Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Oily Dragon]

But. BJJ pretty much IS the sparring/rolling. There's literally nothing in BJJ that you can do without a partner.

I mean..I guess I could see over time it being aikido-ized into something where it's completely cooperative but would it still be BJJ even?

Is that really true? I haven't trained with BJJ people in a while but their "technical standup" is something I use every time I get out of the pool. I make sure of it, because crawling out of water is hard.

You can fall on your own, get up on your own. As much as I understand jiujitsu, that's the whole point. Please, correct me.

 

[Martial D]

Is that really true? I haven't trained with BJJ people in a while but their "technical standup" is something I use every time I get out of the pool. I make sure of it, because crawling out of water is hard.

You can fall on your own, get up on your own. As much as I understand jiujitsu, that's the whole point. Please, correct me.

Well sure..you could do stand ups and shrimp across the floor for an hour but that's not really BJJ any more than a spark plug is a car.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's been a recurring mantra in these discussions here for years. It always comes down to this when the point in the discussion is reached that X style has no tangible evidence of alive effectiveness. Then it's always "yes but MMA is a sport and X style isn't" and what differentiates the sport from non sport? The rules. Always implicative that something in those rules is preventing X style from being that. It's basically a hand wave.

Yes these convos go in the same direction every time... I’m trying to actively avoid it at this point, there is no nutrition in it, nothing to be gained.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I totally agree. There's video or something on YouTube of that school. I guess they literally just show the holds etc. A lot of famous people train there. It's Machado so he has a whole lineage of people who obviously spar and compete (well), but there must be a market for this now, which my much younger self would never have imagined but my older wiser self saw coming.

When you think about it every art started to degrade in this way. Commercialization.

As far as all the other mentions online about white belts being held back a month, 3 months, etc that also sounds familiar to TMA. Lots of places leave sparring for later on (and not without reason in some cases, safety matters).

But resistance comes first, even before sparring, and keeping resistance out of the hands of new students is a great way to keep students who don't want hard training, but also a great way to lose me.

I don’t let my students spar at first. My reason is that they can’t do much at first, the footwork isn’t there, the timing is off, etc. what do they gain from swinging it out without the skills? I think it just builds bad habits if they do that right off the bat. I’m all for hard sparring, but there has to be a reason and a gain or lesson involved. Most people just fall apart at first. If I move on them the wheels just come right off the cart. It takes time to build something worth a pressure test, otherwise it’s just flailing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t let my students spar at first. My reason is that they can’t do much at first, the footwork isn’t there, the timing is off, etc. what do they gain from swinging it out without the skills? I think it just builds bad habits if they do that right off the bat. I’m all for hard sparring, but there has to be a reason and a gain or lesson involved. Most people just fall apart at first. If I move on them the wheels just come right off the cart. It takes time to build something worth a pressure test, otherwise it’s just flailing.

I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, balance principles, and moving in/out of clinch distance. That's all they get to use, while a partner (me, for at least the first session) brings a steady stream of light-touch attacks. The student's job is to find ways to control distance and angles without hitting or grabbing. This also lets them start getting used to being "in the storm". Over time, the intensity increases, and the intention is for students to keep returning to this drill even when they have the tools to retaliate.

And for the partner, it's a chance to practice staying on the offensive. I've had so many people come to me with a habit of taking turns (I enter, strike, then back off and defend as you do the same - then repeat the cycle). Some (not all) at least have some combos, but they have the habit of backing off for no reason. This offense-only drill makes them practice looking for openings while still attacking.

Of course, even though they'll return to this drill over time, they do progress to sparring, which eventually includes randori (standing grappling) and rolling (ground grappling).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ok yes

I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, balance principles, and moving in/out of clinch distance. That's all they get to use, while a partner (me, for at least the first session) brings a steady stream of light-touch attacks. The student's job is to find ways to control distance and angles without hitting or grabbing. This also lets them start getting used to being "in the storm". Over time, the intensity increases, and the intention is for students to keep returning to this drill even when they have the tools to retaliate.

And for the partner, it's a chance to practice staying on the offensive. I've had so many people come to me with a habit of taking turns (I enter, strike, then back off and defend as you do the same - then repeat the cycle). Some (not all) at least have some combos, but they have the habit of backing off for no reason. This offense-only drill makes them practice looking for openings while still attacking.

Of course, even though they'll return to this drill over time, they do progress to sparring, which eventually includes randori (standing grappling) and rolling (ground grappling).

I definitely do controlled two person drills. I guess I just didn’t label it sparring. Any two punches and a kick then switch partners and switch roles. That’s a common starting point. Lots of two person isometric excercises as well. They always groan their way through those. 6 star is another full contact drill. Conditions the arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, ...

By using footwork to train defense is a good idea. It's also a good idea that you force your students to stand on the ground (not moving an inch), and play defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By using footwork to train defense is a good idea. It's also a good idea that you force your students to stand on the ground (not moving an inch), and play defense.

That's a drill for later, when they have tools for it. In this one, movement is the key - helping them learn not to freeze when they are overwhelmed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's a drill for later, when they have tools for it. In this one, movement is the key - helping them learn not to freeze when they are overwhelmed.

You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.

Those terms mean nothing to me. I'm talking about beginner drills, versus those that work best when the student has tools to use.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.

I thought the topic was sparring strategy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Those terms mean nothing to me. I'm talking about beginner drills, versus those that work best when the student has tools to use.

Fire - move around fast, hard to predict where it will appear next.
Earth - excellent defense. solid connect to the ground, hard to move it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I thought the topic was sparring strategy.

I'm talking about sparring strategy too. After you can detect which strategy that your opponent is using, if you can select the strategy to against him, the fight can be easer.

In one challenge fight, my opponent liked to use long range side kick toward my chest (wood strategy). I used one hand to block his kick, at the same time I drop my elbow on his foot (metal strategy) - metal against wood. When his foot hurt too much and could not kicked me any more, I attacked him. In the whole sparring, I only threw one punch to end that fight.

In one tournament fight, my opponent used a low solid stance with strong defense (earth strategy). he moved in inch by inch. He played 100% defense. No matter how I would attack him, he could block all my kicks/punches. After I backed up outside of the ring twice, I lose that fight. Since then I started to pay attention on fighting strategy. Today if I could fight that guy again, I would just use low roundhouse kick to hurt his legs which is hard to block (wood strategy) - wood against earth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fire - move around fast, hard to predict where it will appear next.
Earth - excellent defense. solid connect to the ground, hard to move it.

Since we're talking about striking-only sparring for beginners in my example, Earth doesn't have a lot of validity in the context. They aren't allowed to use any tools other than movement. Later, when they have tools, either is a valid strategy, though Earth seems like grappling defense, rather than striking defense.

EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.

I believe Kenpo guys like to use the earth strategy. They like to fight in a low horse stance with leading arm drop down in front of their bodies, and back hand cover their faces. If you throw a punch, their leading arm will come up as a ridge hand to your head.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Since we're talking about striking-only sparring for beginners in my example, Earth doesn't have a lot of validity in the context. They aren't allowed to use any tools other than movement. Later, when they have tools, either is a valid strategy, though Earth seems like grappling defense, rather than striking defense.

EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.

If we're talking Wu Xing Earth...I have something to say about that.

By the Hand of Oberon, we're doing this.

After I make lunch.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe Kenpo guys like to use the earth strategy. They like to fight in a low horse stance with leading arm drop down in front of their bodies, and back hand cover their faces. If you throw a punch, their leading arm will come up as a ridge hand to your head.

As an ex-kenpo guy myself, I would say that it is not possible to make a meaningful generalization like this. That was certainly never my go-to. Furthermore, there is no single school of kenpo. Just that coming downstream from Ed Parker has a huge variety. When you skip Ed Parker and go straight to William Chow or James Mitose, the variety is even bigger. And if you add the various other methods that simply use the term Kenpo or Kempo in their description, but have no connection to those already mentioned, the variety is bigger yet.

Kenpo is a very general term, with a broad meaning.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we're talking Wu Xing Earth...I have something to say about that.

By the Hand of Oberon, we're doing this.

After I make lunch.

In MA strategies, we have talked about

- metal overcomes wood.
- wood overcomes earth.

Would like to hear your explanation of

- earth overcomes water.
- water overcomes fire.
- fire overcomes metal.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In MA strategies, we have talked about

- metal overcomes wood.
- wood overcomes earth.

Would like to hear your explanation of

- earth overcomes water.
- water overcomes fire.
- fire overcomes metal.

Chuck, my dieffenbachia explained it thus. He (earth) needs the water, after he gets a certain degree of fire (photosynthesis matters).

Only then, can we rock, and bend metal.

Dieffenbachia.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As an ex-kenpo guy myself, I would say that it is not possible to make a meaningful generalization like this.

My experience in Kenpo karate is limited.

I have sparred with many Kenpo guys in Karate tournaments. I had 2 Kenpo black belts in my lunch time sparring group (I call it "fighting club"). I did sparred with Kenpo instructor Tony Martinez in his Austin Kenpo karate school many years ago (Tony is 10th degree BB master today). I believe Tony is one of Ed Parker's students.

My 1st Kung Fu school was Tony's Kenpo school. He moved to another location. I took over his school.

Home

​