Your Art on Screen: Help or Hindrance?

[MartialIntent]

Well the character "Sticks" from one of the Bruce Lee Movies was Dan Inosanto. He had to break a pool cue to have two sticks. Nice work and enjoyed, but thought it could have played a little more.

The Haunted with Sayoc Kali

Star Gate Atlantis has a Character who local the Pegasus Galaxy who does two sticks. Although she seems to fight well, although they brought in another "Big Guy" to do the heavy fighting. Why could she not do it?

Xena and even Hurcules which was filmed in New Zealand, had FMA and Indonesia arts, but they did two stick pattern work as well.

The Bourne movies were ok, for some of the stuff, and this was more like what I like to see, but most people did not know what it was.

While I like it, it just seems that if there is a case in the news, they play of the knife work of FMA's, while in TV the two stick pattern stuff seems to be the "safe" way to go and in the movies it is Death Knife work. No real in between.

Guess MY comment might have come across wrong.

Enter the Dragon, The Hunted and Bourne have some excellent stuff no doubt [loved that rolled-up newspaper!] but I still think the phenomenal technical and visual appeal of FMAs largely remain hidden under a bushel when it comes to Hollywood.

Are you happy for the Filipino arts to remain perhaps less well known by the non-martial-arts populus than some of the other arts or would you like to see a greater portrayal on the screen?

Looking forward to The Bourne Ultimatum too!

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Most people need and want a hero. Im martial arts movies, the main guy can do unrealistic hero types of things, and thats what alot of people like to see. As far as a happy medium, Im not sure thats possible because its either realistic or its not. I guess a movie script could have a character that was a mma fighter, became infected with some kind of virus/mutating/ ect something and then became some type of super martial artist. Great realistic fight scenes in the beginning(for real martial artists), then super powered ones in the end(for armchair martial artists).
Someone will do it sooner or later. I think thats the only way for a happy medium. It could be a great movie. You give people everything they need in that movie, very balanced, not sticking to realism or fantasy, but a little of both.

Good idea! I'm off to court my Hollywood producer friend. Maybe this is my ticket outta here

I think you're right though, successful movies focus on heroines and heroes. And I suppose martial artists have different criteria for belief in their lead character's ability to fight than non-martial artists. Commonsense really.

As stated already watching modern fight scenes often rely of total suspension of belief but I think a martial artist is naturally more sceptical and perhaps critical and has a little more of a hard time suspending belief than those who do not practise.

Now Wachowski Brothers... where did I put that number? Hehe.

Respects!

 

[Bigshadow]

I have to say I ENJOY cheesy ninja flicks, but damn...

I used to like to watch cheesy ninja flicks, but now, I cannot hardly stomach to see one. I find alot of martial arts movies less palatable now than before I started training. The main reason is that I see things I never saw before I ever started training. For instance, every sword fighting scene I see, I don't sense any real threat to either party. They are simply whacking swords and nobody is actually moving into position for the kill. I see this lack of danger with their body movements and the "excitement" is no longer there.

I used to love to watch highlander, but now, it is not so exciting. But then there are other fight scenes that are enjoyable to watch, but I relize they are so unrealistic that I can let my imagination take over and it makes it fun. Kind of like watching the melee in Lord of the Rings.

In escense my training has changed how I view martial arts in the movies and I for the most part don't find them very entertaining anymore. I generally am more interested in the story line, now.

 

[MartialIntent]

For instance, every sword fighting scene I see, I don't sense any real threat to either party. They are simply whacking swords and nobody is actually moving into position for the kill. I see this lack of danger with their body movements and the "excitement" is no longer there.

Yeah, you got me thinking - I haven't seen a great many convincing swordplay scenes lately. Last Samurai? Yea or nea?

In escense my training has changed how I view martial arts in the movies and I for the most part don't find them very entertaining anymore. I generally am more interested in the story line, now.

I see you're a member of the Bujinkan - Hollywood has not been kind to your art! Can you think of any benefits to seeing your art on the screen? And if not, what sort of martial screenplay would you like to see that would gain your respect or that of your fellow practitioners?

Respects!

 

[Bigshadow]

Last Samurai? Yea or nea?

IMHO Most of the sword play sucked! Although, I like the movie, it wasn't impressive regarding the sword work, especially the training/sparring scenes.

I see you're a member of the Bujinkan - Hollywood has not been kind to your art! Can you think of any benefits to seeing your art on the screen? And if not, what sort of martial screenplay would you like to see that would gain your respect or that of your fellow practitioners?

Respects!

(sigh) No, hollywood hasn't.... To be honest, I can't think of any benefits of seeing it on the screen. Honestly, I am really not too interested in seeing it on the Silver screen.

 

[Gemini]

I know I'm late here, but it's a good topic, so...

I think for the most part, MA's on the screen cause more harm than good. There have been some good ones, such as The Seven Samarai, but by and large they send a false portrayal of what the arts are all about. I saw mention of not only the movies but the Olympics, which I have mixed feelings about. Most people that see something "cool" and decide to join get a much clearer picture. Some quit and some stay, albeit more enlighened as to what the arts have to offer. I may be overpessimistic, but my biggest fear is that we may see such an influx of these students that we'll start seeing "The student create the art". By that I mean, there are those that see profit to be had in everything. If true practice of the arts is too much like work and scares people away, let's portray the art to mold around the students wishes. Some call these McDojo's. I call it inevitable.

 

[beau_safken]

Wouldn't really know...I haven't even seen a movie that has a Penjak Silat artist in a role. Least that I have ever heard about.

 

[MartialIntent]

(sigh) No, hollywood hasn't.... To be honest, I can't think of any benefits of seeing it on the screen. Honestly, I am really not too interested in seeing it on the Silver screen.

While I understand you're maybe coming from a position of apathy at the relentless "Ninja" movie trash spilling from the big studios, I say having *for once* a decent, accurate portrayal of Ninpo / Ninjutsu would REALLY allay some of the prejudices, stereotypes and potentially redress the balance in the eyes of the viewing public.

You might tell me you could care less - you practise your art as we all do, it works for us and we enjoy it and we're largely indifferent to what non-practitioners and non-martial artists think. On the other hand though, it's a shame that many of our amazing arts have become on our screens mere one-dimensional parodies of what they are in the real world.

I'd be interested to know from your good self [or any Ninjutsu folk who may be reading] what elements a movie might have that would more accurately portray the many facets of the art.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

I may be overpessimistic, but my biggest fear is that we may see such an influx of these students that we'll start seeing "The student create the art". By that I mean, there are those that see profit to be had in everything. If true practice of the arts is too much like work and scares people away, let's portray the art to mold around the students wishes. Some call these McDojo's. I call it inevitable.

I totally agree and the machinations of the commercial MA machine are well underway as we're all aware. I'm guessing you're one of the few remaining upholders of the TKD faith for whom the integrity of the art is not outweighed by the fistful of dollars?? Fairplay!

Would you say *all* arts are badly represented on screens big and small [badly as inaccurately]? And what will happen do you think if the likes of TKD do mold around students who are ignorant of the truer meanings of the art and schools serving no master but the bottom line?

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Wouldn't really know...I haven't even seen a movie that has a Penjak Silat artist in a role. Least that I have ever heard about.

Is that good or bad [or could you care less] that Indonesian arts in general are less well represented to the non-practising public?

And have you any idea why there have been no Silat sequences on our screens? Hollywood perpetually tell us they're seeking new innovative ideas...

Respects!

 

[IcemanSK]

I think you're right - the 2004 Athens Olympics drew something like 4 billion viewers worldwide over the course of its competitions. It's got the sort of outreach to potential students that NO school could ever hope of achieving so only the one aspect of TKD / Judo is ever gonna get seen.

And I think while undoubtedly this attracts a raft of new students, it's only attracting those who wish to practise the competitive, Olympic standard version of the art, creating a vicious circle [or virtuous circle depending on how you see it!]

There may be many more students both young [and perhaps more pertinently older potential students] who might never see the other side of Taekwondo: the self-defense, confidence building, flexibility maintaining art. Shame, but what's a school to do? Do you have an opinion?

Respects!

Someone compared Olympic TKD to Gymnastics. That is, most young kids that get involved NEVER reach Olympic level. But I don't think that a fair comparison. In Taekwondo, there is so much more than the Olympic-style.
Yet, I think if the "Oriental World of Self-Defense" on ABC-TV in the 70's could draw folks to the Arts, maybe so can Olympic coverage of TKD. Either way, its up to individual instructors to show what the Arts are really like.

Lord knows it happens in reverse. More than a few parents expected Mr. Miyagi & got Barney Fife instead.

 

[MartialIntent]

In Taekwondo, there is so much more than the Olympic-style.

No doubt! But with the viewing pull of the Olympics are all these other skills being overlooked? And in which case, what's your prognosis?

Yet, I think if the "Oriental World of Self-Defense" on ABC-TV in the 70's could draw folks to the Arts, maybe so can Olympic coverage of TKD. Either way, its up to individual instructors to show what the Arts are really like.

You definitely raise a couple of interesting points. On the Oriental World of Self-Defense, do you think in terms of the perception of martial arts, folk were more niave, and less knowledgeable in that era when "karate", Bruce Lee etc. were coming to prominence? Nowadays it seems, everyone is claiming some knowledge of martial arts [even if it's a half-assed half-truth learned from a movie or from a televised competition]

And on individual instructors blazing a trail of truth for their arts... I'd see an unfortunate truth in Gemini's point upthread that the opposite may be more accurate - ie. that the incorrect perception of the art that large numbers of new students might bring to an art [whether through movies or as you say, the Olympics] may actually force that untruth about the art to eventually become a truth.

Maybe this dilution, can I even say bastardizing of the art, doesn't happen overnight but I feel it's happening nevertheless by a process of attrition whereby schools are coerced financially into adapting their art around this great influx of false belief. The media have much to answer for [like they care!] But I can foresee many happy to tow the corporate line or adapt their own hard-fought and hard-won training merely to satisfy accountants or financiers. This is disturbing because if it begins with a gradual - though fundamental - change to the syllabus, where does it end?

Respects!

 

[Gemini]

Would you say *all* arts are badly represented on screens big and small [badly as inaccurately]

Yes, I would, simply because the truth in the arts, as with other truths depicted on the screen is simply too boring. That's not to say on occasion some don't try to hold integrity and some realism in what they portray. An example as mentioned above, The last Samaurai. The initial beating Tom Cruise took with the bokken was far more realistic than the fighting throughout the rest of the movie, but still had a bit of Hollywood flair added in. The point being, it didn't glorify what they were doing. It was meant to show a way of life and the methods for training, which I believe it did. Unfortunately, this is rare. More often we see someone like Jet Lee, who though has amazing abilities in his own right, still has to be tied to strings and flung through the air to appease the masses.

And what will happen do you think if the likes of TKD do mold around students who are ignorant of the truer meanings of the art and schools serving no master but the bottom line?

I believe that it will eventually gorge upon itself to the point where it inevitably must collapse. When the smoke clears, the true artists will emerge unscathed, not having taken any part in it while the arts once again fall out of favor with the GP. Then the cycle will begin again. Until then, I surround myself with people of like mind. Many of whom are here. I will train. I will be true to myself. I will uphold the integrity of the arts as best I am able.

 

[MartialIntent]

Yes, I would, simply because the truth in the arts, as with other truths depicted on the screen is simply too boring.

Don't mind me picking up on this one point... I think as members of the viewing public AND as practising martial artists, we've been conditioned over the years to *want* our screen martial artists to kick the teeth out of literally anyone who looks sideways at them. I know we all do that don't we? Even me. How so when it's not what we're all about in the real world? Escapism plain and simple.

But is that escapism from our martial arts reality? The reality of conditioning our limbs, improving our stamina, repeating the same kata or tech over and over and over - none of that stuff will ever make it to the screen [unless there's another Rocky... whaddya mean there IS! Damn!] But maybe through the movies for example we're allowing our martial arts alter egos to have the reins? But does that then imply that what we do day to day in our dojangs is boring? Surely that further implies we hold our arts in low esteem? ps. I'm being devil's advocate here but I wonder do you have an opinion?

I'll phrase that as a question. Why do martial artists go to modern martial arts based movies [of the Matrix ilk for example] knowing full well that what's gonna be shown is in no way representational of their art?

And just as a ps. on your second point...

I believe that it will eventually gorge upon itself to the point where it inevitably must collapse. When the smoke clears, the true artists will emerge unscathed, not having taken any part in it while the arts once again fall out of favor with the GP. Then the cycle will begin again. Until then, I surround myself with people of like mind. Many of whom are here. I will train. I will be true to myself. I will uphold the integrity of the arts as best I am able.

Dude!! Read that again. Now that's a movie I'd pay my money to see. Don't tell me, you write screenplays too???

Respects!

 

[Cryozombie]

I say having *for once* a decent, accurate portrayal of Ninpo / Ninjutsu would REALLY allay some of the prejudices, stereotypes and potentially redress the balance in the eyes of the viewing public.

I'd be interested to know from your good self [or any Ninjutsu folk who may be reading] what elements a movie might have that would more accurately portray the many facets of the art.

Respects!

Stephan K Hayes was in one that was SUPPOSED to be realistic, and man, it was HORRIBLE. I dunno. Ive made films (tho mostly short films) and I have contemplated over and over doing a "Real" ninja film, but I dont think it would sell to an audience... our art is so not "dynamic" enough. My instructor often jokes when teaching new movements that if you were the guy on the beach doing the kata, this is what it would look like... and then he is shuffling his feet in these little circles and it looks silly as hell... it just lacks the dynamic presence that a "hollywood" fight has.

 

[Gemini]

I'll phrase that as a question. Why do martial artists go to modern martial arts based movies [of the Matrix ilk for example] knowing full well that what's gonna be shown is in no way representational of their art?

Ah but now you bring my post down a different avenue. Fair enough. Yes. We would all like to be that way. No. We never will be. The wires flinging us around would get all caught up in each other. What a mess.....

But there's a difference in knowing reality from fantasy and appreciating it for what it is. We stick our tongue in our cheek and say "cool". We don't actually believe it. What we do is boring compared to the screen? I spose. If you consider reality boring. But it is real.

And just as a ps. on your second point...

Dude!! Read that again. Now that's a movie I'd pay my money to see. Don't tell me, you write screenplays too???

:EG: Don't try this at home...

I kinda thought the same thing when I wrote it and read it back to myself, so I was gonna just erase it. Problem is, as corny as it sounds, I really do believe it. I know. Loser...

 

[MartialIntent]

Stephan K Hayes was in one that was SUPPOSED to be realistic, and man, it was HORRIBLE. I dunno. Ive made films (tho mostly short films) and I have contemplated over and over doing a "Real" ninja film, but I dont think it would sell to an audience... our art is so not "dynamic" enough. My instructor often jokes when teaching new movements that if you were the guy on the beach doing the kata, this is what it would look like... and then he is shuffling his feet in these little circles and it looks silly as hell... it just lacks the dynamic presence that a "hollywood" fight has.

Now Technopunk, tell me I don't hear you suggesting your art is NOT impressive? That goes for Gemini too!

Just joking...

I mean I hear what you're saying and I think it points to the wider issue that Gemini raised earlier. That as viewers, all most folk want from their martial arts portrayals is the sort of flamboyant stuff that simply cannot happen in the real world. Escapism in other words.

But I think our viewing lust for greater and greater feats of physical impossibility aligned to what I see as a sort of subconscious belief that martial arts in particular bestows an ability to transcend human capabilities, is actually coercing us martial artists into a sort of agreement that what we do *in the real world* can't be interesting without pyrotechnics, wirework and CGI. And we know that's not true because we've seen it [or at least seen the potential for visually exciting practise] in our very own schools.

Can Hollywood ever be pursuaded? Do we care? Should we care?

Personally I say yes to all. I think that while there'll always be a market for superhuman, watch-only-with-brain-in-off-position martial arts portrayals, I think equally that there's a market [largely untapped] for intelligent, realistic, maybe - dare I say it - more idealogical martial arts on our big screens.

All I can say is... Come the revolution in real-world martial arts movies!

Respects!

 

[bydand]

if you were the guy on the beach doing the kata, this is what it would look like... and then he is shuffling his feet in these little circles and it looks silly as hell...

Isn't that the truth! Sounds like our instructors have much the same mindset. This stuff is great, but it dosen't translate well into those fancy moves you see people doing in a park. That is why I like it so much, it is an art that flows from natural movements, and unless you know what you are looking at, very easy to miss the "Martial Arts Moves" you would expect. Excellent in practice, sucks wind to watch!:idunno:

 

[MartialIntent]

Ah but now you bring my post down a different avenue. Fair enough. Yes. We would all like to be that way. No. We never will be. The wires flinging us around would get all caught up in each other. What a mess.....
But there's a difference in knowing reality from fantasy and appreciating it for what it is. We stick our tongue in our cheek and say "cool". We don't actually believe it. What we do is boring compared to the screen? I spose. If you consider reality boring. But it is real.

I feel us, as normal everyday MA practitioners have been forced into these unfair comparisons between the sort of ultra-slick, Oakley'd, eye-candy fight scenes and you or I working through our series of kata, drills, conditioning or whatever which are [almost necessarily] lacking in visual stimulation. But in truth, that's not the comparison to be made. That comparison should be between something that is impossible, often gratuitous and lacking in any moral awareness whatsoever and the practical application of a genuine artform that can have benefits and rewards that can be harvested right throughout one's life. Stated like that to the viewing mass, which is preferable? A no-brainer I'd hope.

False promises - we see them everywhere: your teeth can really be this white; drink this juice and double your lifespan, etc... So all I'm saying is that as martial artists, we're not really competing [if that's the right word] on a level playing field.

Again same question as to Techno, should we care?

I say yes because we know the sort of incredible capabilities our arts can give to us and the rewards of becoming practitioners are lost on those movie-goers and Olympic viewers who may ironically be the ones who might benefit the most from them.

I kinda thought the same thing when I wrote it and read it back to myself, so I was gonna just erase it. Problem is, as corny as it sounds, I really do believe it. I know. Loser...

Not at all, nowadays, more or less all values we hold dearly, when stated honestly, can sound "corny" in the ears of those who have none of their own.

Respects!

 

[Bigshadow]

Now Technopunk, tell me I don't hear you suggesting your art is NOT impressive? That goes for Gemini too!

I really think what he is getting at is some arts tend to lend themselves better to the big screen. Ours doesn't, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't say it lacks dynamics, I would say it lacks the flash and flare that other arts have. With that said, and I am sure Technopunk will agree, when I *see* our art, I see the beauty and the awesome movement, but I didn't see that until I had been training for awhile. I just don't think an audience will see it without training in it for a while.

But I think our viewing lust for greater and greater feats of physical impossibility aligned to what I see as a sort of subconscious belief that martial arts in particular bestows an ability to transcend human capabilities, is actually coercing us martial artists into a sort of agreement that what we do *in the real world* can't be interesting without pyrotechnics, wirework and CGI.

I saw a documentary about martial arts in the movies and from what I gathered is that the martial arts entered entertainment through chinese theatre. According to this documentary, after the persecution of the shaolin monks they ended up in theatre where they hid their art in the movements on stage, through this they were to preserve the art until they were able to freely train again without fear of the state. Anyway, it is through the one of the biggest and oldest chinese theatre companies that Jackie Chan and others (I think Bruce Lee was one too) came from. Movies were a natural progression for the theatre company. Of course they applied what they did on stage to what they did on screen. This of course was a hit with the viewing audience. Following this, the Japanese got into the movie martial arts business and I think the 'Seven Samurai' was their first big success. The main point that I wanted to make was that I think the reason Kung Fu goes so well on screen is that they have had a LONG time to work it out before it ever made it to the big screen.

I guess you can't take just any art and throw it on the screen without a great deal of exageration and improv.