Traditional vs MMA

[Cryozombie]

OKay......from wikipedia ( incase you didnt beleive me)

History of MMA

One of the earliest forms of widespread unarmed combat sports with minimal rules was Greek pankration,

Oh, well, hell, if thats the case, I have to admit I am wrong. MMA is quite older than most other Martial arts. Most of the MMAers ive heard talk about it had talked about how it evolved after seeing how poorly other arts performed in matches like UFC. I was wrong, Im sorry.

My apologys to the MMAers.

I think, knowing now that MMA is actually Pankration makes a lot of sense, Having read a bit about greek wrestling, how it was done, and what occured between the contestants before and after matches, I think I understand the situation better.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh, well, hell, if thats the case, I have to admit I am wrong. MMA is quite older than most other Martial arts. Most of the MMAers ive heard talk about it had talked about how it evolved after seeing how poorly other arts performed in matches like UFC. I was wrong, Im sorry.

My apologys to the MMAers.

I think, knowing now that MMA is actually Pankration makes a lot of sense, Having read a bit about greek wrestling, how it was done, and what occured between the contestants before and after matches, I think I understand the situation better.

I'm not sure you can actually say it comes directly from ancient Greece and Pankration (http://www.answers.com/topic/pankration).

I see nothing that proves a direct lineage so far. But you can say it shares some of the qualities of Pankration. Much the same way Shuaijiao and Prankration share some qualities or Shuaijiao and Judo share qualities, they are similar yes but there is no direct lineage per say.

However Pankration in all of Greece, except Sparta, had only 2 rules “no eye gouging” and “no biting”. In Sparta that was allowed.

I still believe that MMA in its current form is more related to Gracie BJJ and Shootfighting. But Gracie BJJ has its roots in Judo so that too would be somewhat of an influence here as well.

 

[Andrew Green]

MMA has basically always been around, at different times pulling from different specialized arts. Shootfighting, In Japan had nothing to do with BJJ for quite some time. It was Catch wresting based in terms of the grappling.

But throughout history MMA has been there, under different names, and in different places. It's really not that unique of a concept. Yes, BJJ is what did the recent push, and they like to take full credit. But they where not the only ones, or the first ones.

I've also seen a few books on unarmed fighting from Medival / Renniassance Europe that demonstrate what would today be called "MMA".

 

[Xue Sheng]

MMA has basically always been around, at different times pulling from different specialized arts. Shootfighting, In Japan had nothing to do with BJJ for quite some time. It was Catch wresting based in terms of the grappling.

But throughout history MMA has been there, under different names, and in different places. It's really not that unique of a concept. Yes, BJJ is what did the recent push, and they like to take full credit. But they where not the only ones, or the first ones.

I've also seen a few books on unarmed fighting from Medival / Renniassance Europe that demonstrate what would today be called "MMA".

And, so far anyway, from what I am reading shootfighting was, at least in Japan considered MMA. I believe any other relation to it came in the form of the Gracie Challenge of BJJ.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

It's interesting basically how long this argument has been going on. Here it is in 1599:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

The old vs. the new. And both had points. This is just one side of the argument back then.

Jeff

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am not so sure that you can tie current MMA all the way back to Pankration. That seems a little far fetched to me. Current MMA can basically be tied to Jiujitsu, Judo, Shooto, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling. That is how I kind've see it. Now having said that these disciplines have a long and storied history and MMA in it's current form is very fun to not only watch but also to practice. :ultracool

It would be neat though to travel back and see with what and how the ancient greeks and romans trained. :shrug:

The lineage is much easier on the Japanese side because techniques have been carried on and taught in a systematized manner. Therefore we have a very good idea how they trained. Whereas Modern Greco-Roman wrestling I am sure is far, far, far differant from what Pankaration was.
Just my opinion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I guess an argument could be made that JKD was an MMA.

Actually from what I have researched, and this is very early in researching MMA, there is a street version, non-sport and many of those do actually come out of or a related to JKD in some way.

I am not so sure that you can tie current MMA all the way back to Pankration. That seems a little far fetched to me. Current MMA can basically be tied to Jiujitsu, Judo, Shooto, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling. That is how I kind've see it. Now having said that these disciplines have a long and storied history and MMA in it's current form is very fun to not only watch but also to practice.

Very true I see no direct lineage to pankration and it is much more related to what you have listed

It would be neat though to travel back and see with what and how the ancient greeks and romans trained.



The lineage is much easier on the Japanese side because techniques have been carried on and taught in a systematized manner. Therefore we have a very good idea how they trained. Whereas Modern Greco-Roman wrestling I am sure is far, far, far differant from what Pankaration was.

Just my opinion.

Pankration was vicious by today’s standards you won by knockout, submission or death.

As I said 2 rules no eye gouging no biting unless it was Spartan than there were no rules

 

[Andrew Green]

I am not so sure that you can tie current MMA all the way back to Pankration. That seems a little far fetched to me.

As a historical chain I would absolutely agree, very far fetched.

But as the beginning of showing that the style of fighting is nothing new, has always been around to some degree, and is not simply the pdoduct of a Televised event, it's part of the story.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

As a historical chain I would absolutely agree, very far fetched.

But as the beginning of showing that the style of fighting is nothing new, has always been around to some degree, and is not simply the pdoduct of a Televised event, it's part of the story.

Hey Andrew,

I always like your posts!

However, I do not think that MMA needs to be linked to Pankration. Plus I do not think that it can be done. The origional Pankration may have actually looked alot like boxing or kickboxing or wrestling or Muay Thai or Jiujitsu or Chinese Kung Fu. We really do not absolutely know. (I wish we did) What we do know for sure is that the current MMA guys have a lineage to Jiujitsu through Judo to Shooto and BJJ then definately to Muay Thai and Boxing add in some Greco-Roman wrestling and you have today's modern MMA. Is it effective : sure. It is brutally effective in the ring. (that is why everyone is doing it) Can it be effective out of the ring : absolutely! Are there areas outside of the ring that it is weak in : Yep! However, anybody who does MMA and also studies some FMA or Budo Taijutsu or Defensive Tactics, CQC and most importantly firearms is going to be a pretty tough guy to deal with. (if they have the spirit and skills that is)

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't try to draw a lineage at all, too messy Just that No rules / Limited rules matches have almost always been around, as far back as sporting competition goes.

And I imagine Pankration looked fairly similar to MMA. Why? because of the rules. Same reason TKD, Karate and Kung fu all looks basically the same if they all spar under the same rules in the same tournaments.

There are certain things that work and certain things that don't under any given ruleset. Given time everyone will end up at basically the same place.

 

[Odin]

I am not so sure that you can tie current MMA all the way back to Pankration. That seems a little far fetched to me.

The lineage is much easier on the Japanese side because techniques have been carried on and taught in a systematized manner. Therefore we have a very good idea how they trained. Whereas Modern Greco-Roman wrestling I am sure is far, far, far differant from what Pankaration was.
Just my opinion.

I dont i think you can or at least its not far fetched to beleive that two seperate cultures and different points in history thought of the same princibles...im mean leoardo De vinci drew the first concepts behind bycicles yet he didnt invent them,some other dude did a couple years later without ever looking at his work (theres a name for what that is called but since its 8 in the morning here in England i cant remember what it was!lol)

check this out....agian from wikipedia

Etymology

The term comes from the Ancient Greek words "pan" (meaning "all") and "kratos" (meaning "strength" or "power") or in other words, no holds barred. The term is also used to describe the sport's modern varieties.
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Origins

In Greek mythology it was said that the heroes Hercules and Theseus invented the pankration as a result of using both wrestling and boxing, were the two co-founders of panmahia, unarmed combate. The term "panmahia" would later become disused in favor of the term pankration. The ropolo (club) and lion skin armor would also become symbolic among Hellenic warriors due to the famed feats of Hercules. It had numerious forms such as kato pankration, in which the athletes could fall to the ground and continue the match, and ano pankration, in which athletes had to remain standing throughout the match. The competitors could use moves like the gastrizein, (stomach trick), which was a kick to the gut, as well as the apopternizein, (heel trick), where a foot was grabbed to throw an opponent off balance. Also one opponent could hold another and punch him during a match. Pankration was more than just an Olympic event, it formed the basis for all combat training for Greek soldiers - including the famous Spartan Hoplite warriors and Alexander The Greats’ Macedonian Phalanx’s. The techniques varied just as in the oriental martial arts according to ‘style’. Pankration systems were taught within families and many times from master teachers (Thaskalos) to students (Pankratist). The features found were common with the oriental arts such as: Forms or Kata's were known as Pyrrics and single blow challenges as Klimax; internal energy was developed through breathing exercises, the equivalent of ‘Chi’ in Chinese arts, were known as Pneuma. Pneuma primarily denotes the wind (derived from the Greek word pneo which means to breathe, blow); also 'breath'; then, especially the spirit. They also used punching bags and wooded posts for striking and the hardening of the body and limbs, through striking and herbal medicines.
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Elements

Pankration, as practiced in the ancient world, combined elements of both boxing (pygme/pygmachia) and wrestling (pale) to create broad fighting sport similar to today's mixed martial arts. A match was won by submission of the opponent or if the opponent was incapacitated. A contestant could signal submission by raising his hand, but sometimes the only form of submission was unconsciousness or death. Joint locks and choke holds were common techniques of accomplishing this. In fact, there were only two rules: contestants were not allowed to gouge eyes or to bite. Grave, even permanent injuries were common, as an accepted means of disabling the adversary: mainly breaking limbs, fingers or even the neck. Pankration bouts were quite brutal and sometimes life-threatening to the competitors. There were no weight divisions and no time limits. The fighting arena or "ring" was no more than twelve to fourteen-feet square to encourage close-quarter action. Referees were armed with stout rods or switches to enforce the rules against biting and gouging. The rules, however, were often broken by some participants who, realizing they were outclassed by a heavier and stronger foe, would resort to such measures to escape being seriously maimed. The contest itself continued uninterrupted until one of the combatants either surrendered, suffered unconsciousness, or, of course, was killed. Although knockouts were common, most pankration battles were decided on the ground where both striking and submission techniques would freely come into play. Pankratiasts were highly-skilled grapplers and were extremely effective in applying a variety of takedowns, chokes, and punishing joint locks. Strangulation was most feared during ground combat, and was the leading cause of death in matches. A fighter would immediately raise his arm in defeat once his opponent's forearm had secured a firm grip across the windpipe or carotid artery.
If there was no winner by sunset, the judges would declare Climax and the fighters would start taking alternating undefended blows until one was defeated.

A bronze smaller reproduction in Munich of a Roman marble after a 3rd c.BC Greek depiction of pankratists grappling and striking


Ancient sculptures and pottery paintings depicting naked pankration fighters show blade-like hands and crouches reminiscent of modern fighting systems.
The feats of the ancient pankratiasts became legendary in the annals of Greek athletics. Stories abound of past champions and masters who were considered invincible beings. Arrichion, Dioxippus and Polydamas are among the most highly-recognized names, their accomplishments defying the odds by besting multiple armed opponents in life-and-death combat.
Among pankration fighters, Dioxippus was the most famous. He won several Olympic games as no one dared challenge him, became friends with Alexander the Great and was challenged by one of Alexander's soldiers named Coragus who fought with weapons and full armour, but was still defeated by the almost unarmed Dioxippus, whose only weapon was a club. Later, the ashamed Macedonians framed Dioxippus for theft, after having introduced a golden cup under his pillow, which led him to commit suicide.

• In the lead-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, a modern version of pankration (not naked, usually wearing only shorts or a type of loin cloth, sometimes also T-shirts) was tipped as being a new sport in the Olympiad, especially due to its being an event in the ancient games. However, its application (along with that of inline skating) was not approved. Rumours were that it was rejected due to its inherently violent nature, even though the modern version is significantly less violent than the original, and like boxing and wrestling also ancient Olympic sports, there is an international set of humane rules governing the modern sport.

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Influence

Because of Alexander the Great's impact on the Middle East and India, there is belief by some that cultural exchange may have occurred in these civilisations. It has been suggested that the fighting systems of India were influenced by the invasions of Alexander, but this has not been substantiated by firm scientific evidence. It is very likely that the Indians already had their own systems of fighting like Silambam Nillaikalakki and Kalarippayattu. It is still unknown what cultural influence he may have had on India. A thorough anthropological study of this history would be required.
Pankration's influence on modern culture is still debatable as the modern version of Pankration is not the original form as practiced by the ancient Greeks. The original ancient Greek form of Pankration was not fully transmitted to later generations due to the fall of the Greek and Roman civilisations and the subsequent Dark Ages of western Europe. Most modern versions of Pankration are influenced by western boxing, catch and freestyle wrestling, ancient Greek artifacts(i.e. pottery, vases, sculptures, writings), as well as East Asian martial arts like karate, kung-fu, jujitsu, and muay thai.
Advocates for the sport have formed a US Pankration Team, and it is possible that a modern version of the sport could be re-introduced into the Olympics in the future.
Some modern pankration groups are seeking to re-introduce classical Hellenistic culture into contemporary martial arts (sport, athleticism, philosophy, ethics and all round personal development). One such system of "contemporary" Pankration, known as "Gonis Pankration," was founded by Boston attorney George Gonis in the mid-twentieth century.
There is a novel titled Pankration by Dyan Blacklock, which focuses on the Sport. Another detailed and historically accurate novel that focuses on the Pankration and the Ancient Greeks is "PATRIDA" by Peter Katsionis. Patrida: A Novel of the Pankration

 

[Adept]

As I said 2 rules no eye gouging no biting unless it was Spartan than there were no rules

Well, of course there were other rules. Like; Only two people per fight. No weapons (I assume). Limited to the fighting arena, etc.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, of course there were other rules. Like; Only two people per fight. No weapons (I assume). Limited to the fighting arena, etc.

Yes it was fought in an arena and yes there where no weapons. These are rules much the same as any match today. But during the match the only 2 things that were not allowed in all but Sparta were biting and eye gouging. Everything else was ok including kicks to the groin or anywhere else as well as joint locks basically anyrhing goes except those 2 items.

Note on lineage to Pankration, doubtful.

And the current MMA by far has more rules

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not think we know actually how close pankration in Greece was to modern day MMA. Rules may and probably were different, hand postures, fists, etc may have been different. (I seem to recall a spear hand to an armpit in one match that killed an opponent), we do not even know how the grappling looked.

Just take for instance todays systems : Japanese Jujitsu is definately differant than Brazilian Jiujitsu. Judo is different then both of these systems. (yet still some similarities) Shooto is different than all of the above. Boxing is different than shall we say Muay Thai and on an on.
We do not know exactly how the Greeks fought in Pankration matches. We possibly do know from the historians that they fought one on one and that sometimes death did happen. After that well as to how they moved we do not know.

 

[Slihn]

Hello guys. I am the starter of this thread and I just wanted to say that I did not intend for there to be this much arguement about the subject.My apologies to out to anyone who was offened in any way by any post made in this thread.
I think that perhaps I titled this thread wrong, instead I should have put, "What are the advantages of Modern/MMA and TMA.(and when I say Mordern I am not just talking about MMA,what I mean by mordern is a school that teaches how to apply its methods in a mordern day setting,against mordern day fighters)" Having Traditional and Mordern ideals clash was not my intention,my intention where to discuss what we can learn from both methods.

I personally think that both Modern/MMA have many things that we can learn from,but I would rather us share to make improve each of or own individual skills and not fight over whose method is superior over the other.

-Good Training

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do not think we know actually how close pankration in Greece was to modern day MMA. Rules may and probably were different, hand postures, fists, etc may have been different. (I seem to recall a spear hand to an armpit in one match that killed an opponent), we do not even know how the grappling looked.

Just take for instance todays systems : Japanese Jujitsu is definately differant than Brazilian Jiujitsu. Judo is different then both of these systems. (yet still some similarities) Shooto is different than all of the above. Boxing is different than shall we say Muay Thai and on an on.
We do not know exactly how the Greeks fought in Pankration matches. We possibly do know from the historians that they fought one on one and that sometimes death did happen. After that well as to how they moved we do not know.

Very true.

We only have limited historical records to go by. And as far as history knows some of the matches did end in death. It actually sounds more like hand-to-hand combat than a sporting event from what I am reading.

And BJJ comes from Judo and it looks very little like it's historical lineage Judo or its historical name Jujitsu. But in this case the history is a little easier to check out and there are still people around practicing all 3. As for Pankration, it is all speculation based on what little historical record we have of it.

 

[zDom]

- Brazil 1920s Gastao Gracie becomes friends with Mitsuyo Maeda who is a Judo Champion from Japan

- Mitsuyo Maeda trains Gastao Gracie's Son George for 6 years

- George trains his brothers Helio ,Jorge, Osvaldo, and Gastao Jr.

And yet, they insist on calling in jiu-jitsu...

The “Gracie Challenge’ Began and a revival of Mixed Martial Arts. Called valo-tudo (anything goes) fighting. This was basically Gracie Style Jujitsu taking on all comes from any Martial Art. They did successfully defeat all comers.

Um...didn't Kimura win?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Um...didn't Kimura win?

Of that I am not certain, what I was reading did not mention any victors, but I would not be surprised if there were a few that did.

And I have never understood why it was called Jujitsu. Nothing against BJJ, I just never understood the name.

 

[Brother John]

MMA is not "Pankration"...
it just bears a striking similarity (for all that we know)


Your Brother
John

 

[zDom]

Something I wrote on this subject not too long ago:

http://news.mywebpal.com:80/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpid=865&show=archivedetails&ArchiveID=1209054&om=1