Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?

[Jenna]

So are naturally muscular people less capable Akidoka than skinny ones. What about fat people?

I am not certain if you are addressing me directly .. but I will be presumptuous and respond anyway... and yes you are right to state this obvious point.. larger people have plainly greater muscle mass than smaller people and the point is that their point of NATURAL equilibrium is naturally at a higher level of muscular mass than the smaller person.. and similarly there are those folk who have a NATURAL propensity for a higher baseline body fat percentages than others and I will say in the situation where someone is in their natural bodily equilibrium then they will be set exactly for training their optimum touch sensitivity IN AIKIDO.

however once this person begins to deviate either way.. increasing muscular mass or laying down greater fat then naturally this takes them away from their equilibrium which diminishes the ability to subtly sense and respond..

and naturally.. claiming no expertise in anything soever.. I am not advocating any system of training for you or for anyone else so please do not put yourself in the position to be offended.. I am simply offering a suggestion which has arisen through MY OWN AIKIDO practice and which other AIKIDOKA may be open to trying for themselves.. I have no axe to grind with anyone who trains weights I am merely giving an idea but if my idea is offensive to you or anyone else then absolutely you MUST disregard it

and yes.. thank you again for that Collateral scene.. though I still think the best scene by far was Felix talking Pedro Negro...ooooh

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[MrFunnieman]

Hey Eric I will take you up on a few things if this will not upset you overly my friend

Jenna, I don't take much personally...especially on forums. I am always ready for a good debate and am glad that your thread has brought some life to the Aikido forum. After reading your post I realized that I capitalized several words with the intention of emphasizing my points in my argument. I dawned on me that in the electronic world this is interpretted as shouting. I am sorry-- that was not my intention.

.. but in MY Aikido my mental awareness of my opponent is only discerned through purely PHYSICAL receptors... I am not gifted in ESP nor can I read palms.. what I CAN do is use my eyes and more specifically use my direct contact with my opponent as a gauge for which way he is inclined to move.. I have no "mental" awareness in this situation other than what is passed to me through these physical channels...

Mental awareness may have not been a good descriptor. As we train, one hopes that muscle memory and nervous system routes become so efficient that things take place automatically. A conscious awareness is not really necessary. In the early stages of training, in my experience, if you are not looking for those physical cues, then you are not consciously or "mentally aware" of the cues. I also think that people that are more focused on the technique and less focused on the uke's position and balance are not aware of these cues.

Believe me, my coordination and perception of my physical surroundings have improved greatly with my martial art training. I have gone from an awkward teen to a competant martial artist (over many years). I would suggest that familiarity with techniques and hours logged in the dojo have more impact on sensitivity than muscle mass. I am not a doctor or biologist, so please accept my statement for what it's worth.

Additionally, I don't think we are really arguing. I accept your opinion, but it defies my experience or understanding. I too am not trying to sell unnaturally bulky muscles.

but I maintain that the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling by way of small movements.. the almost imperceptable movements he will make as he goes to take me one way or the other and if I cannot feel these until AFTER he has actually impelled himself and moved then the game (the tech I was planning) is over for me..

This statement almost contradicts your earlier statements you made about mental awareness and having to experience the tactile stimulation to be able to respond appropriately. I would have to ask you to validate your statement of "the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling" with some medical research. Does muscle mass really impede the chemical reactions in the nervous system? Lest you are a doctor or student of human physiology, I believe you are making statements that are as informed as my own. Mine are based on a perceptual psychology class I took about seven years ago in college and my rudimentary understanding of human physiology.

again I only offer this as an opinion and if it suits you to run off with a fervent need to disprove it well this is ok I am not offended
and my friend I do not know how to answer your probings around my own "fights" and so I will just say two things.. books have many pages between their covers.. and also that some days it is not our choice whether we are nage or uke..

I will not be running off to fervently disprove your claims. I think there is more to this book than meets the eye. I would rather have an opportunity to see more of it's pages before I pursue this subject any further. :wink1:

I have no desire to lift myself on any soapbox nor SHOUT at anyone through a loud hailer and if these ideas are not relevant to you in your situation then of course I understand this and I am certain you are more than capable and happy in your own framework of training and as such you must disregard what I am saying.. and least we both agree yes.. each of us works their art in their own way as many and different as snowflakes under a 100x lens...

Agreed

Eric

 

[Jenna]

Lest you are a doctor or student of human physiology, I believe you are making statements that are as informed as my own.

Then my friend we are either equally as enlightened as the other or equally as clumsily groping for the light switch..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Robert Lee]

I would agree and disagree. When you work weights into you training you need to increase your training so the newer muscle mass and body tone can adapt to what you are doing. Or the training does retard you motion to a degree. bE it any art. Weights can be a benfit But you have to keep your self trained. Mind and body work together. Now heavy arms feel less until better trained. To understand motion on senctivety You want to feel the slightest movement. The softer touch. Buyt at times you need to appliy great pressure Because in uncontroled movement You are working resistive motion. Press pauce and yeild at times stops and allows the yeilded motion. So that it can work. Just useing weight training to tone and condition Is better then now training at all. But weights is not a must pushups pullups and other methods can help Aikido really depends on skill level to get it working. Lower the skill the much less it will help. Strengh can stop alot of joint manipluations. It can stop alot of off balance. When the other person knows how to utilize there strengh. The elimate of surprise in the motion gives Aikido the better chance. No way will the average Aikido person get there art working before they take a hit in real life. Most instructors will tell you this But they will tell you also when you get it working it can upset the other persons motions. So the better body condition you do have the better your chances are. What i mean is weights can hamper and they work as long as you adjust your training to off set the balance.

 

[Adept]

I would have to ask you to validate your statement of "the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling" with some medical research. Does muscle mass really impede the chemical reactions in the nervous system?

This is also a point I would like to clarify.

Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are not a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.

The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.

 

[Hand Sword]

I would agree. Look at wrestlers for instance (yeah, the Pro wrestlers too). They are huge people! Athletic, with speed, power and great agility. Their whole game could be looked at as coming down to sensitivity. If not there would be serious injury to the opponent, or themselves. No problems with their size and sensitivity.

 

[Carol]

This is also a point I would like to clarify.

Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are not a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.

The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.

Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.

It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving. What is the uke's body impacting against? The Aikidoka's muscles? Yep. And under that? The bone. So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke.

It follows logical that any change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.

The reason why shin kicks are so painful - there is very little muscle between the shin and the outer skin.

Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone. When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.

It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.

It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue...and for an art such as Aikido, this could make for a difference in how a technique is executed, esp. for someone at the dan ranks in the art that has the training and expertise to clue in to a lot of subtleties.


But since we Kenpokas are about as subtle as a handsword to the ribs, its back to the weight room for me :rofl:

 

[Jenna]

This is also a point I would like to clarify.

Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are not a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.

The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.

Hey mister Adept I think it was maybe evident from the tone in your posts that you are a "muscular guy" and I promise my friend.. I am neither desirous nor concerned to try to direct your training in any way contrary.. I am NOT decrying weight training for hard-hitting arts for which muscle mass is relevant and NECESSARY. I have been at pains to point this out that I am just giving an idea from my own personal experience though I am naive to miss that the mention of WEIGHT TRAINING would be the red rag even here in the Aikido area and I spose I am not so confused at your defensiveness as though I were making some tirade on your own training methodology.. I am NOT though.. trust me!... but what the majority do in their gyms is for them.. because I do not agree I am happy to be a "pec deck heretic", ha! I will get a t shirt made up that way.. pffft.. as I have said if this idea is repugnant to you then surely we have no argument.. you have lodged your 2c in the account and you can withdraw it at any time my friend..

but I will make one point which you can take or leave depending upon your openness.. You say to me "As you assert yourself, you are not a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare."

and I will return this and say that if this were the case then YOU are ALSO unable to compare how much better your sensitivity (if you understand this notion) may potentially be RIGHT NOW without your excess muscle

I sense you are a little if not wholly closed to the idea which is fine and certainly your prerogative as I say I am keen NOT to cajole anyone into doing something that would diminish their training or self-worth.. However I will say that over the course of a year I went hell-for-leather as we say here .. I more than doubled my max bench press weight and got myself to over 400lbs leg press which I was pleased with for my diminutive frame and was taking supplemental protein shakes and in the end made for me what I am told was significant gain which the gym trainers told me WOULD happen as a beginner to weight training but I will say that with all this excess muscular baggage I absolutely noticed a drop-off in my perception sensitivity when in direct contact with my uke.. and which is why I went to great lengths with a personal trainer to get myself BACK to my normal musculature and regaining what I class as the subtleties of touch sensitivity.. and so.. what does all this mean? To YOU my friend nothing but trivial anecdote backed up only by further anecdotal experiential or circumstantial evidence.. to me it has relevance to MY AIKIDO and perhaps it might have some relevance to others practicing the art. It is nothing more.. nothing less. I am NOT an evangelist nor am I a missionary for any cause... but respectfully... all stand for the next hymn..

Good luck
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.

It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving. What is the uke's body impacting against? The Aikidoka's muscles? Yep. And under that? The bone. So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke.

It follows logical that any change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.

The reason why shin kicks are so painful - there is very little muscle between the shin and the outer skin.

Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone. When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.

It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.

It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue...and for an art such as Aikido, this could make for a difference in how a technique is executed, esp. for someone at the dan ranks in the art that has the training and expertise to clue in to a lot of subtleties.


But since we Kenpokas are about as subtle as a handsword to the ribs, its back to the weight room for me :rofl:

ahh Carol my discerning and thoughtful friend for an excogitative post with your own ideas that you have evidently considered based on what I suggest.. and I ask NOTHING else.. well for giving this consideration here.. have a tasty reputation snack, ha!

Call me fickle Carol I will admit to it but doing a little reading and well.. Ayn Rand if you can imagine you put me onto indirectly.. and exactly what she said feels about right to me.. "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer..... What I am looking for is intelligent AGREEMENT.." Fickle yes probably that is the word.. but who cares...

Ahh but Carol as I sit here with my birch beside this poor dead horse ha! I am counting on the fingers of one hand the posts from folk at least open to consider the idea.. yours being one... And so for this alone you get one wish (expires today)...

Thank you my friend
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Oh dear dear LOL.. why if my little ol idea aint been taken right out of its little ol context! But as the lady said.. "I don't want realism, I want magic!" Ah what is a gal to do these days to just present an idea contrary to the belief of the proletariat? Oh! les moutons! où est votre gardien de troupeau? Je ne suis pas votre berger... ha! Pffft! oh well.. here they come to put me back to my box.. Continue.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Carol]

ahh Carol my discerning and thoughtful friend for an excogitative post with your own ideas that you have evidently considered based on what I suggest.. and I ask NOTHING else.. well for giving this consideration here.. have a tasty reputation snack, ha!

Call me fickle Carol I will admit to it but doing a little reading and well.. Ayn Rand if you can imagine you put me onto indirectly.. and exactly what she said feels about right to me.. "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer..... What I am looking for is intelligent AGREEMENT.." Fickle yes probably that is the word.. but who cares...

Ahh but Carol as I sit here with my birch beside this poor dead horse ha! I am counting on the fingers of one hand the posts from folk at least open to consider the idea.. yours being one... And so for this alone you get one wish (expires today)...

Thank you my friend
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna my friend,

There is nothing like you Brits and your use of the Queen's English to make a Yank feel rather dum....er....stupi...er....NOT British. Yes, that's it. I feel very not British.

(uhh, I had to look this up)

Ex-cog-i-a-tive
adjective
Of, characterized by, or disposed to thought

wow, thanks! :asian:

Of course it is only fair that share my snack with you my friend for a most excogitative topic.

It's a very interesting discussion. Something that I have found is that the subject of weight training is that it can bring out some surprisingly strong opinions and some of them can even be spouted by yours truly. You offered quite a bit to think about. And gosh darn it, I rather enjoy a good challenge! :bounce1:

Of course, it could also be that my mind is open strictly because my head is empty. :rofl: But in all seriousness...the reason that you expressed is probably the best of all...that it works for you and your training.

So one wish, eh? Well...I've had one wish in my head for a very long time. :closes eyes: I wish that same wish that I have been wishing, once more. :inhales sharply: So now I wait and hope and...I believe, I tell ya, I believe!!

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?

Bollocks!

 

[Adept]

I am neither desirous nor concerned to try to direct your training in any way contrary.

I know, and I;m sorry if my posts came across as overly defensive. It wasn't my intent.

I am NOT decrying weight training for hard-hitting arts for which muscle mass is relevant and NECESSARY.

I would assert that weight training is relevant and beneficial for all martial arts, and general good health to boot.

I am happy to be a "pec deck heretic", ha! I will get a t shirt made up that way.. pffft..

:uhyeah:

and I will return this and say that if this were the case then YOU are ALSO unable to compare how much better your sensitivity (if you understand this notion) may potentially be RIGHT NOW without your excess muscle

But having developed from a skinny guy to a considerably more solid guy, I have experience on both ends of the spectrum.

I will say that with all this excess muscular baggage I absolutely noticed a drop-off in my perception sensitivity when in direct contact with my uke.

I can only surmise it must have been for other reasons.

[quote-Carol Kaur]Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.

It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving.[/quote]

Given the way the body works, it is impossible for extra muscle to affect the way nerve impulses are perceived, transmitted and processed by the brain.

What is the uke's body impacting against? The Aikidoka's muscles? Yep. And under that? The bone. So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke.

It follows logical that any change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.

Only if that tissue change was a change to the actual neurons relaying information to and from the brain. Those muscles will still feel the same impact, regardless of their size.

Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone. When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.

It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.

Absolutely. But the receptors for pressure are not located inside of muscles, or on the bones, but in the skin. In this instance, you would feel the uke's movement because of the way they move your own body. Thicker muscles will only prevent this if you wish them to, and you certainly dont have to.

It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue

But only if that extra muscle is tensed to absord the impact. If not, the impact will be felt, regardless of the size of the muscle.

 

[MartialIntent]

While I can't claim any great physiological or neurological knowledge, I appreciate exactly what Jenna is saying here. There's something about the movement in a muscular aikidoka that creates a noticeable demarcation between them and non-muscular counterparts. This is just an observation of mine and isn't meant as an offensive remark.

Bottom line is, if you have experienced this when doing any of the sensitivity exercises in your Aikido, you'll understand, and if not, it'll probably never really make sense.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?

Bollocks!

Someone needs a hug.

 

[Jenna]

While I can't claim any great physiological or neurological knowledge, I appreciate exactly what Jenna is saying here. There's something about the movement in a muscular aikidoka that creates a noticeable demarcation between them and non-muscular counterparts. This is just an observation of mine and isn't meant as an offensive remark.

Bottom line is, if you have experienced this when doing any of the sensitivity exercises in your Aikido, you'll understand, and if not, it'll probably never really make sense.

Respects!

Exactly my ever wise friend and you are clever to discern this.. Let me give another example.. In all the words I have in me I can NEVER describe PAIN to you. I can describe the mechanics of it but NEVER the absolute sensation. The best I can do is prick you and say.. there.. that is pain. In many ways you are correct that the seme holds true for this touch and movement sensitivity.

And I am just trying to give something here my friend but I am being mistaken for someone who is trying to take away... Ahh...

Thank you again for your always incisive thoughts.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[spinkick]

That is right on!

Brian R. VanCise

I gotta agree with you guys, the only problem with weight training is it hurts flexibility, but that can be easily fixed if you stretch....

 

[tempus]

Reading thru this I now understand where the original statement is going. Being one who does aikido and is muscular I will agree with the sensativity. Since when a smaller Uke attacks I barely feel them and toss them with easy and almost bounce them off of the wall on the other side of the room. When an Uke attacks me that out weighs me I can feel there energy more.

With that being said I will still weight train as much as I can, as I have for many years, to be as muscular and strong as I can be for two reasons:
1) Health
2) No matter how much I train. If a real world situation occurs where I need to defend my self and either I make a mistake (no one is perfect) or the location causes an issue. The added muscle strength will allow me to strike with power, redirect the energy forcefully or start the energy up again.

 

[KOROHO]

Weight training is not needed for an Aikidoka, but there is nothing wrong with adding it to your training.
You just need to remain cautious of flexibility and range of motion. I would not advocate "body building" but building and maintaining good muscle tone and strength and endurance is good for everyone.

 

[bignick]

I gotta agree with you guys, the only problem with weight training is it hurts flexibility, but that can be easily fixed if you stretch....

Not stretching is the cause of loss of flexibility, not weight training. If you don't use something you lose it...period...