Watered Down Martial Arts

[Daniel Sullivan]

1) Nothing! You got me.

2) I gotcha, understood.

3) I hated it! It looked like they were dancing - not fighting!


:slapfight:

Its not for everyone, but then neither is anything else. I still train in TKD and probably always will; first love kind of thing. But I mainly concentrate on and instruct hapkido and kumdo.

The WTF rules are not my cup of tea, but they do have merit.

The pumse (forms) have a much greater concentration of hand techniques while the shihap kyorugi (sparring) focuses mainly on kicking techniques. If you want to develop good kicks, TKD sparring as seen in the olympics is a great vehicle.

Distance management and timing are also crucial in the sport. The hands down makes sense in the context; it is more effective to avoid head level kicks than it is to block them and keeping your guard low keeps the body guarded.

In the end, I found that hapkido was a better fit for me. When I practice taekwondo, it is just taekwondo. I don't ask it to be what it isn't, love it for what it is, and study arts that have the elements that I like that are not found in taekwondo.

Certainly, I won't tell you that you should like it. Sounds like Judo and BJJ are probably a better fit for you than TKD would be anyway.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I totally agree. Unless it was my initial intent to take it as a sport, I would never join a school that emphasized this type. I wanted to learn to fight/defend myself, not score points and earn trophies. I did this some and enjoyed it, however, my intent was never anything close to this.

I think it is bad for the various arts to water them down. The term is "martial art" . It was intended for war. Keep it that way.

Just my opinion,

James

Yes, but again, many of the arts that people practice were not "intended for war" at all.

Judo was never intended for war. Neither was taekwondo, hapkido, aikido, kyokushin, Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Keysi, or most of the arts that are mixed to become MMA.

So how can you ask that they keep it that way if it was never that way to begin with?

Daniel

 

[frank raud]

Judo champion, do you teach old school judo, with the banned techniques(leg locks, neck cranks, kani basami, dojime, etc.) or do you follow the IJF rules and only teach what is competition legal? If you teach the old techniques, were did you learn them?

 

[Champ-Pain]

Judo champion, do you teach old school judo, with the banned techniques(leg locks, neck cranks, kani basami, dojime, etc.) or do you follow the IJF rules and only teach what is competition legal? If you teach the old techniques, were did you learn them?

Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.

Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:

My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:

 

[Blade96]

Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in tournaments

Same here - Some of the things we learn in Shotokan Karate we are not allowed to use them in tournaments.

 

[frank raud]

Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.

Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:

My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:

I asked where you learned them as many instructors have never been taught the banned tecniques. A lot of schools with a heavy competion emphasis don't teach much in the way of techniques that can't be used in competion, or that are not a requirement for belt testing.

Are you suggesting that "Morote gari" and "Kata Garuma" are banned techniques?

 

[Champ-Pain]

Are you suggesting that "Morote gari" and "Kata Garuma" are banned techniques?

It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.

 

[RRepster]

Personally I feel martial arts being watered down is a tragedy. Judo was created as a sport from Ju Jutsu however it was still a very brutal art. I am saddened to hear that some of the chokes and throws have been eliminated from judo for the olympics.

More personal to me is the push for on sport karate (whats being called traditional) through the groups trying to get karate in the olympics. They are trying to drastically systemize karatedo which even today in Okinawa it is not. The Okinawan's still teach people to their strengths for the most part and it is acceptable if someone doing kata looks a little different than someone else. The emphasis is still in the bunkai not on the show. At least thats what I saw when I was there last year. As a long time karate practioner (approaching 30 years) it is my believe that the tradition should be what it was created for self-preservation not sport.

Mind you I enjoy getting involved in tournaments and such but I believe the focus for many has gone to the trophy and not bettering oneself as a whole through the training.

As far as a Olympic TKD honestly I think it looks ridiculous and is not even recognizable to traditional TKD which I have a great respect for when it is taught correctly.

Just my .02

So many good points in your two cents Brandon. I really like your point about Karatedo looking different based on peoples strengths, weaknesses and even abilities/disabilities. Everytime I hear someone say in my TKD class, "Less punching, this is TKD we are 80%+ kicking!" I just want to vomit because they may as well just call it KD then instead of TKD and they are trying to tell me who has trained TKD for 25 years and used parts of my training for REAL in the military that I'm somehow not practicing TKD. What that really illustrates IMO is people who don't truly understand the DO part. I really think one who understands that part of the name can excel at whatever art they want be it TKD, JUDO, or the myriad styles of CMA.

So what do we do? That answer is actually easier than we may think and starts with a simple question: How bad do you want it? If new to the art but the real thing you may have to hunt for it far and wide but it's there. Mr. Miyagi is out there, he just may not be at your YMCA or rented commercial dojo. I found him for Hsing-I training and have to do a lot of solo training, maintain correspondence and travel when I can to him but it's worth it. In the meantime I attend the TKD class with all its good things and bad things we are lamenting about in this thread BUT it's fun, is a good aerobic exercise, and I practice it with my daughter who is learning discipline, citizenship, and the exercise literally is saving her life (she has Cystic Fibrosis and cardio/aerobic helps expel mucus from the lungs and chest cavity).

Also those who've found things lacking in their martial arts place may be ready to teach. Talk to your master, I bet she'll agree with you and you and the other seniors may be able to set up an advanced class. If for some weird reason she doesn't see your point then the time really has come to part ways because no further learning is likely capable on your part from them. Find another master to report to while you set off to become Mr. Miyagi.

 

[RRepster]

It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.

Yea but does that mean it's not practiced in class as self defense part? Also remember Judo was set up to BE sport therefore it will evolve for the safety of players and excitement of audience.

I mean come on, we all know three places are the best targets for self defense but when we practice them we do not actually strike them and they are banned in sport for obvious reasons: eyes, groin, throat, and even the knee. If you get disabled every week in class your not going to get much training done.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Yea but does that mean it's not practiced in class as self defense part? Also remember Judo was set up to BE sport therefore it will evolve for the safety of players and excitement of audience.

I mean come on, we all know three places are the best targets for self defense but when we practice them we do not actually strike them and they are banned in sport for obvious reasons: eyes, groin, throat, and even the knee. If you get disabled every week in class your not going to get much training done.

I assume you are not referring to me when making your point - since I've already posted that I do teach many things that are illegal and NOT allowed in Judo competition - you saw the list a few posts ago... I even teach some small joint manipulation. Doesn't mean we actually use it while rolling or Randori. But yeah, I teach it, we practice it in a controled environment, but the players know it is NOT to be used in Judo competition. I teach them stuff and I tell them what they can and can't do in tournaments - and they've learned two lessons in one.

On the Original Topic - Kouchi Stemi is now very iffy and in fact, I am asking my students to be very careful how and when they use it, if at all. They are (the Refs) calling more and more HonsakuMake on this techniqus, and I suspect they will continue to do so, until it is driven to extinction... more watering down by taking away techniques that work when properly taught, practiced and applied.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.

Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:

My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:

No Kani Basami? Kani Basami is a cool throw. Of course, I can't nail it, but it's cool to watch.

 

[frank raud]

It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.

Yet they are completely legal if used as a followup in a combination. Kani Basami is banned outright, neck locks and cranks are banned outright. The IJF wants to avoid wrestling style takedowns as a first line of offense to help differentiate between different styles of grappling and judo. Not saying I agree with it, but it is an interesting "ban" as the techniques remain legal if used in combination.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I understand your point - but techniques that cause NO injury and are part of other styles (BJJ, Wrestling, Grappling) and have been proven to be effective - such as Morote Gari, Kata Guruma and now, Koushi Stemi, are banned from Judo, due to players who are ahead on the score and use these techniques with NO real effort or conviction to finish the throw - and in fact, are using it as a stalling tactic in an effort to just take time off the clock and win by decision - instead of trying to win by Ippon! Nothing to do with trying to prevent injury or anyone from getting hurt in any way... and some of what you posted, as well.

 

[MJS]

Good or bad, there are certain decisions that are already made that will not be unmade.

Starting with the Olympics, people who watch it and then disregard or disrespect it because they don't like the rule set are simply a fact of life. If you don't get it, you don't get it. There really is no way to change that short of radically altering the rules. Since they put the rules in place for specific reasons, the rules should not be changed.

The demographic is another thing: it is primarily families and kids followed by working adults who want to train and get into shape and 'always wanted to try karate.' No matter how badly we may want to change that, the bulk of MA students in the US fall into those categories. The bulk of those students are not going to turn into MMA champions or super street fighters, nor are they going to perform with 'military precision.'

Other organizations with differing goals on what taekwondo should be also affect things. The OP was criticizing "Olympic style" when what he actually had seen in his area was ATA style. To outsiders, there is just "taekwondo." Since you cannot control what other organizations do, that issue will never go away.

About the only thing that the Kukkiwon could do to would potentially address the gripes of people in the US would be to increase time in grade requirement for ildan to a hard 3-4 years.

No point in doing that though; the same people who complain about that would simply find something else to complain about.

Greater oversight might also help, but then the same people who complain about lack of enforcement on the Kukkiwon's part would then rail against some big "foreign org" telling them how to run their school.

Finally, I'm not sure that TKD's image with the general public needs any fixing. If its a question of impressing other MA practitioners, then I don't see the need.

Again the major issue is the commercialism factor, but that is hardly limited to Taekwondo.

Daniel

Well, as usual, I can always count on a nice reply from you Dan. The only thing that I'll comment on is the demographic. Yes, I certainly understand this, and have said it myself many times....that people will all have their own reasons for training....some for fitness, to meet new people, etc. After having alot of training and teaching time under my belt, IMO, the majority is the group that I mentioned, and the minority are the ones who actually care about what they're learning, put in the blood, sweat and tears, bust their *** every class, and care about 1 thing....ensuring that what they're learning will work, should they need to use it.

So, that being said, unless the school owner isn't relying on their school as their bread and butter, they'll most likely bow down to the majority. Nothing wrong with this I suppose, but in the end you'll end up with alot of people who enroll themselves or their kids, and think that the training they're receiving is really worth something, when in reality, its not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, as usual, I can always count on a nice reply from you Dan. The only thing that I'll comment on is the demographic. Yes, I certainly understand this, and have said it myself many times....that people will all have their own reasons for training....some for fitness, to meet new people, etc. After having alot of training and teaching time under my belt, IMO, the majority is the group that I mentioned, and the minority are the ones who actually care about what they're learning, put in the blood, sweat and tears, bust their *** every class, and care about 1 thing....ensuring that what they're learning will work, should they need to use it.

Indeed. Agree completely.

So, that being said, unless the school owner isn't relying on their school as their bread and butter, they'll most likely bow down to the majority. Nothing wrong with this I suppose, but in the end you'll end up with alot of people who enroll themselves or their kids, and think that the training they're receiving is really worth something, when in reality, its not.

Well, really worth something is open to interpretation. If they join for fitness and become fit, then their training has the worth that they sought. If they have their kids in the class in order for them to learn greater discipline and to help them develop as people, then again, the training has the worth that was sought.

Will it have any worth if the student enters open competition or should need to defend themselves? That is another question. Do they care if it has worth in that regard? Also another question.

Daniel

 

[RRepster]

I assume you are not referring to me when making your point

correct, just thoughts based off the quote.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Thank you for you comments on my comments RRepster.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.

1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
2) NO punches allowed.
3) Hands held down low.
4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.
5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.
6) 100 lbs of protective gear.
7) Board breaking...

... How does breaking boards make you a Martial Artist, and/or help you win a match or any other kind of fight? It's nothing more than a marketing tool, used in order to make the students feel good about themselves - to keep them coming back, and to collect a hefty fee from the parents, on a regular basis.

 

[tinker1]

1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
2) NO punches allowed.
3) Hands held down low.
4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.
5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.
6) 100 lbs of protective gear.
7) Board breaking....

I've seen many / most of these things in schools of other MA styles as well. So I view this as more of an instructor problem than anything else.

1) bouncing.
I never taught this.. I consider it a waste of energy - AND more importantly you take away 50% of the time you could use to launch an attack. It also leaves you vulnerable.. all you have to do is time their jumps (which are usually rhythmic) and come at them as soon as they leave the ground. The additional delay they incur because they are in the air usually results in success for you.

2) no punches
Some people have a definite preference for kicking, just as some have a preference for punching. If that's their "style" then they can learn to deal with it. If they are successful with that "style" of fighting, who am I to tell them to do otherwise. HOWEVER at the least, the student needs to be able to defend against punches.

3) low hands
Consequences of this action are the best teacher. Let them get smacked a few times.. then suggest that maybe they should do something with their hand position.

4) child black belts
I believe this is more of a money maker for the school than it is anything else. BUT if they can do the work, then they deserve the rank. Typically kids under 16 - 18 years are given poom belts, and are retested when they are older for their black belts.
BUT how do you view small people with black belts? I have seen very small women (< 5') earn dan rank. If you object to children with dan rank, then how do you feel about small people? Just curious.

5) undeserved promotions
I've seen this. I saw a girl get promoted for taking care of the Master's horse while he was away on vacation. It happens. No, it isn't right.. but it happens... in all schools (the example above was at a Kenpo school).

6) excess protective gear
A friend of mine runs a Shotokan school - and his insurance demands that if there is a piece of protective padding, that his students wear it during sparring - and during all contact training. Not doing so constitutes negligence in the eyes of his insurance company.

7) board breaking
Pros and Cons go both ways on this. There is some benefit to this type of training, but that benefit can be attained by other training methods. People who have to break at a rank testing get a feeling of accomplishment.. which is good for business.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I've seen many / most of these things in schools of other MA styles as well. So I view this as more of an instructor problem than anything else.

1) bouncing.
I never taught this.. I consider it a waste of energy - AND more importantly you take away 50% of the time you could use to launch an attack. It also leaves you vulnerable.. all you have to do is time their jumps (which are usually rhythmic) and come at them as soon as they leave the ground. The additional delay they incur because they are in the air usually results in success for you.

2) no punches
Some people have a definite preference for kicking, just as some have a preference for punching. If that's their "style" then they can learn to deal with it. If they are successful with that "style" of fighting, who am I to tell them to do otherwise. HOWEVER at the least, the student needs to be able to defend against punches.

3) low hands
Consequences of this action are the best teacher. Let them get smacked a few times.. then suggest that maybe they should do something with their hand position.

4) child black belts
I believe this is more of a money maker for the school than it is anything else. BUT if they can do the work, then they deserve the rank. Typically kids under 16 - 18 years are given poom belts, and are retested when they are older for their black belts.
BUT how do you view small people with black belts? I have seen very small women (< 5') earn dan rank. If you object to children with dan rank, then how do you feel about small people? Just curious.

5) undeserved promotions
I've seen this. I saw a girl get promoted for taking care of the Master's horse while he was away on vacation. It happens. No, it isn't right.. but it happens... in all schools (the example above was at a Kenpo school).

6) excess protective gear
A friend of mine runs a Shotokan school - and his insurance demands that if there is a piece of protective padding, that his students wear it during sparring - and during all contact training. Not doing so constitutes negligence in the eyes of his insurance company.

7) board breaking
Pros and Cons go both ways on this. There is some benefit to this type of training, but that benefit can be attained by other training methods. People who have to break at a rank testing get a feeling of accomplishment.. which is good for business.

I'm not sure if you agree with me, or if you're just throwing excuses out there. Either way - Thanks for your response.