Watered Down Martial Arts

[Sensei Payne]

I'm not sure if you agree with me, or if you're just throwing excuses out there. Either way - Thanks for your response.

I don't think that all TKD schools are that way..I have sparred and trained with several TKD guys that I would never mess with.

It really comes down to SPORT TKD or SELF-DEFENSE TKD

Sport they are just doing whatever they can do to get a point...no protecting the groin..no protecting the face, or back, etc...

Bouncy so they can jump of your guard...if you hit them while they are in the air, UNNESSARY ROUGHNESS POINT DEDUCTED (thats aginst you btw)

Self Defense style is traditional Korean style..and belive me..these guys are brutal. They kick to the head like a boxer punches...you can't take many of them.

 

[Champ-Pain]

BUT how do you view small people with black belts?

??? Strange question. Size has nothing to do with it, if they have the skills. I'm referring to youngsters who are wearing blackbelts and tripping over themselves, due to lack of balance and coordination, lack of skills related to their M/A style, and lack of any fighting ability, what so ever.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I don't think that all TKD schools are that way..I have sparred and trained with several TKD guys that I would never mess with.

It really comes down to SPORT TKD or SELF-DEFENSE TKD

Sport they are just doing whatever they can do to get a point...no protecting the groin..no protecting the face, or back, etc...

Bouncy so they can jump of your guard...if you hit them while they are in the air, UNNESSARY ROUGHNESS POINT DEDUCTED (thats aginst you btw)

Self Defense style is traditional Korean style..and belive me..these guys are brutal. They kick to the head like a boxer punches...you can't take many of them.

1) If you don't have to worry about getting hit in the face - How do you learn how to defend against it?

2) I hit, but I get a point deducted due to "Unnecessary Roughness"... Isn't hitting the other guy the object of it all?

3) Why all that protective gear, if I'm not supposed to get hit? What's it protecting me from?

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it - not at all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1) If you don't have to worry about getting hit in the face - How do you learn how to defend against it?

2) I hit, but I get a point deducted due to "Unnecessary Roughness"... Isn't hitting the other guy the object of it all?

3) Why all that protective gear, if I'm not supposed to get hit? What's it protecting me from?

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it - not at all.

Not sure what angle you're looking at this from, but given that WTF is the largest of the organizations, your criticisms don't really apply. Not sure what ATA sparring is like, but from your previous posts, I will assume that that is what you are familiar with.

In WTF, the head is a target, and I'm pretty sure that the face is too.
WTF sparring is full contact and a point is not scored unless trembling shock is present on impact.
As for the gear, WTF sparring is full contact.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.

Most of which are ATA. WTF schools outnumber ATA overall by a significant margin. Some of what you describe is just Mcdojoism and has nothing to do with the art. Some of what you describe regarding sparring rules are specific to the ATA.

1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.

Burns calories? I know that the bouncing is fairly common in sport TKD. Again, a consequence of the rule set. Not my cup of tea, and when I spar, I don't do it. But I'm also not a high level competitor. Perhaps someone who is can speak with more authority on this one.

2) NO punches allowed.

This is false. WTF allows full contact punches to the body are permitted. Same as in kyokushin. ITF allows more hand techniques than that if I'm not mistaken.

3) Hands held down low.

A consequence of the rule set. To be fair, though, that is where your hands are most of the time.

4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.

Cannot speak for other arts, but KKW/WTF students under fifteen do not receive a dan, but a pum grade and are not supposed to wear the black belt. In the US, however, this seems largely ignored. A training moment perhaps?

5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.

While I hate this too, this is not art specific. I've seen it in schools of many arts. Sadly.

6) 100 lbs of protective gear.

Actually, about five.

7) Board breaking...

... How does breaking boards make you a Martial Artist, and/or help you win a match or any other kind of fight? It's nothing more than a marketing tool, used in order to make the students feel good about themselves - to keep them coming back, and to collect a hefty fee from the parents, on a regular basis.

I think that it has become that in some, or even many schools.

But the purpose of breaking is to test correct technique, not to win matches. Assuming that actual boards are used, incorrect technique will prevent the student from attaining a clean break.

There are a lot of arguments that I have heard against breaking, and none of them have to do with commercialization. Some people feel that it is counterproductive, others say that they ended up with arthritis as a result of years of doing it.

Daniel

 

[frank raud]

Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.

Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:

My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:

So if you(and presumably your instructors taughts other students the same way) and other instructors are teaching the whole of the art, while carefully explaining that certain techniques are for self defense applications, and not for competition, how is judo watered down? Apparently all the techniques are being shown in their proper application.

Why no Kani Basami? Especially with such an emphatic NO?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.

1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
2) NO punches allowed.
3) Hands held down low.
4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.
5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.
6) 100 lbs of protective gear.
7) Board breaking...

... How does breaking boards make you a Martial Artist, and/or help you win a match or any other kind of fight? It's nothing more than a marketing tool, used in order to make the students feel good about themselves - to keep them coming back, and to collect a hefty fee from the parents, on a regular basis.

I dont know where you get the idea that there is no punching. In both ITF and WTF tkd punching is a legal technique in sparring, and only scores if it connects with "trembling shock", ie they punch hard. Olympic sparring is also full contact, with knockouts and extra points for head kicks. I dont consider a hogu, head gear, and foot guards as "100 lbs of protective gear", particularly in a "full contact" sparring match. Also, in the WTF, which is the largest tkd org on earth, there are no 10 year old black belts, you have to be 15 or 16 from memory to get a black belt. I think you are basing all your assumptions on the ATA which on a world wide scale would make up a tiny % of all tkdists.

 

[tinker1]

??? Strange question. Size has nothing to do with it, if they have the skills. I'm referring to youngsters who are wearing blackbelts and tripping over themselves, due to lack of balance and coordination, lack of skills related to their M/A style, and lack of any fighting ability, what so ever.

I probably was thinking about the child black belt thread when I wrote this...

I've seen many kids with black belts. Some have been as you described. Others DEFINITELY not so. These later ones were highly skilled, coordinated, limber, smart, and fast as lightening.

I've also seen adults with black belts that fit your description above. Limited balance and coordination, no flexibility, stiff as an old dead branch.

As to the skill of TKD practitioners, I think it's pretty much like anything else.. everyone's an individual. They come to training with a certain genetic potential and a certain innate mind set. Some people will never be very flexible or quick or strong. Some people have a disposition against pushing themselves hard.

My personal belief is that the ones that don't push themselves should not earn a Dan rank. (unless that changes)

Sometimes though, the naturally talented ones don't really push themselves - because they've never had to.. things just come easy for them. Sometimes that's a curse, because what they developed came easy to them and so they place less value on it. There have been times when I've questioned whether I should test a physically talented student for Dan, because I questioned their mental toughness. Having mental toughness is a huge part of earning that rank level (in my opinion).

On the other hand, I've had students that really came into training without much natural physical talent. But they pushed themselves HARD. They made up for their deficiencies by developing other talents. Fighting intelligence for example - this can make up for a lack of speed and flexibility. My best students were this way.

In part, what you speak of could be a result of commercialization of the arts. It's expensive to open and maintain a training studio. Garage / basement / back-of-restaurant training studios are a thing of the past.

Rent of commercial property is extremely high (even these days). Mats, training bags, focus mitts, etc etc etc - are all costly, so just setting up and equipping a training studio can run into the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. As an instructor you have to create a "corporate veil" via a LLC or S-type corp, and purchase liability insurance. All this before you even start working at attracting students.

So, considering all those expenses.. how many students do you need to just break even? And if you want to make a living running a martial arts studio as a business, how many students do you need to afford a place to live, a car to drive, and food to eat?

It would certainly be lovely to be wealthy enough to only take on a few students - the dedicated ones that really put in the work. But at the end of the day, none of us can afford to do that. So we attract as many bodies as we can, in hopes that some of them at least will be a pleasure to teach.

You need those warm bodies signing on and training just so you can keep the lights on. We hope that out of those masses we will encounter a few that will possess the mental and physical skills and disposition to make it to Dan rank. Of the rest, we hope we can teach them something of value that enhances their life enough to make a difference.

Due to the volume of students necessary to stay in business, I think we all make compromises. Personally I've never promoted anyone to Dan rank that I was not proud of. I've never promoted anyone to Dan rank that I did not completely believe was worthy of that rank. HOWEVER I have seen Master Koo do that.

I suppose that falls into the category of "necessary evil" for some.

Sorry for the rambling post.

 

[Champ-Pain]

So if you(and presumably your instructors taughts other students the same way) and other instructors are teaching the whole of the art, while carefully explaining that certain techniques are for self defense applications, and not for competition, how is judo watered down? Apparently all the techniques are being shown in their proper application.

Why no Kani Basami? Especially with such an emphatic NO?

Points:

1) I'm the only Judo Instructor in my area (and my bro) that I know of, that teach young children - SUBMISSIONS - of any kind... only BJJ instructors do so as well. NONE teach Morote Gari, Kata Guruma, Kouchi Stemi, or any other technique which may require and/or has the remote possibility of grabbing or even touching below the opponents belt - "HonsakuMake". If you do it in practice - you do it in competition - they say... I don't listen.

2) I refuse to teach a technique which is just as capable of injuring myself during application - as it is of injuring my opponent. Besides, it's NOT very practical in a street fight, either.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I dont know where you get the idea that there is no punching. In both ITF and WTF tkd punching is a legal technique in sparring, and only scores if it connects with "trembling shock", ie they punch hard. Olympic sparring is also full contact, with knockouts and extra points for head kicks. I dont consider a hogu, head gear, and foot guards as "100 lbs of protective gear", particularly in a "full contact" sparring match. Also, in the WTF, which is the largest tkd org on earth, there are no 10 year old black belts, you have to be 15 or 16 from memory to get a black belt. I think you are basing all your assumptions on the ATA which on a world wide scale would make up a tiny % of all tkdists.

Points well made - Thanks, I'm starting to understand.

 

[Sensei Payne]

JudoChampion...I have to admit I'm partial to hitting submissions off the back of my opponents. A lot of local Judo players don't have or expect much of a submission game. That said, we roll too. Locally, we're known for our ne-waza.



There is literally no such system as Sport TKD. Even Olympic athletes are KKW TaeKwonDo black belts. KKW TKD is no less "real" than ITF or whatever other organization one chooses to represent. I also feel the need to point out that I don't know a single "hard core" TKD practitioner, as you put it, who trains half as hard as I do. I'm in the gym five days a week and the dojang at least four, and I do it to get better at full contact fighting. I think how hard one works determines how hardcore you are, not the fact you don't compete or think competition is silly.

And before you jump on me, no, I'm not particularly hardcore. I'm a local competitor.

There is a difference in training for Sport and Training for Self Defense...Sport, your looking for that point...Defense..your looking to protect yourself the best you can.

I have sparred with different practitioners of TKD..those who trained for Points or Life Protection...and trust me..there is a difference..it comes down to "Intent", instead of style.

 

[Champ-Pain]

There is a difference in training for Sport and Training for Self Defense...Sport, your looking for that point...Defense..your looking to protect yourself the best you can.

Usually, if you excell at the sport part of M/A - you will also do well in defending yourself... and visa versa.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Usually, if you excell at the sport part of M/A - you will also do well in defending yourself... and visa versa.

I disagree...

yes you will be physically fit from the sport karate...and yeah, its a great work out..

But there is a HUGE difference in training to get a point and training to knock the other guy down...

when your in the heat of the moment..your training takes over...and if you trained to do a jumping back hand to get that point and then stop...prepare to take a beat down..also in Life protection, there is NO PADDING.

Your self Defense is WHAT you PRACTICE.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I disagree...

yes you will be physically fit from the sport karate...and yeah, its a great work out..

But there is a HUGE difference in training to get a point and training to knock the other guy down...

when your in the heat of the moment..your training takes over...and if you trained to do a jumping back hand to get that point and then stop...prepare to take a beat down..also in Life protection, there is NO PADDING.

Your self Defense is WHAT you PRACTICE.

I'm not a fan of Karate, and have never trained in any style of the "Empty Hand" - so I wasn't really even thinking about Karate, when I made my observation. I was referring to JUDO, BJJ, WRESTLING and other Grappling styles. I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.

 

[Sensei Payne]

I'm not a fan of Karate, and have never trained in any style of the "Empty Hand" - so I wasn't really even thinking about Karate, when I made my observation. I was referring to JUDO, BJJ, WRESTLING and other Grappling styles. I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.

Ok, but again I must throw up the Red Flag...if you practice within the Rules, then you are going to do that in Real Life situations..Someone looking to hurt you for real isn't going to care about rules.

I see all kinds of issues with MMA styles, they set themselves up for failure..laying your leg over someones face is just going to get you bitten...Not covering your groin is gonna get you popped..in the groin..etc etc..

Removing yourself from the rules is the only way you can truely become "Prepared" for real life situations.

Don't get me wrong, its all a good work out and a lot of MMA style fighters are is AWESOME shape...but right now we are talking about technique, intent, and fighting style.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Ok, but again I must throw up the Red Flag...if you practice within the Rules, then you are going to do that in Real Life situations..Someone looking to hurt you for real isn't going to care about rules.

I see all kinds of issues with MMA styles, they set themselves up for failure..laying your leg over someones face is just going to get you bitten...Not covering your groin is gonna get you popped..in the groin..etc etc..

Removing yourself from the rules is the only way you can truely become "Prepared" for real life situations.

Don't get me wrong, its all a good work out and a lot of MMA style fighters are is AWESOME shape...but right now we are talking about technique, intent, and fighting style.

I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...

... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.

One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.

 

[Sensei Payne]

I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...

... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.

One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.

Over the years...yeah, I can see you being able to turn the Self- Defense on and off like that, but a student that has less than 10 years under his or her belt..shouldn't be fooled..Sport is different than Real Life situations...in your MANY years of Judo, your able to dictate the difference...a Novice...and by Novice I disreguard belt rank, should train to what they are planning on doing with it..either sport or Self defense.

 

[MJS]

Indeed. Agree completely.

Well, really worth something is open to interpretation. If they join for fitness and become fit, then their training has the worth that they sought. If they have their kids in the class in order for them to learn greater discipline and to help them develop as people, then again, the training has the worth that was sought.

Will it have any worth if the student enters open competition or should need to defend themselves? That is another question. Do they care if it has worth in that regard? Also another question.

Daniel

True, and you're right....that can be looked at, a few different ways. But, on the other hand, should the instructor of the school, be calling what he does, self defense? Instead of calling his school Joes school of Sd, Joes school of Kenpo, TKD, etc., should it be, Joes school of cardio fitness? Again, you're right, this can be looked at many ways, but if someone walks in, looking for one thing, it isnt right to give them something else. OTOH, nothing says that person couldnt walk out as soon as he sees what the school is like.

But, this IMO, kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier....if you have 90% of the pop. looking for A and 10% looking for B, when it comes down to the $$$, its possible the school owner may cave to the more watered down version to suit the majority.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Over the years...yeah, I can see you being able to turn the Self- Defense on and off like that, but a student that has less than 10 years under his or her belt..shouldn't be fooled..Sport is different than Real Life situations...in your MANY years of Judo, your able to dictate the difference...a Novice...and by Novice I disreguard belt rank, should train to what they are planning on doing with it..either sport or Self defense.

I was NOT always a blackbelt with 40 years of Martial Arts experience - and even as a novice - I always knew the difference between "beating" and/or "beating up" my opponent... both of which I did, fairly frequently.

 

[Tez3]

I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...

... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.

One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.

I say this about MMA fighters and get told that it's complete rubbish, that they fight with rules and a ref and can't get out of the rules mindset. I point out that I've seen MMA fighters get out of that mindset pdq but am then told 'well they are the exception'. It's something I find very frustrating that some cannot accept that you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.