Watered Down Martial Arts

[Champ-Pain]

My Grandfather fought in the trenches in Europe during WW 1.

My Father engaged in quite a lot of hand to hand combat when operating behind enemy lines in China during WW 2.

Just sayin..

So did a few of my BEST friends - in Vietnam and elsewhere... My cousin did as well in ********. I can't say - it was a covert operation.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.

BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.

Members who know exactly as much about TaeKwonDo as you do. That is to say, absolutely nothing. I have decent Judo, IMO, and my first line of defense if I have to use it is the completely standard elbow across the nose that every WTF school, ever, teaches.

Maybe if you'd learn a bit about a style before bashing it, especially coming from a sport Judo background, I wouldn't be laughing behind my computer screen right now. What exactly is more useful about lying on one's stomach and waiting for the ref to call matte?

I say this as someone who trains both and believe it or not really loves Judo. As a matter of fact, my last Judo shiai was 2 weeks ago.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.

And what do you know?

Apparently, not the technique set taught. You haven't trained in it, so your information certainly isn't first hand. So, your statement about TKD being ineffective and useless in self defense is also empty; you don't know what the art involves or what is taught, the teaching pedagogy or reasons for the rule set seen in the Olympics.

BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.

Been here a lot longer than you and have read them many times. Again, it isn't about opinion. Either you deal with facts or you don't. If this is how are supporting your points, you are not dealing with facts.

I'm not a huge fan of WTF sparring for various reasons, but I can tell you that the art is not laughable in its current form. A form that really hasn't changed since at least the seventies. I will also say that WTF tournament rules do have their merits; it just isn't my cup of tea.

The biggest change to TKD is not in the art itself, but the in the demographic; lots more kids and lots more people who are less interested in fighting and just want a good workout in cool pajamas. And this is hardly limited to TKD. Pretty common in most popular systems.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My Grandfather fought in the trenches in Europe during WW 1.

My Father engaged in quite a lot of hand to hand combat when operating behind enemy lines in China during WW 2.

Just sayin..

And my thanks to your father and grandfather!

However, given that I never made a case for zero h2h in war, your statement really doesn't address my comments.

Nor does it make taekwondo or judo war arts or change the fact that the primary weapon of the soldier is the rifle.

H2h has been the last resort for centuries, as weapons of some kind have always been the first choice. The fact that some h2h still can happen does not change that. And what h2h soldiers learn is not taekwondo or judo. It is, I suspect primarily gross motor skill based and is designed to be usable while wearing the gear that a modern soldier wears.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.

BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.

That is a huge call to make, you obviously know very little about tkd. I train tkd with many 4th, 5th and 6th dans who are leo's, bouncers etc and Im pretty sure if tkd was "ineffective" they wouldnt have stuck around for the last 25 years learning it. I think they would have figured out by now it doesnt work. After seeing someone at a night club "defending themself" by rolling on the floor doing bjj while 6 of his attackers mates booted him in the head there would be a strong argument to say bjj is ineffective. Or watching my mate who is a boxer get floored at a pub because he had his legs kicked out from under him, could lead me to say boxing is ineffective. I will never say an art is ineffective, its just to big a call to make.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Trying to restrain people may be considered a form of war... or at the very least, a fight. Fighting is war and visa versa.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you've never been in a war in your life. Fighting is not war. War is not fighting. Having participated in both, I can tell you with certainty that they are not the same thing.

 

[Josh Oakley]

One thing that sticks in my mind about this conversation is the casual tossing about of the term "water down". By dictionary definition, this term means that its force or effectiveness has been reduced.


What seems to be overlooked is that something's effectiveness depends upon that which it trying to affect. If the intended goal id competition, then getting rid of techniques that do not score points increases its effectiveness, according to their stated goal. To include techniques that have no use in sport, in this context, "water down" the sport.

 

[StagTown]

You are describing amateur rules boxing. Headguards are not allowed in professional boxing, althought they are used in sparring. When has fighting to the death ever been encouraged in boxing?

sorry frank but youve mistaken a bit of a throw away comment to respond to......some of the restrictions placed on olympic competition are warranted and maybe restricted is a better word then watered down.....I have the greatest respect for any competitors who perform in any ruleset and my mention of boxing in regard to TKD/judo was just a point that combat arts are a lot milder at the olympics.

regards stagtown

 

[MJS]

It is a civilian fighting system. Civilian meaning that it was developed primarily by people outside of the military and it was not developed fur use during any war. The current style of sparring came about in the late sixties or early seventies and if I remember correctly, it was developed by the Jidokwan. Prior to that, and even after that, most taekwondoin fought in karate tournaments under whatever rules they had.

Was there ever a "Military" version, for lack of better words?

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for enriching the curriculum. Adding a well developed weapons curriculum to an unarmed art is fine by me, but as you said, it is not relevant to the art.

Really, when I think of watering down a TKD curriculum, I think of things like Action flex weapons and American Gladiator looking sparring between twelve year olds.

If a school adds weapon forms but never does any drills or any sort of applications, then that is watering down the curriculum as well.

Daniel

Yes, I'm with you on that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Was there ever a "Military" version, for lack of better words?

Not to my knowledge. There was an 'Ohdokwan' which was a military gym where General Choi practiced, but there was really no Ohdokwan taekwondo. Most or all of the people training there where Chungdokwan members who were also in the military. Ohdokwan, if I recall, meant 'our way hall' and was not dedicated to a specific style. I'm sure that Earl or Glenn can offer much more detail than I on that one.

Also, at that time it wasn't called taekwondo. Pretty sure that the CDK was still calling it Tangsudo. In other words, they were still practicing Shotokan karate, which CDK founder held a dan grade in (fourth I believe).

The development of taekwondo as a separate art took well over twenty years. The CDK opened in 1944. The name, Taekwondo, was not coined until 1955. It was not adopted by the kwans as a whole until 1965. The Kukkiwon was establhised in 1973. Taekwondo debuted as an exhibition sport in the Olympics in 1988 and became a medaled sport in the ninties.

The sparring style seen in the olympics and in WTF events was developed to resemble taekkyeon. And if Hanja for taekkyeon had existed, it would be called taekkyeondo, not taekwondo. While taekwondo is not taekkyeon, creating a rule set that rewards high kicking and restricts hand techniques will make anything look like taekkyeon to someone who doesn't know what taekkyeon really looks like. It also made taekwondo tournaments distinct from open karate tournaments.

As far as military taekwondo, take Kukki taekwondo and make it part of regular Marine Corps training. No rule changes. Entire class are US Marines. The intructor is, lets say, a 5th dan Marine Corps drill seargant.

Now, imagine what their taekwondo will look like. Well, you don't have to imagine. Just watch the Korean team training in Best of the Best. Replace them with a bunch of US Marines and replace Hee Il Cho with a Marine Corps Drill seargant.

Same curriculum, whole different attitude.

Daniel

 

[tinker1]

And my thanks to your father and grandfather!

However, given that I never made a case for zero h2h in war, your statement really doesn't address my comments.

Nor does it make taekwondo or judo war arts or change the fact that the primary weapon of the soldier is the rifle.

H2h has been the last resort for centuries, as weapons of some kind have always been the first choice. The fact that some h2h still can happen does not change that. And what h2h soldiers learn is not taekwondo or judo. It is, I suspect primarily gross motor skill based and is designed to be usable while wearing the gear that a modern soldier wears.

Daniel

My father's intention was that I follow in his footsteps, and that's how I came to be studying Savate at age 5. Savate, at least at that time included quite a lot of knife work. I don't think it does anymore, as it too has been "watered down".

He knew that things often go south in combat, and you can't always rely on your weapon.

Someone pointed out that "watered down" really not a proper term for what has happened to these arts over the years. I believe "reduced" or "diminished" would be better. This is because the curriculum has been reduced, in part due to the advent of Olympic sport competition.

If the main focus of the art becomes sport competition, then parts of the art that have no relevance in competition will inevitably reduced or diminished. Another reason for this reduction is that the general population is really less interested in the old curriculum. They would rather be learning jump spin kicks than spend hours working on proper body position and bone alignment necessary for a reverse punch. Martial Arts becoming a business has had at least as much effect on the reduction of the art as has sport in my opinion.

In General Choi's book "Taekwondo" he describes the purpose of the art as (in part) defending the weak. The other purposes he mentions (if memory serves) do not include competition of any type. The purposes of the art were to develop character, improve health, and defend the weak. It was therefore based on combat.

I think Olympic style TKD practitioners can be successful in a SD situation. This is mostly due to their superior physical conditioning, strength, speed, and sparring experience. However, the depth and range of the techniques they learn is less than that of a traditionally trained practitioner.

I think that is the point of this tread. Not that Olympic style TKD is invalid in SD, because it isn't. I do believe though that the Olympic style is less valid in SD than is the traditional style.

I met a fellow in Hawaii - perhaps 10 or 15 years ago - who had an advanced Dan rank in TKD and was a huge proponent of the WTF and the Olympic style. He did tell me of a situation wherein he was attacked by someone that wanted to steal his wallet. What he did to discourage this attacker and save himself was to throw repeated round house kicks at his attackers legs and mid section. He said that eventually his attacker got discouraged and went away.

Contrast that with one of my seniors (back in the 70's) who owned a music store... One day a guy kicked in the door to his office and lunged at him. (he had no idea why) My senior stood and threw one punch - hitting the attacker between the bottom of his nose and his upper lip (pressure point). He said his attacker went down and didn't move.

In both these situations TKD was used successfully to defend themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Someone pointed out that "watered down" really not a proper term for what has happened to these arts over the years. I believe "reduced" or "diminished" would be better. This is because the curriculum has been reduced, in part due to the advent of Olympic sport competition.

That was me and I agree.

If the main focus of the art becomes sport competition, then parts of the art that have no relevance in competition will inevitably reduced or diminished. Another reason for this reduction is that the general population is really less interested in the old curriculum. They would rather be learning jump spin kicks than spend hours working on proper body position and bone alignment necessary for a reverse punch. Martial Arts becoming a business has had at least as much effect on the reduction of the art as has sport in my opinion.

That is that demographic shift and commercialization of many, but certainly not all, schools, element that I mentioned earlier.

In General Choi's book "Taekwondo" he describes the purpose of the art as (in part) defending the weak. The other purposes he mentions (if memory serves) do not include competition of any type. The purposes of the art were to develop character, improve health, and defend the weak. It was therefore based on combat.

I think Olympic style TKD practitioners can be successful in a SD situation. This is mostly due to their superior physical conditioning, strength, speed, and sparring experience. However, the depth and range of the techniques they learn is less than that of a traditionally trained practitioner.

I think that is the point of this tread. Not that Olympic style TKD is invalid in SD, because it isn't. I do believe though that the Olympic style is less valid in SD than is the traditional style.

Judochampion is completely overlooking ITF taekwondo and of course is overlooking pretty much the entirety of Kukkiwon taekwondo as well.

I met a fellow in Hawaii - perhaps 10 or 15 years ago - who had an advanced Dan rank in TKD and was a huge proponent of the WTF and the Olympic style. He did tell me of a situation wherein he was attacked by someone that wanted to steal his wallet. What he did to discourage this attacker and save himself was to throw repeated round house kicks at his attackers legs and mid section. He said that eventually his attacker got discouraged and went away.

Contrast that with one of my seniors (back in the 70's) who owned a music store... One day a guy kicked in the door to his office and lunged at him. (he had no idea why) My senior stood and threw one punch - hitting the attacker between the bottom of his nose and his upper lip (pressure point). He said his attacker went down and didn't move.

In both these situations TKD was used successfully to defend themselves.

Both good examples. I have used taekwondo in self defense myself: low side kick to the knee of a would be mugger armed with a knife followed by application of Fleet Run Do.

Daniel

 

[Champ-Pain]

Some of you TKD guys are only reading bits and pieces of what I'm saying. I don't know how it's taught in your area - only how it's taught in mine... and I'm sorry to say that the Olympic Style TKD they are teaching HERE IN S. FLORIDA is NOT Martial Arts. And if this is what they teach elsewhere - well then, you can see how I came to my conclusion.

The part about Judo laying face down til they call matte' - I hate that. In fact, I don't teach my players that at all. Instead, I teach them to fight from the guard - like in BJJ.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Some of you TKD guys are only reading bits and pieces of what I'm saying. I don't know how it's taught in your area - only how it's taught in mine... and I'm sorry to say that the Olympic Style TKD they are teaching HERE IN S. FLORIDA is NOT Martial Arts. And if this is what they teach elsewhere - well then, you can see how I came to my conclusion.

No, we read it all. Aside from saying that TKD sucks in so many words and claiming that it has been watered down from military origins that it never had, you really haven't said all that much.

Florida is a pretty big state, so unless you have visited the majority of the schools and have observed them for a meaningful amount of time, you probably are not all that knowledgeable as to what is being taught in TKD schools in Florida.

Also, again, there is no "Olympic style." There are WTF sparring rules that athletes compete under, which are also used in the Olympics. The Olympics does not have a forms or breaking portion, which is a mainstay of non-Olympic competitions.

If you are seeing a school that is WTF competition sparring only, then chances are, it isn't a school so much as a competition team, but there certainly are not enough of those in the country to make anyone think that that is the norm, and there certainly are not enough in any one state.

Chances are, you saw WTF sparring, didn't like it, and concluded that that is what TKD is all about, and then went on the internet and made unsupportable statements about the art.

Daniel

 

[frank raud]

sorry frank but youve mistaken a bit of a throw away comment to respond to......some of the restrictions placed on olympic competition are warranted and maybe restricted is a better word then watered down.....I have the greatest respect for any competitors who perform in any ruleset and my mention of boxing in regard to TKD/judo was just a point that combat arts are a lot milder at the olympics.

regards stagtown

Stagtown, you were the second person to reference boxing in this thread. Add your comment about fighting to the death being encouraged, you consider that a throwaway comment? Again, when was fighting to the death encouraged?

 

[Champ-Pain]

No, we read it all. Aside from saying that TKD sucks in so many words and claiming that it has been watered down from military origins that it never had, you really haven't said all that much.

Florida is a pretty big state, so unless you have visited the majority of the schools and have observed them for a meaningful amount of time, you probably are not all that knowledgeable as to what is being taught in TKD schools in Florida.

Also, again, there is no "Olympic style." There are WTF sparring rules that athletes compete under, which are also used in the Olympics. The Olympics does not have a forms or breaking portion, which is a mainstay of non-Olympic competitions.

If you are seeing a school that is WTF competition sparring only, then chances are, it isn't a school so much as a competition team, but there certainly are not enough of those in the country to make anyone think that that is the norm, and there certainly are not enough in any one state.

Chances are, you saw WTF sparring, didn't like it, and concluded that that is what TKD is all about, and then went on the internet and made unsupportable statements about the art.

Daniel

Danny - I am NOT the only one who thinks this way... NOT by a long shot! There must be a reason. Either way, I did not start this thread just so I could argue with you back and forth - You have the last word. I won't respond.

 

[Champ-Pain]

when was fighting to the death encouraged?

Enter the Dragon!!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?

Incidentally, not only do you not know anything about the art, but your argument against Olympic taekwondo is non existant because ATA taekwondo is not in the olympics and TKD at Bally's is for fitness, not self defense or competition.

The US affiliate for the WTF is USAT, not the ATA. The ATA is a separate organization with their own forms, curriculum and sparring rules.

Again, you are posting from ignorance with regards to the subject.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Danny - I am NOT the only one who thinks this way... NOT by a long shot! There must be a reason. Either way, I did not start this thread just so I could argue with you back and forth - You have the last word. I won't respond.

We aren't arguing: you are making inaccurate statements about an art that you know nothing about. I have given you accurate and correct information, both on the art itself and on its background.

You can either keep your mind closed to correct information or you can try to learn more. I've pointed you to the water, but that is up to you to drink.

Daniel

 

[Champ-Pain]

^^ COOL ^^ :BSmeter: Whatever you say!