and do a circuit to gain endurance.
• You can use medium reps and isolate body parts for bulk - bodybuilder
• You can use low reps and high weight for strength.

Currently I am testing for my brown belt. In NGA I will need to defend agaisnt about 125 attacks (counting some redo's) one right after the other. I usually train for strength, but have lowered the weight and raised reps in squats and deadlifts. My goal is to do exercises that will work my entire body. In essence a motion that hits the entire body to tie it all together so I can last those 125 attacks. I know in a perfect world if I blended properly I should not get out of breath, but I know I will make mistakes and will need that endurance. I will also be doing sled drags and farm walks.

I also work on balance and coordination by stanidng on one leg on a bosu ball and throw a weighted ball against a trampoline with one hand.

What I am getting at is weight training does not necessarily mean muscle magazine steroid bulk. I only weigh in at 202 lbs and I think I flow pretty good. Just have to make sure to balance the weight training flexibility and cardio.

On another note multi-functional training would be a good way to train for Aikido. With all the rolls, falls and movements we hit a lot of the plains of motion in our techniques. If anyone is interested look into a Bosu or exercise ball routines. Plus, how often are you asked to deadlift a car compared to bend down and pick up your keys while balancing a bag of groceries in your hand.

-Tempus

 

[theletch1]

Tempus, good luck on your I-kyu test. I've had the honor of being an uke in several brown belt test lines and can assure you that the work will pay off (especially any cardio and breathing exercises you're doing).
I started lifting to help rehab a broken back and Erica joined in to keep me motivated. I've got the back very nearly back where it was before the injury and the rest of me looks and feels a lot better than it ever did. My aikido has improved a great deal as, I think, a direct result of the gym time because A) I am more fit in both stamina and general strength B) I've gone from downright bony to having enough lean muscle that I don't feel that I'm gonna shatter on impact.
What I've seen from most of the posts here is that weight training has definite benefits for the individual. I think what Jenna is getting at is the mindset of some folks that hit the gym with the idea that if they "bulk" up they'll be able to do aikido better because they'll be stronger. That is completely against the idea of aikido. The amount of muscle or strength shouldn't matter. It's the efficacy of the technique that should matter.

 

[Jenna]

What I've seen from most of the posts here is that weight training has definite benefits for the individual. I think what Jenna is getting at is the mindset of some folks that hit the gym with the idea that if they "bulk" up they'll be able to do aikido better because they'll be stronger. That is completely against the idea of aikido. The amount of muscle or strength shouldn't matter. It's the efficacy of the technique that should matter.

Hey Jeff Yes you said it best of all I am too prosaic to make sense most times!! And I would still say and I hope you would back me up a little but it is not only that muscle should not matter but more often that not being overly bulked ruins the touch sensitivity to the opponent.. Thank you as ever for your contribution

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Jeff Yes you said it best of all I am too prosaic to make sense most times!! And I would still say and I hope you would back me up a little but it is not only that muscle should not matter but more often that not being overly bulked ruins the touch sensitivity to the opponent.. Thank you as ever for your contribution

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

One of the better Tai Chi people I knew was actually quite muscular. I have no idea if he worked out with weights or it was genetic, but he was very good at finding someone’s center and being soft when necessary. He also use to train with an Aikijitsu teacher who could not defeat him in sparing. Basically he was too soft and to flexible to gain any advantage over and he followed way to well to be able to use his strength against him.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If you think the average person is going to get a huge bulked up appearance from regular weight training I think you are mistaken. Those bodybuilding folks are either extremely disciplined + specialized in their dieting and exercise or are chemically assisted.

 

[Aikikitty]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Interesting question/topic. I was recently thinking about this same thing a couple of months ago. One side--work out and get more fit. Other side--not supposed to use upper body strength/muscle your way through techniques, and getting stronger might make doing that more difficult.

I've always been small and yet for some dumb reason, would keep trying to muscle my way through techniques (trying to turn/lift with biceps and shoulders not with hips). I've never been overweight, but I was never in good physical shape or very strong either and I'd be the first person to wear out in class---and I'm the youngest at 24! My mom is 55 and she has more stamina than I do!!!

Anyway, since our classes had to be cut back from 3 times a week to only once a week some months back, my mom and I wanted to do some other exercise. We joined Curves (the women only gym) in May and go 3 times a week. Since then there has been a HUGE difference! My mom is losing weight and getting more fit. I'm toning and getting my little muscles much stronger. Not big or bulky, but stronger. That's a huge difference for me in class as I'm not wearing out or near as tired at the end of class like I was before. I still sometimes try to stupidly muscle through a technique, but I used to do that before anyway. So for me, the gym-machine workouts have been very benefical to my Aikido.

Robyn :asian:

 

[pstarr]

And let's not forget that O'sensei used to practice with a "log" instead of a bokken when he lived in Hokkaido. He was also known to practice regularly with a suburito.

A friend of mine (who's even older than I am!) met O'sensei back in the day and said that he really didn't have wrists...his forearms were the same thickness all the way down... and his grip was strong enough to crush bone without using aiki technique (no doubt the result of training with heavy wooden swords and such).

 

[Xue Sheng]

And let's not forget that O'sensei used to practice with a "log" instead of a bokken when he lived in Hokkaido. He was also known to practice regularly with a suburito.

A friend of mine (who's even older than I am!) met O'sensei back in the day and said that he really didn't have wrists...his forearms were the same thickness all the way down... and his grip was strong enough to crush bone without using aiki technique (no doubt the result of training with heavy wooden swords and such).

I did not know this, thanks

And it is a very good point.

 

[Jenna]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Interesting question/topic. I was recently thinking about this same thing a couple of months ago. One side--work out and get more fit. Other side--not supposed to use upper body strength/muscle your way through techniques, and getting stronger might make doing that more difficult.

I've always been small and yet for some dumb reason, would keep trying to muscle my way through techniques (trying to turn/lift with biceps and shoulders not with hips). I've never been overweight, but I was never in good physical shape or very strong either and I'd be the first person to wear out in class---and I'm the youngest at 24! My mom is 55 and she has more stamina than I do!!!

Anyway, since our classes had to be cut back from 3 times a week to only once a week some months back, my mom and I wanted to do some other exercise. We joined Curves (the women only gym) in May and go 3 times a week. Since then there has been a HUGE difference! My mom is losing weight and getting more fit. I'm toning and getting my little muscles much stronger. Not big or bulky, but stronger. That's a huge difference for me in class as I'm not wearing out or near as tired at the end of class like I was before. I still sometimes try to stupidly muscle through a technique, but I used to do that before anyway. So for me, the gym-machine workouts have been very benefical to my Aikido.

Robyn :asian:

Hey Robyn thank you for this post it is nice to get an opinion from another Aikidoka and you are correct bout not muscling your way through techniques as this is not the Aikido way at all and in fact NECESSITATES muscle because no matter how big and clever and muscular a fighter might be.. there is always someone bigger and cleverer and more muscular than they are.. and yes in our Aikido we use a little more by way of subtlety which suits the likes of you and I who are not Vin Diesel but are a little on the petite side I will say but through the correct application of our technique as you will know.. there is little uke can do to resist..

And my point Robyn is that as we progress through our Aikido study we gain that sensitivity to movement by direct contact with either the opponents limbs body or weapon where it is prudent to be in contact and with unnecessary extra muscle there is an evident suppression of this sensitivity arising imo via a simple physiology which I will not detail but which lessens the perception to the opponents motion... again this is my opinion only but I tested and proven to myself and which is all the convincing I require and I am not bothered whether it is in a scientific journal!

And you and I are both 24 which is trivial but a nice little coincidence for me.. ahh but I am easily amused as you can tell, ha!

Good luck with your training and thank you again for your observations my friend!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Adept]

And you will say well... -I- train weights and I am an Aikidoka and I am still very fit for my art and a great allround Aikidoka... And all I would say is ahh yes... but imagine how much BETTER you would be without the unnecessary slow-twitch muscle. Try it... I guarantee and promise that losing unnecessary bulk and returning to your original (maybe not fashionable in 2006) figure will bolster your Aikido.

I respectfully disagree. Disregarding the end-of-the-scale extremes like Mr Universe contestants, a more muscled person benefits over an otherwsie equal, but less muscled opponent in terms of weight, strength and speed.

Now, I can hear the cries of 'technique over strength!' already. And it's true, good technique will serve you better than brute strength. But what about when two opponents are equally, or similarly matched in skill? Then the stronger one wins. Relying on skill alone is as bad, IMO, as relying on strength alone. Now, I'm not going to say that you should all abandon your training and get to the gym, but I will say that (1) weights training is as effective at burning kilojoules as most cardio workouts, and has the added benefit of increasing muscle mass and (2) there is no loss in speed or flexibility. Obviously a body builder will never the marathon runner make, but we aren't talking about running marathons here.

To summarise, you won't get slower or less flexible from bulking up, and it shouldn't hurt your Aikido in any way, shape or form. You will, however, benefit from greater strength and speed, as well as weight and natural 'armour' and short burst endurance, without significantly harming your long term endurance.

 

[Jenna]

I respectfully disagree. Disregarding the end-of-the-scale extremes like Mr Universe contestants, a more muscled person benefits over an otherwsie equal, but less muscled opponent in terms of weight, strength and speed.

Now, I can hear the cries of 'technique over strength!' already. And it's true, good technique will serve you better than brute strength. But what about when two opponents are equally, or similarly matched in skill? Then the stronger one wins. Relying on skill alone is as bad, IMO, as relying on strength alone. Now, I'm not going to say that you should all abandon your training and get to the gym, but I will say that (1) weights training is as effective at burning kilojoules as most cardio workouts, and has the added benefit of increasing muscle mass and (2) there is no loss in speed or flexibility. Obviously a body builder will never the marathon runner make, but we aren't talking about running marathons here.

To summarise, you won't get slower or less flexible from bulking up, and it shouldn't hurt your Aikido in any way, shape or form. You will, however, benefit from greater strength and speed, as well as weight and natural 'armour' and short burst endurance, without significantly harming your long term endurance.

Hey there mister Adept and this is ok absolutely for you to respectfully disagree and for me to do likewise I trust! I will say having had along with my Aikido a reasonable exposure to other primarily strike-based arts that for sure if you want to hit hard or if you want to throw hard and tackle hard then extra muscle is certainly relevant and necessary..

however I am very SPECIFICALLY referring to Aikido and which is why I put the thread in the Aikido place here and I maintain and that extra muscle above and beyond that which we develop NATURALLY through our training exactly with our techniques is not only extraneous but detrimental due to the nature of the depletion of contact sensitivity that any half-decent Aikidoka must have to avoid getting caught out.

I do not block a hard punch with a hard inner or outer forearm nor do I deflect a side kick with a Bong Sau because this is not a part of my art but what I do instead if I am in direct contact with my opponent is to sense where he is moving and move WITH HIM in order that I might unbalance him allowing me entry for whichever tech and if I cannot sense subtly where he is moving BEFORE he has moved then I am having to play catch up with him and my advantage is lost..

and I maintain and having experienced this many times previously with overdeveloped (imNsvho) practitioners that any extraneous muscle mass is a plain physiological disadvantage to their touch and movement sensitivity. And I am happy to play nage and demonstrate this to anyone who wishes... and I am certainly not bulked in any way and have made great efforts to maintain my natural muscle mass as being exactly appropriate for me and what I need to do... and do not get me wrong.. if you need the extra for your art then that has a different application and what I am talking of is not relevant and is an entirely separate issue but I am particularly referring to Aikido.. and if I am the only Aikidoka to practice this notion then I guess that puts me in a majority of one and which I am happy to be with the knowledge of the results I have for myself... I am not making a point to prove anything but simply attempting to present my circumstantial findings for any Aikidoka who may be interested in furthering their knowledge and maybe stepping away from the norm and which I know is not easy for most practitioners but..

As an MMA BB I am not certain what that means is your exposure to Aikido .. apologies I am unfamiliar with terminologies.. and which I hope you will forgive me for.. but I am certain if you have practiced Aikido for any length of time at all then you will surely appreciate what I am referring to.. and I hope that makes a little sense to you... Thank you for posting up your opinion absolutely!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

If you think the average person is going to get a huge bulked up appearance from regular weight training I think you are mistaken. Those bodybuilding folks are either extremely disciplined + specialized in their dieting and exercise or are chemically assisted.

I have said before but I just love that Collateral scene you got going on there in yor signature... it is mesmerising over and over and over...

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[MrFunnieman]

Jenna,

I know that the reason a person studies a martial art is as unique as that individual. I have not thoroughly studied Aikido, but I have studied other Japanese arts and I am familiar with the philosophy behind Aikido. In fact, when I take up another art it will be Aikido. I completely understand the need for sensitivity, but I don't think muscle mass is inversely connected to sensitivity. Sensitivity, IMHO, is directly connected to a person's mental awareness. Secondly, should a person's intention of studying Aikido be self-defense, I think concentrating ONLY on technique would be detrimental. I don't know if you have been in a fight before, but it's not as pretty as randori or demos in the dojo. EVERY advantage counts, including strength and stamina. Real life conflict is messy and I think MANY martial arts sell themselves as self-defense and they are NOT training their students properly. Theoretically all martial arts should work in self-defense. Theory and practice are two different things. I want to reiterate that I am speaking purely from the view of SELF-DEFENSE. If you are studying Aikido for inner harmony or for other reasons, by all means- don't weightlift- you won't need it in the dojo-when the attack and defense are perfectly coreographed. Your uke will more often than not move effortlessly for you. Thug with a weapon will not be nice or move predictably. Sorry to be so raw.

Eric

 

[Makalakumu]

If you are in a situation where your art can't help you, then strength and athleticism will really help. Weight training and conditioning are things that are so beneficial in so many things. It doesn't always have to be about MA.

 

[citrus_tea]

Not rubbish, just irrelavent. Strength should not be a factor in aikido technique.

 

[Adept]

Not rubbish, just irrelavent. Strength should not be a factor in aikido technique.

When those other factors are equal, then strength will be the deciding factor.

 

[Adept]

extra muscle above and beyond that which we develop NATURALLY through our training exactly with our techniques is not only extraneous but detrimental due to the nature of the depletion of contact sensitivity that any half-decent Aikidoka must have to avoid getting caught out.

Extra muscle mass will not impact contact sensitivity.

I do not block a hard punch with a hard inner or outer forearm nor do I deflect a side kick with a Bong Sau because this is not a part of my art but what I do instead if I am in direct contact with my opponent is to sense where he is moving and move WITH HIM in order that I might unbalance him allowing me entry for whichever tech and if I cannot sense subtly where he is moving BEFORE he has moved then I am having to play catch up with him and my advantage is lost..

That extra muscle mass will not make it any harder to detect his movements. It will make it easier to follow him, and a stronger person is more difficult to unbalance than a weaker one.

and I maintain and having experienced this many times previously with overdeveloped (imNsvho) practitioners that any extraneous muscle mass is a plain physiological disadvantage to their touch and movement sensitivity.

It's quite simply not the case. Extra muscle mass does not in any way impact any part of the body which is involved in touch and movement sensitivity.

if you need the extra for your art then that has a different application and what I am talking of is not relevant and is an entirely separate issue but I am particularly referring to Aikido.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying anyone needs to be a meathead. All I'm saying is that there is no reason for extra muscle mass to be detrimental. There is no physiological reason why it should make it harder to sense movement or pressure. It doesn't affect your nervous system in any way, so your sense of touch would be unimpaired, which in turn means your ability to 'feel' the movement of an opponent would be unchanged. But your reaction time would be increased.

As an MMA BB I am not certain what that means is your exposure to Aikido

Limited, I'm afraid. I don't normally cruise the Aikido forums, I just saw the thread title from the index page and thought I'd take a look.

apologies I am unfamiliar with terminologies

It means I have a black belt in ITF TKD and have significant influences from time spent training in, and with people from, jujitsu, karate and boxing.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna,

I know that the reason a person studies a martial art is as unique as that individual. I have not thoroughly studied Aikido, but I have studied other Japanese arts and I am familiar with the philosophy behind Aikido. In fact, when I take up another art it will be Aikido. I completely understand the need for sensitivity, but I don't think muscle mass is inversely connected to sensitivity. Sensitivity, IMHO, is directly connected to a person's mental awareness. Secondly, should a person's intention of studying Aikido be self-defense, I think concentrating ONLY on technique would be detrimental. I don't know if you have been in a fight before, but it's not as pretty as randori or demos in the dojo. EVERY advantage counts, including strength and stamina. Real life conflict is messy and I think MANY martial arts sell themselves as self-defense and they are NOT training their students properly. Theoretically all martial arts should work in self-defense. Theory and practice are two different things. I want to reiterate that I am speaking purely from the view of SELF-DEFENSE. If you are studying Aikido for inner harmony or for other reasons, by all means- don't weightlift- you won't need it in the dojo-when the attack and defense are perfectly coreographed. Your uke will more often than not move effortlessly for you. Thug with a weapon will not be nice or move predictably. Sorry to be so raw.

Eric

Hey Eric I will take you up on a few things if this will not upset you overly my friend.. and you say that sensitivity iYho is directly connected to "mental awareness" but I do not know how you classify this mental awareness... in MY Aikido which you rightly say is as unique as yours is to you.. but in MY Aikido my mental awareness of my opponent is only discerned through purely PHYSICAL receptors... I am not gifted in ESP nor can I read palms.. what I CAN do is use my eyes and more specifically use my direct contact with my opponent as a gauge for which way he is inclined to move.. I have no "mental" awareness in this situation other than what is passed to me through these physical channels... however I am always open to more esoteric methods of sensitivity towards an opponent and will talk to you all day on implanting subliminal "fall-down" commands if you wish and which is also something I may be interested in.. but I maintain that the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling by way of small movements.. the almost imperceptable movements he will make as he goes to take me one way or the other and if I cannot feel these until AFTER he has actually impelled himself and moved then the game (the tech I was planning) is over for me.. simple physiology dictates that the greater muscle mass the less the sensitivity which is important to ME in MY Aikido though may not be to others in theirs or their various arts.. but to put it simply.. muscles have inbuilt receptors responsible for discerning changes in their own length.. these receptors tell the brain ooh:stimulus and the brain shouts down oi! contract! but my point is that any delay in perception decoding or transmission anywhere on these neural pathways (of which excessive bulk over "normal" is but one) will give rise to a reduction in optimal response or what we say is NORMAL muscle tone... again I only offer this as an opinion and if it suits you to run off with a fervent need to disprove it well this is ok I am not offended

and my friend I do not know how to answer your probings around my own "fights" and so I will just say two things.. books have many pages between their covers.. and also that some days it is not our choice whether we are nage or uke..

but to be honest.. further proof of effectiveness of my aimless meanderings is something I am not overly concerned for.. I merely present this as a suggestion for anyone to try out.. stop training to increase poundage! .. and to which ears may be closed and eyes shut but my friend this is the way of things and we are not always willing to step outside our boxes of conformity and fair enough.. I have no desire to lift myself on any soapbox nor SHOUT at anyone through a loud hailer and if these ideas are not relevant to you in your situation then of course I understand this and I am certain you are more than capable and happy in your own framework of training and as such you must disregard what I am saying.. and least we both agree yes.. each of us works their art in their own way as many and different as snowflakes under a 100x lens...

Good luck to you indeed and thank you for your insights.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

There is no physiological reason why it should make it harder to sense movement or pressure. It doesn't affect your nervous system in any way, so your sense of touch would be unimpaired, which in turn means your ability to 'feel' the movement of an opponent would be unchanged. But your reaction time would be increased.

Hey Adept my friend I would have to say exactly the opposite to this and hope you will forgive me that we cannot agree... as I say I am not looking to PERSUADE anyone of anything but am simply offering up a suggestion. And as I said in the last post.. if this is not relevant to your particular training intentions within your martial art then your instincts will tell you correctly to disregard it

good luck
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Blotan Hunka]

So are naturally muscular people less capable Akidoka than skinny ones. What about fat people?