Watering Down The Arts

[Explorer]

Interesting discussion folks. Statistics may have something to do with the watering down. After our 20s (here in the US) the incidents of personal assault begin to drop. For men in their 40s the line is nearly straight down ... with instances of personal assault dropping ... um ... violently. hmmm.

Anyway. It makes me think that adults with families have statistically fewer needs to defend themselves and therefore, require less stringent training.

All that being said. There are times and places that one might expect that the chances for assault are elevated.

Of course, I train in self defense JUST IN CASE I'm the 50 year old on the wrong side of the stats!

 

[Hand Sword]

As I see these discussions, and watch the classes of these representatives, I seem to notice one funny thing. Watered down or not, the same strikes, kicks, stances, blocks are taught. It's the focus of these attributes that are different in the schools.

Unfortunately, the arts have achieved soccer mom status here. It's about making money, day care, a good workout, etc... The people and the personalities in the dojos are much different now, and will remain that way. The Genie is out of the bottle.

 

[exile]

It makes me think that adults with families have statistically fewer needs to defend themselves and therefore, require less stringent training.

This could well be true, although there's always the risk of being...

the 50 year old on the wrong side of the stats!

Still, I suspect that the far greater risk to that 50 year old is cardiovascular disease induced by too much intake and too little outgo. Excess abdominal fat and its systemic correlates have probably killed millions more people than thugs throwing roundhouses at someone else's glass jaw.

But here's a thought that occurred to me recently in a totally different context (reading something about genetics, actually): the phenomenon of heterosis, or 'hybrid vigor', is familiar in biology and seems to be an important constraint shaping human perceptions of sexual attractiveness (I think there was an MT thread which linked to some interesting data on this). The overall idea is that repeated concentration from a limited selection of genes is more likely to lead to the emergence of lethal recessives in a population, weakening the breeding groups possibly to the point where they cease to be viable, an outcome which can be avoided by bringing in novel genes (outbreeding). Purebred domestic animals have notoriously shorter lifespans than mixed breeds for example. Might the same kind of thing apply to martial arts?

My idea is that a certain (maybe small amount of) cross-mixing of techniques amongst MA might well keep the 'root' MA healthier, in the same way that keeping the gene pool open is a mainstay of animal breeders who are going for maximum robustness and longevity—aka general health—of the species in question. Not a wholesale merging of techs, but the systematic informing of techs in one art by considering applications, or setups, in another art. This is one reason why I'm really interested in Combat Hapkido, even though its overall methodology is somewhat different from that of TKD—it seems a really good fit for TKD along the lines I've been talking about.

I don't view this kind of controlled hybridization as dilution, btw, but the opposite—a strengthening of the stock. And after all, the karate that was the foundation of TKD was built—in Okinawa—on precisely this kind of synthesis of techs. I'd love to bet high that any effective MA you look at has precisely the same kind of mixed hybrid ancestry. Going obsessively for technical 'purity' at this late stage of the game seems both futile and shortsighted.

 

[Brian S]

The watering down is due to what the general population wants. They don't don't want real karate. They want an afterschool program with lots of goodies(belts,trophies,patches,certificates,etc.) to boost little Johnny's self esteem.
If they were given reak karate little Johnny would quit after the first class and the school would go broke. ALL HAIL THE McDoJO's!! They have won,like it or not.

 

[MJS]

Absolutely and an amen, brother to that! Why would you?

I guess that some people would say that the personal protection skills are secondary to personal fitness, sport, fullfillment and spiritual growth, etc. That is just my guess.

And unfortunately, when those types get paired up with someone who is more serious, it takes away, IMO, from the more serious student. If those people really have no interest in the arts on a serious level, join a gym.

Agreed

And there is watering down for reasons that I have seen such as you can fool yourself into thinking you are a great master, just look at all the “forms” I know and there is watering down to gain more students to make more money because real live training can hurt and no one wants to get hurt you know. And of course there are other reasons as well. My main style Taiji is watered down by people not taking the time to actually learn it and combining it with something else or watering down by simple forms collecting for health purposes or dance purposes or again the I am a master because I know so many forms purposes as well.

But, believe it or not, this is leading to a question.

Is CMA watered down by Sanda (non-sport)? I train Sanda (and very traditinal Taijiquan), Sanda is effective it is from a multitude of CMA styles but it has removed the forms and the qigong training therefore would it be considered watered down, or just a logical (or illogical) progression? Or something new as far as CMA is concerned?

Good points. Unfortunately it seems to me, that sometimes its hard to avoid. You have teacher A that learned the art in its true form. He teaches student B who removes a few things. He then teaches student C, who is now missing things that B removed. D, E, F, G remove bits and pieces, so by the time it gets to student X, whats left?

 

[MJS]

The watering down is due to what the general population wants. They don't don't want real karate. They want an afterschool program with lots of goodies(belts,trophies,patches,certificates,etc.) to boost little Johnny's self esteem.
If they were given reak karate little Johnny would quit after the first class and the school would go broke. ALL HAIL THE McDoJO's!! They have won,like it or not.

Sad but true. But, the wake up call is going to be when little Johnny tries to defend himself and ends up getting the crap beat out of him. Mom and Dad will most likely be scratching their heads wondering why he didn't do better, and where all their money went after all these lessons.

All I can say is thank God there are still some schools out there that don't have the McDojo mentality and offer fries and a coke with the belt.

 

[FearlessFreep]

You have teacher A that learned the art in its true form. He teaches student B who removes a few things. He then teaches student C, who is now missing things that B removed. D, E, F, G remove bits and pieces, so by the time it gets to student X, whats left?

You know, in music, musicians of each generation take what was done in the previous generation and grow beyond it, building on what they learn and coming up with new ideas and inspirations

Actually, that's true in everything from physics and math to architecture and mechanical engineering to football and baseball. We learn new things, break new records, build things unimaginable two generations ago


Why is Martial Arts seemingly the singular activity in human experience that starts off 'perfect' with one person and goes downhill from there??

 

[MJS]

You have teacher A that learned the art in its true form. He teaches student B who removes a few things. He then teaches student C, who is now missing things that B removed. D, E, F, G remove bits and pieces, so by the time it gets to student X, whats left?

You know, in music, musicians of each generation take what was done in the previous generation and grow beyond it, building on what they learn and coming up with new ideas and inspirations

Actually, that's true in everything from physics and math to architecture and mechanical engineering to football and baseball. We learn new things, break new records, build things unimaginable two generations ago


Why is Martial Arts seemingly the singular activity in human experience that starts off 'perfect' with one person and goes downhill from there??

Good question, and IMO, you're 100% correct. Every day, things and improved upon. I can only guess that its because people look at something, and feel that its no longer useful in todays world, so it gets dropped. Why train with a bo staff when nobody walks around with one. Good point, however, a broom handle or short stick can be substituted for the longer bo. Many things can also be translated to empty hand. Take Arnis. There are stick vs. stick disarms. Now, I don't walk around with rattan sticks, but those same disarms, with a slight modification, can be done empty hand vs. stick, while keeping the same general idea.

Personally, rather than dropping something, I think those things that are viewed as 'old' should be looked at closer and perhaps modified for what you may find in todays modern world.

Just my .02

 

[Monadnock]

You have teacher A that learned the art in its true form. He teaches student B who removes a few things. He then teaches student C, who is now missing things that B removed. D, E, F, G remove bits and pieces, so by the time it gets to student X, whats left?

You know, in music, musicians of each generation take what was done in the previous generation and grow beyond it, building on what they learn and coming up with new ideas and inspirations

Actually, that's true in everything from physics and math to architecture and mechanical engineering to football and baseball. We learn new things, break new records, build things unimaginable two generations ago


Why is Martial Arts seemingly the singular activity in human experience that starts off 'perfect' with one person and goes downhill from there??

Some people would argue that Rock and Roll is a watering down of Classical Music, or not even music at all, just noise.

It is an evolution of music that the people wanted but does not necessarily sound like its roots.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And unfortunately, when those types get paired up with someone who is more serious, it takes away, IMO, from the more serious student. If those people really have no interest in the arts on a serious level, join a gym.

Exactly and I have run into this and it is extremely frustrating. (and again agreeing with Brian as well just being more verbose about it this time)

I will NOT go into that entire long story again but I was working on a 2 person form with a self proclaimed master (by form count) that was much more interested in the dance and self delusion than actual work on application.

Good points. Unfortunately it seems to me, that sometimes its hard to avoid. You have teacher A that learned the art in its true form. He teaches student B who removes a few things. He then teaches student C, who is now missing things that B removed. D, E, F, G remove bits and pieces, so by the time it gets to student X, whats left?

In the case of Police Military (P/M) Sanda you are left with a quick way to learn how to hurt people real bad. But is that to be considered watering down CMA? I do not know. But if for no other reason you are now calling it Sanda not Long Fist or Tong Bei or Taiji or Wing Chun therefore I tend to feel it is not watering it down but I would not be willing to get into an argument to prove that either way at this point.

But in the case of Taiji plus another MA and still calling it taiji I do believe you are watering it down.

 

[Shuto]

I believe that modern society as a whole is a big factor in the dilution of traditional arts. It is actually pretty easy these days to go thru your entire life without ever having to defend yourself. .

Times have indeed changed. I feel more threatened by heart disease than physical violence.

Also, if I were attacked there's a good chance that I would be confronted by someone with a firearm. Empty hand techniques are OK if that's all you have but personally, I consider them a last resort when going against a firearm.

 

[Rich Parsons]

So, I guess the question begs...why do people find it necessary to water something down? I mean, if the goal is self defense, which I'd assume that anyone who trains, that should be the main goal, you would want to learn something effective, not something that has little chance of working.

I can teach stick and knife and empty hand techniques for my personal skill set and timing. And if the student walks in and has to react to my timing they most likely will get hit. They will get tired of not "learning" and move on. So as good instructors they break it down and isolate a move. Then they slow the movement down to teach the timing.

The problem lies in that trying to teach many in a line allows for large errors.

We have all seen the one studnet that goes home and trains what they learned and comes back and has it better. They may need further correction or guidance but they are doing "EXTRA" at home to make themselves better. Not jsut riding through the class.

In the sports end you have a lot less people who can clearly qualify to enter the ring. And most of it is around conditioning. If you are not in 110% physical fitness it does not matter how good you are. (* Of course there are exceptions *) A person can be good at an area of stand up or grappling and be ok in the other areas but have a strong will and determination and can take a punch and ignores pain. This person will succeed in the sport aspect of it.

The average person will not. Even with SParring with Gloves and controlled movement, most of these people do not take it to the level of possible injury. Most instructors do not wish to do this either to aovid getting pulled into court. The amount of full contact clubs that closed in the late 70's because of the cost of insurance in SW Mi was a large percentage. And those that survived changed how they trained.

In sports people train for a higher contact and most understand and even expect injuries.

More later.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

For me, it's simple: Kung Fu means hard work. You get what you put in. This includes the intellectual effort. Train it the way you'll use it. I train for self defense.

 

[Guardian]

Well, I have seen some very interesting and quite insightful responses here on this one.

The Martial Arts and the other Self-Defense ways discussed here today are two separate entities, I have seen some say that pure Self-Defense is just a watered down version of the Martial Arts, you cannot in my view relate the two together, they have different functions and yet, they have the same functions, one dwelves deeper of course then the other, but is no more or less important then the other one depending on what you want it for.

Bodyguards, bouncers, personal security experts train in their respective fields for what they need it for, the Martial Arts also do this, but dwelve deeper (sometimes) into their arts (traditional). It's not the power or unlocking the software or anything like that in my view (which might be simplistic in nature, but that's how I am).

Each has it's place and each does a function, now what you want from that function, to each their own.

 

[thardey]

I started my "martial" study as an underweight football lineman. I learned something extremely valuable: technique often trumps strength. Fortunately for me, most of the strong guys didn't realize that. If they had technique and strength, I would have been toast. But they didn't see the need for it, and so they didn't strive for it. For me it was a matter of survival, from my perspective - sitting across from an ape who weighed twice what I did.

Next I did boxing - now weight wasn't an issue, but I had another problem: My knees were shot from football. I couldn't "dance" around in the ring, but had to go toe-to-toe. I learned another principle: Footwork is king, but a quick combination is queen. From both the above, I learned how to take a hit.

Yeah, I could be a pretty mean brawler at that point, but I could only improve so much with that type of training.

Then I got a chance to try classical fencing, I learned that while a boxer can overwhelm his opponent by a good attack, and proper application of strength, it doesn't work with weapons. If you try that with a seasoned fencer - sword, or empty handed, they use that against you and tear you up. You have to have a good, committed attack, but you have to be smart about it, and not to over-commit. This was where I started to cross into the "higher" stuff that was brought up earlier - the transition for me can be summed up in one word: subtlety. Not "detail", boxing is very detailed and precise, as football can and should be. But neither is in the same world is terms of being subtle.

Next I got into (get ready for this Ballroom dancing! (My knees were healed roughly about this time.) Now the subtlety moved from my hand work to the control of my weight. I learned how a simple shift of my hip can control where I and my partner could go, how rolling from the inside of my foot the the outside changed my options for movement. Again -- subtle.

After all this, I finally started karate! They said I was a natural, but it was only because I already knew how much of a different the subtle movements make, and how much of a mess the subtle mistakes make.

I'm not talking about fine motor skills, those disappear when adrenalin hits. I'm not talking about details, those get forgotten. There's no other word for it than subtlety, and there's no quick way to train it. There's not even a quick way to explain it. The only way to get is endless hours of repetition, until you've eliminated any unhelpful movement.

Subtle:
1 a: delicate elusive <a subtle fragrance> b: difficult to understand or perceive : obscure <subtle differences in sound>2 a: perceptive refined <a writer's sharp and subtle moral sense> b: having or marked by keen insight and ability to penetrate deeply and thoroughly <a subtle scholar>3 a: highly skillful : expert <a subtle craftsman> b: cunningly made or contrived : ingenious4: artful crafty <a subtle rogue>5: operating insidiously <subtle poisons>

 

[Steel Tiger]

So, I guess the question begs...why do people find it necessary to water something down? I mean, if the goal is self defense, which I'd assume that anyone who trains, that should be the main goal, you would want to learn something effective, not something that has little chance of working.

This thread has been a very interesting read so far and I thought it was time I contributed something.

Watering down the arts? It a strange idea isn't it? I honestly don't think anybody sets out to 'water down' their art. The effect comes from interpretation and poor teaching. I have had students that no matter how many times you showed them a technique or movement they simply could not get it right. They were just seeing it completely differently to me. If you add to this slip-shod or lazy teaching then you are going to get something quite different to what you started with.

Even the McDojo boys are not going to their syllabus and saying, "we'll take that out and forget that, and we can do without this." Rather, I think what is happening is that they are adding so much peripheral rubbish that there is no room left for the actual content of the art. so its not so much watered down as pushed aside.

Then they run into other problems. Give the people what they want to get more students but, as Rich pointed out, big classes are prone to suffer from misinterpretation and error simply because the teachers cannot give each student enough individual time.

You can then move into the motivation for learning a martial art in the first place, self defence, fitness, sporting achievement, to be part of a group.

If it is for self defence there are two paths. The first is to seek short, quick highly effective techniques (modern?). The second is to work through a longer syllabus and find those same techniques (traditional). Does this lead to a watering down effect? It might, but it more likely that it will lead to a different school.

What about fitness? Such a pursuit does not need a lesser program to fulfill its needs. The focus is different but the content can be the same.

Sporting achievement can cause some seeming reduction of an art. For example, Olympic TKD does not encourage hand techniques at all, so effeciency would dictate that you not practice them. Most TKD, schools do teach them, even those preparing students for potential Olympic competition. So the sport aspect of an art does not have to lessen the art, unless the participants want it to.

Just wanting to be part of a group can have significant effects on an arts content. This sought of motivation does not place any value on what is being taught.

However, there is an important fact that affects all of what I have said above. Its not the quality of teaching or the material, it is the fascility to progress through the art. If the testing and progression system is working properly then some people will get stuck at low ranks because they have the wrong approach or motivation. This is where the McDojos are really causing a problem. It is too easy to progress to a level where you can go off and teach. If its too easy then the dues haven't been paid and the knowledge hasn't been properly processed.

I honestly think that dodgy testing and progression systems are the root cause of the apparent watering down of martial arts. It allows people who should never teach to be in the position to do just that.

I've gone on a bit here but my only excuse is that I find this a very compelling subject.

 

[Danjo]

This thread has been a very interesting read so far and I thought it was time I contributed something.

Watering down the arts? It a strange idea isn't it? I honestly don't think anybody sets out to 'water down' their art. The effect comes from interpretation and poor teaching. I have had students that no matter how many times you showed them a technique or movement they simply could not get it right. They were just seeing it completely differently to me. If you add to this slip-shod or lazy teaching then you are going to get something quite different to what you started with.

Even the McDojo boys are not going to their syllabus and saying, "we'll take that out and forget that, and we can do without this." Rather, I think what is happening is that they are adding so much peripheral rubbish that there is no room left for the actual content of the art. so its not so much watered down as pushed aside.

Then they run into other problems. Give the people what they want to get more students but, as Rich pointed out, big classes are prone to suffer from misinterpretation and error simply because the teachers cannot give each student enough individual time.

You can then move into the motivation for learning a martial art in the first place, self defence, fitness, sporting achievement, to be part of a group.

If it is for self defence there are two paths. The first is to seek short, quick highly effective techniques (modern?). The second is to work through a longer syllabus and find those same techniques (traditional). Does this lead to a watering down effect? It might, but it more likely that it will lead to a different school.

What about fitness? Such a pursuit does not need a lesser program to fulfill its needs. The focus is different but the content can be the same.

Sporting achievement can cause some seeming reduction of an art. For example, Olympic TKD does not encourage hand techniques at all, so effeciency would dictate that you not practice them. Most TKD, schools do teach them, even those preparing students for potential Olympic competition. So the sport aspect of an art does not have to lessen the art, unless the participants want it to.

Just wanting to be part of a group can have significant effects on an arts content. This sought of motivation does not place any value on what is being taught.

However, there is an important fact that affects all of what I have said above. Its not the quality of teaching or the material, it is the fascility to progress through the art. If the testing and progression system is working properly then some people will get stuck at low ranks because they have the wrong approach or motivation. This is where the McDojos are really causing a problem. It is too easy to progress to a level where you can go off and teach. If its too easy then the dues haven't been paid and the knowledge hasn't been properly processed.

I honestly think that dodgy testing and progression systems are the root cause of the apparent watering down of martial arts. It allows people who should never teach to be in the position to do just that.

I've gone on a bit here but my only excuse is that I find this a very compelling subject.

Yep. I'll go along with what you've said here. We have in this country an educational system that is a mile wide but only an inch deep. Mastery is not required before promotion. Kids are merely exposed to certain concepts before being pushed to the next level. When this happens, memory is greatly lessened and as a result students tend to forget what they have "learned" after a short period of time. So, what we tend to do is to transfer those qualities and expectations to the martial arts and get about the same results as we do with the public school system. How many high school graduates are there now that do not have skills as high as those in the eigth grade 50 years ago?

It all comes down to the basics. If the basics are so solid that they're second nature, then building on them is relatively easy to do. You have a broad and solid base, and thus your tower can be built very high without fear of it falling. If the basics are not there, then you can only go so high without failure.

I think the reason that many find the more strictly self defense systems preferable, is that they have a much more limited curriculum and thus mastery is possible. It's limited due to it's having fewer techniques, but someone that has practiced one kick and one punch a thousand times is going to be better off than the person that has practiced a thousand kicks and punches once.

To master the TMAs is not easy. Never has been. The point is that once it IS mastered (if one ever truly gets there), the results are very impressive.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

*sigh* didn't I just go over this not even a month ago?

If you have found something you enjoy that is giving you what you are after--keep with it.

If you feel something else offers an area you need but aren't getting--go try it.

You like the locks in that jujutsu class? Go sign up. Wanna go do Capoeira just because it looks like fun? Have at. Want the sparring experience an MMA style bout would give you? Call up a gym, explain your situation and arrange one.

What's hard?




Oh and one more thing: I believe the term "TMA" as it is currently used is used to apply to the wrong situation, as the "TMA" schools and the practices they engage in which led to the "watering down" tellner initially brought up, can by no stretch of the wildest imagination be considered "Traditional". Therefore, as "TMA" in it's current usage has come to mean "McDojo" and not true TMA, the entire MMA/TMA comparison is skewed right out of the gate and is stupid. Thank you.

 

[Doc]

Here's a question for you Andrew, and this isn't in response to anything specific that you have said, but rather I would like to see your viewpoint on this. For someone who trains and actively competes in hardcore things like MMA competitions, how long do you think they will last in this endeavor. It seems to me that the focus on competition, with the pounding and beating that I suspect the body takes both in training, and in the ring, at some point there will be an accumulation of injuries that makes one consider retirement as a real option. Maybe at this point he can still practice for fun, and/or coach others, but his own involvement may be drastically reduced. What do you think of these thoughts?

I don't train for competition. I'm just not interested in it, and I am sure I would not do well in it, especially something hardcore like MMA. Instead, I train for self defense, and more strongly, just because I enjoy it. The pounding that my body takes in training is probably much much less than an actively competing MMA guy. But I am confident of the self-defense skills that I have, so I'm not interested in comparing myself to an MMA guy. I recognize that for the duration of their active careers, they are tough dudes, but I also don't believe that the average hooligan out there who might try to mug me is a highly trained MMA guy in the prime of his career. I just don't believe that is the kind of guy I need to worry about defending myself against.

But I also believe that I will be able to be active in my arts well into old age, if I so chose, because I expect to avoid most of the chronic and acute injuries that I suspect an MMA guy experiences. So in this way, I see a TMA as a better choice for long-term, and a perfectly reasonable choice for self-defense provided it is taught by a competent instructor.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this. thanks.

Trying to take my job away, or what? OK, you said it first, so I guess I can't say what I wanted now.

 

[Doc]

*sigh* didn't I just go over this not even a month ago?

If you have found something you enjoy that is giving you what you are after--keep with it.

If you feel something else offers an area you need but aren't getting--go try it.

You like the locks in that jujutsu class? Go sign up. Wanna go do Capoeira just because it looks like fun? Have at. Want the sparring experience an MMA style bout would give you? Call up a gym, explain your situation and arrange one.

What's hard?




Oh and one more thing: I believe the term "TMA" as it is currently used is used to apply to the wrong situation, as the "TMA" schools and the practices they engage in which led to the "watering down" tellner initially brought up, can by no stretch of the wildest imagination be considered "Traditional". Therefore, as "TMA" in it's current usage has come to mean "McDojo" and not true TMA, the entire MMA/TMA comparison is skewed right out of the gate and is stupid. Thank you.

You guys are killing me taking my comments away before I can make them. Man I love this place!