MMA is the most traditional martial art

[Oily Dragon]

Fun fact, Sparta was the only place in Greece where pankration competition allowed eye gouging and biting.

Somebody told me that once while we were watching Meet the Spartans, which is so bad except for the dude who plays Leonidas, who nailed parodying Gerard Butler, beard and all.

 

[gerardfoy50]

So, no actual historical connections or proof, just constant parroting Pankration is MMA? Odd that no one else is seeing things your way, perhaps you should say Pankration is MMA a few more times.

Greek olympics had wrestling and boxing. Then they mixed the 2 for pankration bingo mixed martial art

 

[Oily Dragon]

Greek olympics had wrestling and boxing. Then they mixed the 2 for pankration bingo mixed martial art

Pankration was far more brutal than MMA.

We know a lot about the traditional practices because of steles like this one, sculpture, Greek mythology etc.

But to compare it to MMA is like comparing mini golf and actual golf. Sure it's a mix of arts (not just boxing and wrestling either), but MMA is built on a set of rules that are way different from old world Pankration.

Also, the refs were armed with rods to beat contenders for breaking rules (no biting, no gouging, except in Sparta where that was considered cool).

Nobody does pankration anymore in the traditional sense. If they do, it's probably illegal and underground.

 

[gerardfoy50]

So, no actual historical connections or proof, just constant parroting Pankration is MMA? Odd that no one else is seeing things your way, perhaps you should say Pankration is MMA a few more times.

That's the key, no PRIDE and TRADITION involve, just the best way to win. It is so common even people open to MMA, still they STUCK in finding what's in their style to counter an attack INSTEAD of learning from MMA the most effective way to counter.

We have long discussion about how to counter a simple SHOOT. Instead of using the MOST EFFECTIVE "SPRAW" in the MMA, People rack their head looking into their own style how to move the stance, how to do this and that to counter a SHOOT. TMA get too used to thinking INSIDE the BOX, instead of having an open mind and learn outside the box.

That's why there are so many videos trashing CMA and TMA and SO MANY examples of MMA really kicked the butt of them. SADLY, they can't hear it, it's beyond their comprehension. BECAUSE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST. It become a running JOKE of TMA and CMA. Just go on youtube.

MMA improves everyday while the rest stuck in few centuries ago.

When I was a tkd white belt I would ask how to use certain moves outside they would say dont use this for a real fight. But it’s traditional so we do it

 

[gerardfoy50]

Pankration was far more brutal than MMA.

We know a lot about the traditional practices because of steles like this one, sculpture, Greek mythology etc.

View attachment 29336

To compare it to MMA is like comparing mini golf and actual golf.

Also, the refs were armed with rods to beat contenders for breaking rules (no biting, no gouging, except in Sparta where that was considered cool).

Nobody does pankration anymore in the traditional sense. If they do, it's probably illegal and underground.

Like Olympic judo is a watered down version of the original

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Greek olympics had wrestling and boxing. Then they mixed the 2 for pankration bingo mixed martial art

Ok. And where's your evidence that pankration continued to modern times?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Like Olympic judo is a watered down version of the original

How so? It's different in the sense that it follows rules because it's a sport, but that doesn't mean it's watered down.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Ok. And where's your evidence that pankration continued to modern times?

Not pankration, but MMA same thing different name remember we’re talking about a 3000 year period w the civilisation being almost complete wiped out

 

[Oily Dragon]

Like Olympic judo is a watered down version of the original

Well, yes and no.

Olympic judo is still very good judo, and still involves learning a great deal of the art before you'd get to that level.

I sort of get your point that it's not the same but still, MMA is a modern construct based on mixing traditional martial arts to cover all bases.

Pankration often involved competitors dying, and if you killed the other dude, you won by TKO. If you bit the other dude in Athens, the refs would beat you senseless.

Little different.

Who living today can claim Pankration lineage to ancient Greece? Nobody.

 

[gerardfoy50]

How so? It's different in the sense that it follows rules because it's a sport, but that doesn't mean it's watered down.

kicks leg grabs fist strikes leg locks, all part of the original judo, like eye gouging in pankration.

 

[drop bear]

Curious as to how old Vale tudo is.

 

[Oily Dragon]

And now that I think of it, the oldest verifiable living martial arts lineages are only what...800 years or so. CMA lineages only go back to the 12th/13th century or so, when monks actually began recording their lineages in written record. The 35 or so generations of Shaolin, only cover half of the temple's history.

Muay Thai lineages are so young, I think the # there is like 4 or 5 generations at most (back to the first three Muen), the true history of Muay (Boran, Thai) is steeped in mystery to this day. Even though the arts that make it up (dancing, fighting) go back to ancient Siam, what we see as Muay today is pretty new (little over 100 years)...there's such slim historical evidence for Muay Thai, historians still struggle to piece it's real story together.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Curious as to how old Vale tudo is.

Really young, 20th century Brazilian circus fighting.

But also based on much older South American and African arts like N'golo, ritual fighting which influenced Capoeira and others, brought over by the Portuguese slave trade. Who knows how many generations, impossible to trace. N'golo is really really old but has almost no written history at all and was first pieced together in the 1960s I think, by historians.

Believe that illustration below is depiction of N'golo. You can't get much older than African traditions.

 

[frank raud]

Greek olympics had wrestling and boxing. Then they mixed the 2 for pankration bingo mixed martial art

I know this is hard to conceive, no one is disagreeing about what pankration consisted (note the use of the past tense)of. People are questioning (repeatedly) the continuous , it has always been there, MMA is the oldest martial art line you keep parroting. Mixing two or more martial arts does not make magically make MMA. Judo is largely a mix of Kito ryu and Tenshin ryu. Does that mean Judo is MMA? Even if the rules, the judging and the techniques were exactly the same between Pankration and MMA (they are not), it would be that MMA is a historical recreation (it is not) of Pankration.

 

[frank raud]

kicks leg grabs fist strikes leg locks, all part of the original judo, like eye gouging in pankration.

You mean most of the techniques that the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, decided were too dangerous to practice in randori, so he preserved them in kata? Kata that is still studied at most Judo schools today? Heck, there are even international kata competitions.

 

[gerardfoy50]

You mean most of the techniques that the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, decided were too dangerous to practice in randori, so he preserved them in kata? Kata that is still studied at most Judo schools today? Heck, there are even international kata competitions.

takedowns were in judo Olympic but no longer,

 

[gerardfoy50]

I know this is hard to conceive, no one is disagreeing about what pankration consisted (note the use of the past tense)of. People are questioning (repeatedly) the continuous , it has always been there, MMA is the oldest martial art line you keep parroting. Mixing two or more martial arts does not make magically make MMA. Judo is largely a mix of Kito ryu and Tenshin ryu. Does that mean Judo is MMA? Even if the rules, the judging and the techniques were exactly the same between Pankration and MMA (they are not), it would be that MMA is a historical recreation (it is not) of Pankratit

I know this is hard to conceive, no one is disagreeing about what pankration consisted (note the use of the past tense)of. People are questioning (repeatedly) the continuous , it has always been there, MMA is the oldest martial art line you keep parroting. Mixing two or more martial arts does not make magically make MMA. Judo is largely a mix of Kito ryu and Tenshin ryu. Does that mean Judo is MMA? Even if the rules, the judging and the techniques were exactly the same between Pankration and MMA (they are not), it would be that MMA is a historical recreation (it is not) of Pankration.

Use of the word parrot in such a derogatory manner is speciest #plm

 

[frank raud]

takedowns were in judo Olympic but no longer,

Congratulations. By ignoring the word "most", you have totally invalidated my comment. I must concede to your obviously superior knowledge of martial arts history.

 

[frank raud]

Use of the word parrot in such a derogatory manner is speciest #plm

You may want to try replying "IT'S COMMON SENSE". it seems to be as effective as anything you've posted.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Congratulations. By ignoring the word "most", you have totally invalidated my comment. I must concede to your obviously superior knowledge of martial arts history.

most gracious of you